[Spoilers] Episode 803 Discussion

[briantw]

20 minutes ago, Anarres said:

It's been the central focus of seven seasons of Game of Thrones, though.

That, and the drama it generated among human beings - each with stories, histories, conversations, motivations, faults, etc.

Fighting zombies is not nearly as interesting, and even though you can make any old premise cool if you tell the story well, it's still just going to be hordes of zombies.

I think the two stories will tie into each other in the books, as I think Euron is pretty obviously serving the Others and will probably be the one to bring the Wall down after using his hellhorn to bind one of Dany's dragons to him.

No idea where the show is going with him since they stripped away basically everything that makes him interesting in the books and just made him a generic prick.

[#teamNightking]

13 minutes ago, briantw said:

I think the two stories will tie into each other in the books, as I think Euron is pretty obviously serving the Others and will probably be the one to bring the Wall down after using his hellhorn to bind one of Dany's dragons to him.

No idea where the show is going with him since they stripped away basically everything that makes him interesting in the books and just made him a generic prick.

Books? Such optimism. Dance was published almost 9 years ago. 

I fear that if we were getting more books we'd of had at least one by now. 

Sigh. 

 

[Gala]

10 hours ago, Bran the Shipper said:

My first thought after the ending, this can't be canon right?  Did they accidentally send in the wrong version, and that this was one of those fake endings that we heard they shot to discredit leaks.  So if you can't tell, I'm not content with this ending.  I'm also wondering if Martin is done with Winds of Winter and has been for a while but since it has content that discredits the shows take on events, he decided to wait on releasing it until after the show was completely done.

For what I liked about this episode, Dany was a total Boss.  She kicked butt on Drogon and was just pure awesome start to finish.  I loved her standing her ground with Jorah at the end, helping to watch his back as he protected her.  Yes the odds were against them and Jorah sadly didn't make it.  My other favorite moment from Dany (and admittedly I might have misinterpreted it) was her purposefully sliding off Drogon so that he could fly to safety.  She just sacrificed her life to save her boy (considering she was surrounded she couldn't have expected to survive).  Some one give her a 'World's Best Mom' mug.

Other highlights are Jaime and Brienne saving each other multiple times to make it through to dawn.  Also Missandei calling out Sansa's rivalry with Daenerys in the crypts.  The dragons were as a whole pretty good as well.

I think that pretty much sums up what I liked, everything else I didn't.  So yeah, I was not a fan of this episode.

Those that I have emphasized in bold are exactly the thing I didn't like in the episode. By the way, Dany didn't slid off Drogon intentionally, she fell (I have watched the episode twice already) and she was completely terrified and helpless without her dragon (which is fine, since she has no fighting skills at all). And I actually wanted to slap Missandei at that moment, she irritates me since last season and her smug pompous manner. Sansa and Tyrion have long history and they were having their conversation, when she decided to put in her two cents in other people's conversation. I am disappointed she still lives (meaningless and dull character, despite the beauty of the actress and great and meaningful book character).

[#teamNightking]

50 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

It's the Song of Ice and Fire, and it's about the War for the Dawn and the harmony between the forces of ice and the forces of fire. The IT is just a sideshow. 

Subject to interpretation. Jon Snow is ice and fire in a way. 

Or Jon and Daenerys end up with the throne. "Ice and Fire" and have a child. 

What GRRM intended we may never know. 

[Nakraal]

I am positive that the moment Bran and the Night King shared, meant that there is something deeper, something very deep between them there.

But I am afraid that they chose not to reveal what that was, because HBO intents it to be the plot twist for their prequel. Maybe GRRM also didn't want for it to be revealed.

[no_one_...]

3 hours ago, AndréaV said:

Ah, I understand know, sorry.

But her whole family was sacrificed one way or another, does it have to be by her choice? I don't know.... Is there another topic on this? So we don't flood the EP topic on the theories and possibilities of how Arya does or doesn't comply with the AA prophecy?

No worries, fyi there is an "Arya" topic floating around.   The only Stark sacrificed was Ned offering himself to save his daughters, the others were just killed. 

[Zorral]

Perhaps Ayra surprised the NK because she too is dead and resurrected -- how the hell else do we explain how she survived the waif's repeated stabbing in the gut and submersion in that toxic water of Bravos's harbor?  With her training, it seems she can be effectively invisible -- the way she was suddenly there in the Wood, surprising Jon.

 

[Red Dragon10]

49 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

Yeah and with thousands of horses too, yes?

They're cavalry. Cavalry charge. It's what they do. 

All these arm chair generals crack me up like there's a manual on fighting an army of undead. 

If they packed inside the castle shoulder to shoulder and the undead arrived undelayed they would have simply "world war Z'd" the walls in a very short time and the plan would have failed. 

What you are seeing is a series of layered delaying tactics in order for there to be time for the Night King to be lured to Bran and defeated by Jon and Daenerys. 

Killing the Night King was their only hope. They'd never actually win the battle and they knew it. 

 So not standard battle tactics.

Yes, I have to agree.  I actually thought the way the battle played out, made sense.  It was always about buying time to lure the NK in.  Winterfell is not very large and they never could have started the battle from inside its walls.  I do however think that the way they portrayed the wights and the way they swarm and pile up, would have overwhelmed the good guys' forces much sooner.  

Edited April 29, 2019 by Red Dragon10

[Tygett Lannister]

1 hour ago, #teamNightking said:

Yeah and with thousands of horses too, yes?

They're cavalry. Cavalry charge. It's what they do. 

All these arm chair generals crack me up like there's a manual on fighting an army of undead. 

If they packed inside the castle shoulder to shoulder and the undead arrived undelayed they would have simply "world war Z'd" the walls in a very short time and the plan would have failed. 

What you are seeing is a series of layered delaying tactics in order for there to be time for the Night King to be lured to Bran and defeated by Jon and Daenerys. 

Killing the Night King was their only hope. They'd never actually win the battle and they knew it. 

 So not standard battle tactics.

 

 

Stop defending poor writing. Frontal charge with light cavalry is pointless. They should send dothraki to the East or West wait for the dead to hit the infantry and then attack from a side. I mean in the end it really doesn't matters but they should at least try to use them better. 

[Tygett Lannister]

16 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Yes, I have to agree.  I actually thought the way the battle played out, made sense.  It was always about buying time to lure the NK in.  Winterfell is not very large and they never could have started the battle from inside its walls.  I do however think that the way they portrayed the wights and the way they swarm and pile up, would have overwhelmed the good guys' forces much sooner.  

That makes no sense, if they wanted NK to come to Bran and kill him they wouldn't be delaying anything, since the sooner they kill NK less people die. So 'buying time to lure NK to Bran' is complete contradiction. Bring Bran to the frontline and wait for NK to come since he wouldn't let the dead kill him and kill NK. But I don't think that was their plan. Also fighting outside and then defending the castle doesn't really buy more time, if they were defending the castle with full force it would take longer. 

[Bael's Bastard]

19 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Perhaps Ayra surprised the NK because she too is dead and resurrected -- how the hell else do we explain how she survived the waif's repeated stabbing in the gut and submersion in that toxic water of Bravos's harbor?  With her training, it seems she can be effectively invisible -- the way she was suddenly there in the Wood, surprising Jon.

Who knows how/when she got to the Weirwood. But I didn't get the impression that she surprised the NK, and I'm not sure it was even her intent to surprise the NK. Yelling as she flies through the air is hardly covert. It might be giving DnD too much credit, but if Arya had any idea that it might be difficult to kill the NK, then the only way to surprise the NK would be to first let him believe he had stopped her.

[Cas Stark]

22 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Yes, I have to agree.  I actually thought the way the battle played out, made sense.  It was always about buying time to lure the NK in.  Winterfell is not very large and they never could have started the battle from inside its walls.  I do however think that the way they portrayed the wights and the way they swarm and pile up, would have overwhelmed the good guys' forces much sooner.  

They could have lured him in with 1/3 of the force in the field, then, sending ALL the Dothraki to certain death was a horrible and stupid plan if the real plan was to kill him in the godswood, which it wasn't it was to burn him with dragonfire, but it turns out, he must be part Targ, since he's more immune to fire than Stormborn.

[Tygett Lannister]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

They could have lured him in with 1/3 of the force in the field, then, sending ALL the Dothraki to certain death was a horrible and stupid plan if the real plan was to kill him in the godswood, which it wasn't it was to burn him with dragonfire, but it turns out, he must be part Targ, since he's more immune to fire than Stormborn.

Or maybe not everyone is Targ and he is just one really Icey Boi that doesn't melts easily. 

[Bael's Bastard]

I agree that it was unnecessary to "defend" Winterfell with all those people. They could have lured the NK with a Winterfell virtually abandoned save Bran and a handful of others.

[Red Dragon10]

Just now, Tygett Lannister said:

That makes no sense, if they wanted NK to come to Bran and kill him they wouldn't be delaying anything, since the sooner they kill NK less people die. So 'buying time to lure NK to Bran' is complete contradiction. Bring Bran to the frontline and wait for NK to come since he wouldn't let the dead kill him and kill NK. But I don't think that was their plan. Also fighting outside and then defending the castle doesn't really buy more time, if they were defending the castle with full force it would take longer. 

Well the original plan had been to lure the NK in and then burn him with dragon fire.  To have the dragons nearby but not too close to scare him off.  As it turns out, it wouldn't have worked anyway since the dragonfire didn't touch him.  They felt that if they just offered Bran up openly, the NK would not approach and would kill him with wights or another method.  I thought they discussed that last episode?  I'd have to rewatch. 

You realize the armies would not have been able to all fit in within the castle walls, right?  And they would not have been able to use catapult's within the castle walls?  They take up a massive amount of space.  So no, they could not have done everything from inside the castle walls.  

[Red Dragon10]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

They could have lured him in with 1/3 of the force in the field, then, sending ALL the Dothraki to certain death was a horrible and stupid plan if the real plan was to kill him in the godswood, which it wasn't it was to burn him with dragonfire, but it turns out, he must be part Targ, since he's more immune to fire than Stormborn.

I thought it was to burn him with dragonfire *in* the godswood, but I'd have to rewatch. 

Yeah, maybe they could have used a smaller force.  Overall the battle strategy just didn't bother me as much as some other things (Wolverine Arya).  I do think they might have used a more clever strategy instead of a straightforward frontal attack.  On the other hand, these aren't men they are fighting.  I'm not sure if would have mattered. 

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

5 hours ago, TNTW said:

One thing to keep in mind~ the show is called GoT, that is their primary focus. Books obviously ASOIAF, that is endgame. Or at least I hope that is why we have seen things play out the way we have..... Otherwise will be very disappointed.

Agree with this.

[briantw]

1 hour ago, #teamNightking said:

Books? Such optimism. Dance was published almost 9 years ago. 

I fear that if we were getting more books we'd of had at least one by now. 

Sigh. 

I think we'll definitely get Winds, and I suspect it will be announced shortly after the show ends.  

Obviously more dubious we'll get Dream, although maybe once Martin ties up a lot of the loose plot threads that have been slowing him down he'll be able to get through Dream quicker.  Probably not but who knows?

[Ice Queen]

44 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Perhaps Ayra surprised the NK because she too is dead and resurrected -- how the hell else do we explain how she survived the waif's repeated stabbing in the gut and submersion in that toxic water of Bravos's harbor?  With her training, it seems she can be effectively invisible -- the way she was suddenly there in the Wood, surprising Jon.

 

Jon is dead and resurrected, and the NK was aware of him a mile away. 

[Ice Queen]

2 minutes ago, briantw said:

I think we'll definitely get Winds, and I suspect it will be announced shortly after the show ends.  

Obviously more dubious we'll get Dream, although maybe once Martin ties up a lot of the loose plot threads that have been slowing him down he'll be able to get through Dream quicker.  Probably not but who knows?

Wouldn't that be nice. I'm not counting on it, but it's nice to think about.