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Jaak

Lords Paramount in Small Council

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Cersei orders Tommen to memorize list of all Hands. We cannot.

Some of the attested Hands were Paramount Lords:

Orys Baratheon, for 7 years. He did not then get to take over Storm´s End, because handjob is with the king... presumably Queen Argella was carried off to King´s Landing, thus stripping Storm´s End of Durrandons.

Edmyn Tully, 7-9.

Rogar Baratheon, 48-50

Ormund Baratheon, 259-260

Tywin Lannister

Jon Arryn

Eddard Stark

again Tywin Lannister

Mace Tyrrell

So, since 267 AC, the 6 non-paramount hands have held office less than three years between them

At Small Council, Martyn Tyrell was Master of Coin - but the Hand was then Barth. Rodrik Arryn, however, was Master of Laws.

Under Robert, Renly was Master of Laws - again making two Paramounts at Small Council.

Mace Tyrell was Master of Ships under Joffrey. Again making two paramounts at Small Council.

How common is several paramounts at Small Council?

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Jaehaerys I apparantly had a Lord Baratheon, Lord Tyrell, Lord Tully and Lord Arryn on his council which seems a bit much. But I guess this was the time when the Great Councils took place.

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During the reign of Jaehaerys I they were repeatedly looking for council candidates among the great lords first. Possibly part of the conciliatory approach of the Conciliator. However, this was apparently not the approach of the Conqueror, Aenys, Maegor, Viserys I, Aegon II, or Rhaenyra.

I expect some great lords - or men from the great houses - will sit also on the Small Councils of the later kings, but I don't think it will be too many of them.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

However, this was apparently not the approach of the Conqueror, Aenys, Maegor, Viserys I, Aegon II, or Rhaenyra.

I expect some great lords - or men from the great houses

Different implications.

And Conqueror´s two first Hands were Paramounts. Notably, Orys did not take over Stormlands as present.

Eddard Stark wanted to "always have a Stark at Winterfell" and had Robb to leave behind. Jon Arryn did not care (and was at first out of Arryns), and left Nestor Royce for Castellan. Renly Baratheon was out of Baratheons and left Courtenay Penrose.

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8 hours ago, Jaak said:

Different implications.

And Conqueror´s two first Hands were Paramounts. Notably, Orys did not take over Stormlands as present.

Listing kin of a king as lords paramount seems to be problematic to me. Neither Orys nor Renly were lords paramount in their own right, they were granted their seats and titles as a gift from their royal (half-)brothers, and they did not sit as lords paramount on the council or served as Hands but as families the king (thought he) could trust.

In essence, this kind of thing is nothing but nepotism. And we can that even extend to Edmyn Tully who wasn't a lord paramount in his own right, either. He owed his new status to King Aegon, and a word from him would have made another man the lord paramount of the Trident. A Tully on the council one two centuries would be a different case.

8 hours ago, Jaak said:

Eddard Stark wanted to "always have a Stark at Winterfell" and had Robb to leave behind. Jon Arryn did not care (and was at first out of Arryns), and left Nestor Royce for Castellan. Renly Baratheon was out of Baratheons and left Courtenay Penrose.

It is quite clear that not all the great lords think it necessary or even wise to leave their children or other kin behind when their are called to court to serve in high office. Just think of Lord Manfryd Redwyne who brought all his sons to KL, leaving the Arbor in the hands of some other person, a relation or just some trusted retainer, Otto Hightower, Unwin Peake, even Tywin Lannister tried to install his family and friends in powerful positions at court.

But, overall, I think the implication we have is that the kings didn't really care to have too many great lords on their council. Due to their rank and station their names often came up as suitable candidates, but they were apparently rarely chosen. And we can, I think, be reasonably certain that especially the Lannisters and Starks rarely, if at all, rose to high office in KL after the Dance. The Starks tried to stay out of the southern affairs as best they could, and the Lannisters were usually sidelined by the Iron Throne because they were too powerful and thus potentially dangerous. Tyland Lannister was only allowed to serve as Hand because people thought he was broken - and while he wasn't broken, his physical appearance made it pretty much impossible for him to try to rise too high.

One could see more Arryns on the council, especially since a son of Daeron II was married to another Arryn, and there are, of course, the Baratheons - the Laughing Storm could have been on Aegon V's council, possibly even his Hand, until Duncan married Jenny. But with the latter we have to take their temperament into account. Most from that bloodline don't seem to be well-suited give sage advice or occupy themselves with the tedious business of day-to-day ruling. I'd be surprised if a Tyrell ever served as Hand prior to Mace Tyrell. There could have been more Tully Hands, though. I expect Kermit Tully to serve Aegon III as Hand for a time, and perhaps some others as well.

But there should be more Hands and council men from those Crownlands and Riverlands houses which have traditionally strong ties to House Targaryen - Velaryon, Celtigar, Massey, Darklyn, Stokeworth, Rosby, Darry, Mooton, and the various lords of Harrenhal. Overall, it seems men from those houses were mostly running the Realm.

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@Lord Varys can one accuse a system built on the divine right of a family to rule of nepotism? It is kind of redundant isn't it? The Targaryens made their family members part of their small council since before they called it a small council. Not really news that a dynasty started by a brother and his sisters/wives with the help of their half brother liked to keep things within the family and bequeathed that tradition to later generations.

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10 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

@Lord Varys can one accuse a system built on the divine right of a family to rule of nepotism? It is kind of redundant isn't it? The Targaryens made their family members part of their small council since before they called it a small council. Not really news that a dynasty started by a brother and his sisters/wives with the help of their half brother liked to keep things within the family and bequeathed that tradition to later generations.

Oh, I just wanted to point out that choosing family members who also happen to be great lords isn't exactly the same thing as granting great lords who don't happen to be (close) kin similar positions. Orys and Renly did not become council members/Hand because they were powerful men in their own right, they were made powerful men - both great lords and council men - because the king did trust them because they were family.

This not the same as bringing in great lords because they are great powers in their own right and you want to hear their voices on the council - which seems to be what Jaehaerys I did by bringing in Redwynes, Arryns, Tyrells.

And we do see that the Targaryens have always viewed certain great houses with suspicion - the Lannisters, especially, but the Hightowers, too, before and after the Dance (but before that, too, there was a reason why Jaehaerys I did not name Donnel the Delayer to his council). And the debacle that was Rogar Baratheon underlines that trusting the Baratheons is always a mixed bag - Aegon II had to learn that later, too. It seems to me that Tywin could only become Hand as a Lannister because he was close friends with the future king - and that due to his grandfather's close connection to Aegon V which, one assumes, goes directly go back to the fact that he married Rohanne Webber.

I expect a less conciliatory approach to council appointments to not first consider the great lords but immediately jump to either royal favorites (bad approach) or men who are known to be competent in the field you want them (good approach).

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