[Spoilers] Episode 803 Discussion

[greensleeves]

4 minutes ago, longest night said:

A Mary Sue is a perfect, idealized character that does everything perfectly without the training necessary to do it. Rey and Wesley Crusher are both examples of this.

A Mary Sue is an author-insert, wish fulfillment... which usually what that second plot I described is doing. (Sometimes it's reader wish-fulfillment).

[Ras1983]

The biggest problem isn't that Arya killed the Night King, it's that the character of the Night King was under utilised and the resolution to his arc ended up being unfulfilling given the many years of build up. There was a lot of lore that could have been incorporated into the story ahead of him being killed by Arya at a later stage, with the victory having cost the main characters a lot more than it did.

For example, they could have had him win the battle of Winterfell and then either move onto KL (if he were totally focussed on destroying humanity) or the Isle of Faces (if he wanted to end his torment and reverse whatever the CotF did to him).

Or they could have had the 'green men' from the Isle of Faces show up at some point to help defeat the Night King after half of Westeros had been conquered.

Or the battle of Winterfell could have been a feint, with the Night King having sent the bulk of his army to KL.

Or the crypts in Winterfell could have been broken open, with the dead Starks going on a murderous rampage.

As it stands, years of build up have come to naught. The Night King appears to have been a silly tactician (remember, he had 8000 years to plan for this), Arya's character is going to have the legacy of having killed the Night King cheaply, and the whole White Walker threat ended up not being much of a threat to most of the realm.

And finally, the whole idea that the Night King's aim was to remove human memory by eliminating the three eyed beings is just, well, kind of small minded given the many other possibilities that the writers could have chosen.

 

[Greenmonsterff]

Sorry if this has already been asked, I’m not reading 400 comments to find it. Right before Arya shows up to kill Night King there’s a close up of Bran looking at NK and then looking down like something caught his eye. Then NK turns head sideways like a confused dog. Camera goes to random WW who also looks like something else has caught his attention. Then flying Arya comes in with the failed kill shot that accidentally actually became the kill shot. Was everyone being distracted by Arya’s arrival or was this in slow motion or what? 

[Frances Bean Corbray]

I'm still not over how Cersei was validated for continuing to play the game of thrones and disregarding the existential threat in the hopes that it would never get to her/only wreck her rivals' shit.

Underwhelming that the Walkers ended up only ever being the "Northern Problem" the south always wrote them and all Wall drama as.

[Red Dragon10]

9 minutes ago, Greenmonsterff said:

Sorry if this has already been asked, I’m not reading 400 comments to find it. Right before Arya shows up to kill Night King there’s a close up of Bran looking at NK and then looking down like something caught his eye. Then NK turns head sideways like a confused dog. Camera goes to random WW who also looks like something else has caught his attention. Then flying Arya comes in with the failed kill shot that accidentally actually became the kill shot. Was everyone being distracted by Arya’s arrival or was this in slow motion or what? 

Nobody knows what the 'look' between Bran and the NK was about.  I'm hoping that there is something...just..MORE going on, so that Bran warging through the whole battle is worthwhile, and so that there is just a larger story going on than:  the NK dies.  Threat over.  The end.  Or maybe Bran just looked at the NK that way because he knew that Arya was coming.  And the NK was like "shouldn't you be afraid right now?" 

You can see a wind ruffling the WW's hair..I'm assuming that was Arya.  I just don't GET how she did it.  Did she just super-speed run by?  Did she suddenly master invisibility?  Anyway, the WW thing was definitely to do with Arya zipping past somehow. 

[LucyMormont]

1 hour ago, greensleeves said:

So some people are complaining that Rhaegar not interpreting a prophecy correctly makes the story 'unfulfilling' somehow...

...but that's literally one of the most classic story arcs out there:

1. Character hears a prophecy
2. Character commits all kinds of horrible acts as a result
3. It turns out the character interpreted the prophecy incorrectly (lol hubris)

It's a great narrative (and one GRRM is fond of).

It also serves as good counterpoint to the most overused, overhyped plot out there:

1. Boy is just an ordinary guy who gets picked on... poor him
2. ... but wait! Turns out boy is actually super special because of prophecy/secret birth/random unearned thing

When women are the heroes of this kind of plotline it's called 'Mary Sue'. 

I'm not sure if Arya will be *the one* who saves humanity from the WW in the books, but having Jon turn out to be a savior figure would be deeply cliche in the worst way. Jon can still be a hero and have a great story arc without being a prophesied savior of humanity.

Anyways, now I hope we finally get a War of Three Queens.

But the point is to have the prophecy fulfilled in an unexpected way, showing why prophecies and visions are a "dangerous thing", as Mel had to learn the hard way. But when you  make  them impregnate the whole story, only to drop them in  the last minute, that's just crappy writing. That's to mock your viewers.  They 've thrown through the window the whole Jon's arc, and also Bran's. I don't know what Bran purpose was. I feel cheated.

As far as I'm aware, in the show who brought the PtwP prophecies was Mel, not Rhaegar. And her visions in past seasons DID happen, only that not in the way she expected. She saw "a great victory outside Winterfell" in the flames, and that happened, but not when she saw it and not with Stannis. THIS is the way to treat prophecies, not what they've done now.

Edited April 30, 2019 by LucyMormont

[longest night]

12 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

But the point is to have the prophecy fulfilled in an unexpected way, showing why prophecies and visions are a "dangerous thing", as Mel had to learn the hard way. But when you  make  them impregnate the whole story, only to drop them in  the last minute, that's just crappy writing. That's to mock your viewers.  They 've thrown through the window the whole Jon's arc, and also Bran's. I don't know what Bran purpose was. I feel cheated.

As far as I'm aware, in the show who brought the PtwP prophecies was Mel, not Rhaegar. And her visions in past seasons DID happen, only that not in the way she expected. She saw "a great victory outside Winterfell" in the flames, and that happened, but not when she saw it and not with Stannis. THIS is the way to treat prophecies, not what they've done now.

Yep, one has to actually show how the prophecies were fulfilled incorrectly. The books do this with Melissandre interpreting Stannis as Azor Ahai, and as Stannis is marching on Winterfell, she can "only see Snow" when looking for him in the flames. Meaning the visions led her to Jon through Stannis.

Everyone knows what happened with D&D's choice. The fans knew it was Jon that was TPTWP, and they knew that because of the book readers. Unlike GRRM, who said he would never change things because they correctly guess something, D&D did just that. They chose Arya because it would be "unexpected", their words. So now instead of the slow build up of Jon's story arc leading him to the confrontion of D&D's Night King, we get Deus ex Arya. Often the expected happening is story fulfillment of what is promised by the author.

Edited April 30, 2019 by longest night

[Greenmonsterff]

15 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Nobody knows what the 'look' between Bran and the NK was about.  I'm hoping that there is something...just..MORE going on, so that Bran warging through the whole battle is worthwhile, and so that there is just a larger story going on than:  the NK dies.  Threat over.  The end.  Or maybe Bran just looked at the NK that way because he knew that Arya was coming.  And the NK was like "shouldn't you be afraid right now?" 

You can see a wind ruffling the WW's hair..I'm assuming that was Arya.  I just don't GET how she did it.  Did she just super-speed run by?  Did she suddenly master invisibility?  Anyway, the WW thing was definitely to do with Arya zipping past somehow. 

I think Bran and Arya were somehow in cahoots. He went into white eye mode for a long time, and just came out when NK was a few feet away to tell Theon he was a good boy, etc. He had to have been working something out to help save the day.

[longest night]

1 minute ago, Greenmonsterff said:

I think Bran and Arya were somehow in cahoots. He went into white eye mode for a long time, and just came out when NK was a few feet away to tell Theon he was a good boy, etc. He had to have been working something out to help save the day.

The only thing we saw Bran warg were some ravens.

[Greenmonsterff]

4 minutes ago, longest night said:

The only thing we saw Bran warg were some ravens.

Methinks he was doing much more than warging ravens. I bet there is more information coming from Bran about it soon.

[MinscS2]

That Ramin Djawadi is a musical genius shouldn't be news to anyone, but that piece that played towards the end when the NK is approaching Bran is simply put...amazing.

It's haunting and ominous, yet strangely beautiful and uplifting at the same time.

Edit: Found it. It's basically Light of the Seven 2.0.

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by MinscS2

[Quillon]

50 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

That Ramin Djawadi is a musical genius shouldn't be news to anyone, but that piece that played towards the end when the NK is approaching Bran is simply put...amazing.

It's haunting and ominous, yet strangely beautiful and uplifting at the same time.

 

I've noticed it for it was too similar to the piece at Mass Effect 3's ending, Unrelatedly it was a shit ending that caused a lot of controversy

[nymeria_2321]

I'm rather torn on my feelings for this episode.  It was good in that I was on the edge of my seat the whole time and it was suspenseful, I didn't know what was going to happen. But one big issue was I could barely tell what was happening! I have a ~60" new 4K Samsung TV, watching it in at least 1080p, I was sitting a few feet away, we spent time adjusting our TV settings and I wore my glasses (which I usually only need in like lecture theatres) and I was still squinting half the time being like "ok some dark blobs just did a thing" or "some thing just happened to some person, I think". I mean its crazy that they had this director who's known for some of the most visually stunning battles in this series (Jon being charged by a wall of horses and riders in Battle of Bastards), they had the budget, they filmed for like 60 days or something and then in the end decided they wanted it so no one could see anything?!

Knew Theon was going to die, but it was nicely done. Jorah ... tear to my eyes, great death. Lyanna, I know it was just fan service, but I thought that was great. Surprised Grey Worm made it, thought he was a goner for sure. The Tyrion and Sansa moment was sweet. I'm glad to see Ghost survived (though really wish he would have been used), and the dragons.  Poor Edd .... 

The battle "strategy" was disastrous, why weren't the dragons mowing down dead people beforehand and lighting up the field so people could see. Why wasn't there more fire used as means of protection/blockade ?  I read somewhere this was more like a horror movie than a battle/action sequence and for me it was because in horror movies you're always yelling "No you idiot don't go in the basement" and I was yelling at my TV plenty. 

Bran is worthless/useless. Don't know why NK even cared about him, so what if he can see all of history - rest of the world never even knew about 3ER so whats the point of him (as opposed to a written account of history like at the citadel). He just warg'ed into some crows, for what? He didn't relay any relevant information about the NK or the battle, didn't use the crows to drop fire or anything. The whole bran thing I just don't get, his purpose apparently just to know about Jon's parentage but now we question why that matters (see below). 

I'm conflicted on the Arya thing. I mean it was unexpected, which while watching was cool, and she is a badass character. But it just makes me wonder what the point of Jon is/was and knowing his parentage. I always thought his parentage - the big secret and reveal of the whole show - was important not so that he could have a claim to the throne but because he was special, he was the prince that was promised and would be the one to defeat the AotD or NK. The whole build up can't really be just so he can "legitiamely" rule the 7 seven kingdoms can it?? And its a bit disappointing that the final showdown, the big ending of this magical legendary tale is about defeating CERSEI- some chick who went batsh*t crazy.

Don't really understand how Dany and co supposed to go fight Cersei now, as looks like Dothraki basically gone, Unsullied basically gone, and northern army (and the vale army) basically gone, and no other allies with armies/fighters except for maybe in Iron Islands. Unless she really is just gonna go full dragon fire and burn Cersei in the red keep, I don't see how they could mount an offensive against 20,000 GC (who are rested and healthy unlike our northern friends). 

Overall, a bit disappointed, but definitely need to watch it again 

[Remember]

3 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

Nobody knows what the 'look' between Bran and the NK was about.  I'm hoping that there is something...just..MORE going on, so that Bran warging through the whole battle is worthwhile, and so that there is just a larger story going on than:  the NK dies.  Threat over.  The end.  Or maybe Bran just looked at the NK that way because he knew that Arya was coming.  And the NK was like "shouldn't you be afraid right now?" 

You can see a wind ruffling the WW's hair..I'm assuming that was Arya.  I just don't GET how she did it.  Did she just super-speed run by?  Did she suddenly master invisibility?  Anyway, the WW thing was definitely to do with Arya zipping past somehow. 

I'm rewatching this scene right now, and the look is frustratingly going to go unanswered I'm sure. It's almost like Bran purposely conveyed strength/confidence with his dead stare to give away the fact that he had a secret plan, just so the NK would realize it at that moment. I'm sure the NK thought he had foiled it when he caught Arya in the midst of her 50" vertical leap to kill him. 

[Nihiloth90]

4 hours ago, longest night said:

Unlike GRRM, who said he would never change things because they correctly guess something, D&D did just that. They chose Arya because it would be "unexpected", their words. So now instead of the slow build up of Jon's story arc leading him to the confrontion of D&D's Night King, we get Deus ex Arya. Often the expected happening is story fulfillment of what is promised by the author

Except it wasn't even a real fight. She sneaks up behind him and stabs him with a weapon that causes his body to shatter. There were so many things in this episode that screamed 'anti-climactic.' I wouldn't want to see Jon Snow be the one to actually kill the Night King, I just would have liked to see a proper fight; perhaps it being many of the fighters vs. Night King all at once. Hell, some of the fighters could have been given a cool fight scene vs. a White Walker or something. Instead, we get all these shots spliced together where you can't tell where people are for much of the battle, and many characters seemingly teleport to difficult locations. Many of these characters also have thick as hell plot armor on-- they're out on the front lines in the thick of it and NONE of them die.

So, for guys who said they aspired to create massive battle sequences that would either match or beat Peter Jackson's Oscar-winning LotR cinematography, they did not do a good job with this. There are so many good fights that could have occurred here. They blew it, honestly. A battle of this scale, and it being humans vs. monsters; you had a LotR quality battle that could have been as amazing as the climax to Minas Tirith.

Three episodes left of more drama surrounding the bloody throne. Can't say I'm thrilled about that.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Nihiloth90

[cirah1712]

15 hours ago, Nightwish said:

Is there any explanation offered why the NK wants personally to kill Bran? 

Yes, the Night King wants an endless night, to erase the living and all memory of the world so far, Bran is the worlds memory, so he is the best person to kill, as it will erase most of the memory of the world. 

[Kyll.Ing.]

I actually wonder if the reason why the Night King didn't fight Jon is because his costume doesn't allow for excessive movement. Turning around and slowly raising his arms might be the most acrobatic maneuver the actor was able to pull off, and I could see them cancelling a swordfight because of that. Well, that and budget.

Another random thought: No matter how one looks at it, Sam must be a lord now. Either, he is free from his Night's Watch duties and has inherited the seat of the Tarlys (Daenerys would probably acknowledge that without problems), or he's the sole remaining member of the Night's Watch and therefore Lord Commander by default. Or possibly both, which would make administration of his lands pretty awkward.

Speaking of lords, there sure aren't as many of them around as there was by the start of the series. How many houses have functional leadership at the moment? Stark, Royce, Greyjoy and Lannister? Possibly Arryn, Tarly and Clegane too? And as mentioned, the estates of the Night's Watch are empty, plus all of the land that has been made available beyond the Wall. Jon and Daenerys could probably give lands and a castle to every survivor in Winterfell at this point, and there are probably still a few deaths left and houses to be erased.

[nara]

11 hours ago, longest night said:

There's just a various number of questions I have.

1. Why did Bran need Jon to know about his father and mother right at that moment? Wouldn't that indicate his birth was important to the upcoming battle or the defeat of the Night King? Which is exactly what was suppose to have happened. Yet here we are, nothing from it. 
2. Why has every vision that Bran has had to specifically to do with Jon? Yet again, nothing came of it.
3. Why was Bran waiting for Jaime, yet Jaime had no major part in the War for the Dawn?
4. What was Bran doing exactly when he warged those ravens? We never actually saw him do anything, but he stayed that way for awhile.
5. Where is Yohn Royce and the knights of the Vale? Last we saw him he was with Sansa.
6. Why did so many major characters survive?
7. Why is Bran alive if his character arc is complete?

1.  Maybe he needed to know in case Sam and Bran died in the battle

3. Bran was just waiting to forgive Jaime to end his redemption arc. Probably Jaime plays a bigger role in final battle and Westeros moving forward and needed to have closure with Bran to do so.

2 hours ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

Speaking of lords, there sure aren't as many of them around as there was by the start of the series. How many houses have functional leadership at the moment? Stark, Royce, Greyjoy and Lannister? Possibly Arryn, Tarly and Clegane too? And as mentioned, the estates of the Night's Watch are empty, plus all of the land that has been made available beyond the Wall. Jon and Daenerys could probably give lands and a castle to every survivor in Winterfell at this point, and there are probably still a few deaths left and houses to be erased.

I think that the reason so many of the named characters have survived is to do just that.

iron islands— Yara

North — Sansa 

westerlands — Tyrion 

Vale — Robin

Riverlands — Edmure

stormlands — Gendry (and Arya?)

Reach — Brienne and Jaime (they’ve shown a desire to give fans what they want so Jaime + Brienne is definitely happening, though I don’t like that)

Dorne — Greyworm and Missandei

Last Hearth — Tormund

[Sibly]

Varys had a huge role to play in this episode! Ghost had more lines than he did.

[Coffeewiththegods]

9 hours ago, Greenmonsterff said:

Methinks he was doing much more than warging ravens. I bet there is more information coming from Bran about it soon.

I want to believe you and agree but, everytime anyone on here has ever speculated on anything the show has proven otherwise.