[Spoilers] Episode 803 Discussion

[maiden of tarth]

On 4/29/2019 at 3:33 AM, Ser Yorick Ampersand said:

Extremely disappointed. Everything in this episode is so bad. Couldn't see half of it because it was too dark.

I got even more disappointed after watching the preview for next week.

I'm done with the show.

Morbid curiosity is all that has held me as a viewer since they killed Barristan Selmy. 

[Blackfyres R Legit]

9 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

But the point is to have the prophecy fulfilled in an unexpected way, showing why prophecies and visions are a "dangerous thing", as Mel had to learn the hard way. But when you  make  them impregnate the whole story, only to drop them in  the last minute, that's just crappy writing. That's to mock your viewers.  They 've thrown through the window the whole Jon's arc, and also Bran's. I don't know what Bran purpose was. I feel cheated.

As far as I'm aware, in the show who brought the PtwP prophecies was Mel, not Rhaegar. And her visions in past seasons DID happen, only that not in the way she expected. She saw "a great victory outside Winterfell" in the flames, and that happened, but not when she saw it and not with Stannis. THIS is the way to treat prophecies, not what they've done now.

I totally agree, especially with Bran. It's cheapened Mira's sacrifice, Jojen's sacrifice, Hodor's sacrifice, Summer's sacrifice and I'd even say the TCOTF and the old 3-eyed Raven too, to a degree. I feel like I've been punched in the mouth. 

In terms of Mythic Prophecies in fantasy-type lore, the way Star Wars handled the matter is still best. Anakin Skywalker did ultimately bring balance to the Force, just not in a way that anyone would have wanted or expected.

[Obsidian Knight]

It's good that Melisandre came to bring some light to this episode so we could see something.  

The battle strategy was very strange. Dragons could do much more. They coud actually burn the dead ones at least. I like the scene with Dothraki running to their death though it was useless. They would be much more useless without those burning arakhs. Dany could be more wise not to doom all her army. Dragons should be those who start the action. 

This episode was too epic for my taste. The battles like Loot train attack, Wildlings versus Night's Watch or The battle of bastards gave me shivers. This battle didn't. They saved all the main characters. Killed some not so important ones like Edd. Just to kill somebody. Maybe the battle wasn't so impressive because I waited for this battle since the Episode 1. And it's always awkward when everything comes to an end. So the battle was funny and serious in the same time. I'm happy the WW plot is finished.
I still cannot understand why WW were roaming in the rooms of Winterfell? Couldn't they seal or lock all the doors? How did they gnaw into the crypts? I was all for "more epic" sake and I didn't like it. Also Theon's epic death. Daenery's fighting beside poor Jorah. I knew Beric would die. His death was the best one in this episode (except NK of course).

I'm disappointed. The battle even seemed boring sometimes. Maybe I should watch it once more.

[Arya's Sideboob]

14 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Apparently fighting with a staff while blind of a few months makes you most trained fighters in the show. Unlike half the characters that trained fighting for their entire life. 

Nothing awesome about Arya, unless you think murdering people and baking them into pies is awesome. 

Ummm...yes?!

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

On 4/29/2019 at 9:08 AM, divica said:

The only way to have any story is for Cersei to kidnap either Jon or Danny. 

In the show I bet we will have a super silly plot about a small groups of people going inside kl to kill Cersei and her pal while the rest fight a battle in order to distract her armies 

Lame as this sounds this is gonna happen 

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

the Books are the books and the show is the show.  They are two different telling of the same story, using two different mediums.  Yes the show has simplified the books and gone of tracks with it.  By watching the show (this episode especially), I cannot wait for the last two books to come out.  

Now onto the episode.  A lot of people are complaining that the war was over too quickly.  If they broke the battle up, you would lose the emotion and adrenaline of it.  Plus there are only three episodes left, so they needed to resolve it.  Arya killing the Night King was a surprise, but it was awesome.  Maybe she killed him because when she stabbed him. The piece of dragonglass was forced out.  All in all, from and show only standpoint, it was a excellent episode.

I know this is a long post, so i have one more thing to say.  Did anyone else realize that they had someone from almost every part/continent of Palnetos fighting in the battle.  They only place that didn’t have any representation was The Riverlands.  The whole planet came together to fight the Army of the Dead.

Edited April 30, 2019 by TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai

[House Cambodia]

15 minutes ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

Lame as this sounds this is gonna happen 

I don't think it will simply because that would be a LOTR rip-off and GRRM expressly distances himself from that.

[House Cambodia]

9 minutes ago, TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai said:

the Books are the books and the show is the show.  They are two different telling of the same story, using two different mediums.  Yes the show has simplified the books and gone of tracks with it.  By watching the show (this episode especially), I cannot wait for the last two books to come out.  

Now onto the episode.  A lot of people are complaining that the war was over too quickly.  If they broke the battle up, you would lose the emotion and adrenaline of it.  Plus there are only three episodes left, so they needed to resolve it.  Arya killing the Night King was a surprise, but it was awesome.  Maybe she killed him because when she stabbed him. The piece of dragonglass was forced out.  All in all, from and show only standpoint, it was a excellent episode.

I know this is a long post, so i have one more thing to say.  Did anyone else realize that they had someone from almost every part/continent of Palnetos fighting in the battle.  They only place that didn’t have any representation was The Riverlands.  The whole planet came together to fight the Army of the Dead.

Dorne? Second Sons (Daario could have popped over like Melisandra did)?

[Kyll.Ing.]

3 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I don't think it will simply because that would be a LOTR rip-off and GRRM expressly distances himself from that.

He also expressly distanced himself from the "dark lord" archetype like Sauron, the only-evil entity that comes out of the dark with only killing in mind, and whose entire army will fall if he is defeated. That didn't stop the show writers from running with the trope to the letter.

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, Kyll.Ing. said:

He also expressly distanced himself from the "dark lord" archetype like Sauron, the only-evil entity that comes out of the dark with only killing in mind, and whose entire army will fall if he is defeated. That didn't stop the show writers from running with the trope to the letter.

True dat, but the thought of two ickle diminutives like Tyrion and Arya sneaking in to do the final deed is just too cheesy to contemplate.

[Ghosts Lunch]

Have mixed feelings,

10/10 for the Director, I loved the camera angles from the start following the various people and he really knows how to flow well

10/10 for the music

10/10 for the actors effort and performance

I have a big issue with the tactics employed. At the same time I can see that it is a visual medium and half is there for psychological impact, eg the Dothraki charge was military stupidity at its height but there is a certain terror element being conveyed seeing all the Lights of the swords snuffed out.

It’s stupid to have Vale and other Professionals outside of the Walls but can understand they are going for the dread of unstoppable swarm vs toing and froing of two armies battling it out and strategically outmaneuvering eachother

My issue is with the writing, they didn’t properly flesh out the NK arc. I can buy the Wights he raised would die but not the WW’s who were living beings.

I’m fine with Arya delivering the final blow with the VS dagger sent to kill Bran with, but should have been more like Howland Reed while NK was fighting someone else amidst the fog pitched battle in the Godswood rather than a Ninja leap past all of the WW’s etc

We basically had Night King and Wights, we were missing the middle layer of the White Walkers and the Generals

People felt the Lyanna Mormont was lame fan service but I didn’t mind, this was the spot were Wun Wun busted through, and Jon picked up a Mormont shield to abosrb Ramsays arrows so it’s arguably a nice callback. Plus having the smallest person on Battlefield vs largest was a good meta reflection for the balance of power and odds between the armies

What I would have liked
*Put Jaimie, Brienne, Ser Jorah and other Valyrian Steel holders in fights against White Walkers at time to illustrate the point of the leader of each House having a VS blade as tradition

*”There must always be a Stark in Winterfell”. Have Mel tell Sansa she needs to be in the Crypts, as a matter of duty. Reason being perhaps that the nearby presence of a Stark prevents the old Kings of Winter rising as Wights and negates the WW magic. That way we can understand why Starks were fine with burying their dead as opposed to burning like everyone else. I’m not sure if that was dead Stark Kings or Wights tunnelling into the crypts?

*Have Mel bring Dawn into the Battlefield with her (Arthur Daynes sword) having fetched it from Dorne (explains where she’s been). Give it the bonus properties that it not only has the ability to neutralise the WW weapons like VS, but being from a Comet etc and perhaps lit on fire during the battle. Have this sword have the ability to actually turn the tables and shatter the WW weapons, that way we see the mix of Ice and Fire (Longclaw and Dorne) come to the fore annd Jon can charge through the WW’s on way to the Godswood

*”His is the song of Ice and Fire”. So we saw Jon can get burned in the Episode where he saved Jeor Mormont, but Have Jon immolated by Viserion Ice Fire, and in a twist on the NK being immune to Jon, Jon ends up being immune to Viserion and have Jon kill White Walker Dragon Viserion. This way we get some explanation as to the magical properties of the Ice/Fire bloodline mix and why it was necassary for Rhaegar to annul marriage and get with Lyanna Stark specifically and leave 2 best Kingsguard at Tower of Joy rather than at battle of Trident

*”Delve into NK backstory, make him a Stark, that way things really are brought full circle more properly and it is easier to understand why the climactic battle with WW’s had to be at Winterfell, and why it was a female Stark (arbiter of life etc) who had to kill him ala Eowyn with Witch King of Agmar Naazgul in LOTR for example”

Edited April 30, 2019 by Ghosts Lunch
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[#teamNightking]

2 hours ago, Obsidian Knight said:

The battle strategy was very strange. Dragons could do much more.

I'm pretty sure they were planning to use them to abush the night king and his dragon 2 against 1 when he went for Bran. Holding them back. 

Dany changed the plan when the Dothroki fell. 

Also the plan was for Drogon to light the trench but the blizzard became too strong and she couldn't see. 

At a rough estimate of even 1000 undead burnt per breath attack at 100k zombies it would have required many many strafing runs to make a dent and that's before the second wave was raised. Every run being exposed to surprise attack from NK and undead dragon and or white walker lances potentially. 

Dany really should have tried to hatch more dragons in the preceding years ; )

[Ghosts Lunch]

2 hours ago, Blackfyres R Legit said:

I totally agree, especially with Bran. It's cheapened Mira's sacrifice, Jojen's sacrifice, Hodor's sacrifice, Summer's sacrifice and I'd even say the TCOTF and the old 3-eyed Raven too, to a degree. I feel like I've been punched in the mouth. 

In terms of Mythic Prophecies in fantasy-type lore, the way Star Wars handled the matter is still best. Anakin Skywalker did ultimately bring balance to the Force, just not in a way that anyone would have wanted or expected.

Tbf the Prince/Princess that was Promised could be plural and relate to a team.

 

When Robbs Kingdom was declared Arya and Sansa became Princesses and Bran and Rickon became Princes. John has secretly been the Crown Prince of Rhaegar

 

So everyone is involved and not a single person

 

As for Azor Ahai, could relate to post Others/Night King

 

Still was a bit daft with the Ninja leap, would have preferred pitch battle and Arya pulling a Howland Reed while Night King fighting Jon or something

 

I an understand they needed to tie Theons arc up with the "Thank You", but can still see how it was a slap in the face to Meera. Perhaps it has something to do with Bran getting better control.

 

Rather than mere watching, perhaps Bran could have at least warged the Ravens, have them perch on Drogon and Rhaegal and screech "Left" or "Right" and "Fire" to navigate them through the storm. He also could have warged a Direwolf or better yet Nymeria and have the Wolf Pack surge upwards from the Riverlands

 

As I've said above, I'm fine with Arya delivering the blow, but they really should have done better with explaining the NK was an Ancient Stark and it required a female Stark plus a VS blade to completely undo him, a VS blade tempered by Dragonfire might not have worked if Dragon Fire itself did not work

Edited April 30, 2019 by Ghosts Lunch

[#teamNightking]

11 minutes ago, Ghosts Lunch said:

I can buy the Wights he raised would die but not the WW’s who were living beings

In the show doesn't the Night King create the WW from Craster's sons using some kind of magic? So maybe when he fell they fell. But was that all the white walkers? I'm not sure

[Red Dragon10]

18 minutes ago, Ghosts Lunch said:

I’m not sure if that was dead Stark Kings or Wights tunnelling into the crypts?

I think they were dead Stark's. 

[Ghosts Lunch]

8 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

In the show doesn't the Night King create the WW from Craster's sons using some kind of magic? So maybe when he fell they fell. But was that all the white walkers? I'm not sure

Yeah, and maybe it "undoes the magic", issue there though is when the CotF died then Benjen should have come "undone" and perhaps even the Night King himself?

 

It's not entirely clear how this was all supposed to work, if he was transformed/powered by Dragonglass then Drogon fire could have perhaps re-melted it in his chest?

 

Crasters Sons were their own Living Beings before being transformed, so unlike the Wights who are dead and seem to be operating on Wi Fi and then conk out when the Modem White Walker who raised them dies, I'd think they would still keep living independently of the Night King?

 

Let's not forget the glaring weakness then that an Anguy could have sniped him with an arrow with a Valyrian Steel arrow head 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Ghosts Lunch

[TheValonqarThatWasAzorAhai]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

Dorne? Second Sons (Daario could have popped over like Melisandra did)?

Jon Snow was born in Dorne.  From Essos, the Dothraki and some Unsullied.  Tormund from North of the Wall.  From Sothryos Missendi (I know she didn’t fight) and some of the Unsullied.  Jon and Dany brought everyone together to fight the Army of The Dead.

[Ghosts Lunch]

4 minutes ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I think they were dead Stark's. 

Yeah that was my initial impression, then it seemed they were coming through the Walls, so wasn't sure if this was like them tunnelling into Tree Cave

[Bran Snow]

7 hours ago, Nihiloth90 said:

Except it wasn't even a real fight. She sneaks up behind him and stabs him with a weapon that causes his body to shatter. There were so many things in this episode that screamed 'anti-climactic.' I wouldn't want to see Jon Snow be the one to actually kill the Night King, I just would have liked to see a proper fight; perhaps it being many of the fighters vs. Night King all at once. Hell, some of the fighters could have been given a cool fight scene vs. a White Walker or something. Instead, we get all these shots spliced together where you can't tell where people are for much of the battle, and many characters seemingly teleport to difficult locations. Many of these characters also have thick as hell plot armor on-- they're out on the front lines in the thick of it and NONE of them die.

So, for guys who said they aspired to create massive battle sequences that would either match or beat Peter Jackson's Oscar-winning LotR cinematography, they did not do a good job with this. There are so many good fights that could have occurred here. They blew it, honestly. A battle of this scale, and it being humans vs. monsters; you had a LotR quality battle that could have been as amazing as the climax to Minas Tirith.

Three episodes left of more drama surrounding the bloody throne. Can't say I'm thrilled about that.

A Jon and Arya double teaming the NK scene would have been pretty cool to watch.

[Bran Snow]

4 hours ago, nara said:

1.  Maybe he needed to know in case Sam and Bran died in the battle

3. Bran was just waiting to forgive Jaime to end his redemption arc. Probably Jaime plays a bigger role in final battle and Westeros moving forward and needed to have closure with Bran to do so.

I think that the reason so many of the named characters have survived is to do just that.

iron islands— Yara

North — Sansa 

westerlands — Tyrion 

Vale — Robin

Riverlands — Edmure

stormlands — Gendry (and Arya?)

Reach — Brienne and Jaime (they’ve shown a desire to give fans what they want so Jaime + Brienne is definitely happening, though I don’t like that)

Dorne — Greyworm and Missandei

Last Hearth — Tormund

I just want to see Tormund get a castle. All the crap he gives Jon about "Southern" lords and he ends up being one too.