[Spoilers] Episode 803 Discussion

[Cas Stark]

I really think that the death of the NK was poorly done.  At the very least there should have been some fake out, some coordination between a couple of the main characters.  Maybe Jon confronts the NK in the gods wood, and Arya jumps in at the last minute, or Bran is the one who kills the NK, something, anything but what happened.

I would also argue that the idea that Arya's story has been about learning to be an assassin to go and assassinate someone, so this is the culmination of her story is an unbelievably superficial reading of her character and arc.

Edited May 1, 2019 by Cas Stark

[divica]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I really think that the death of the NK was poorly done.  At the very least there should have been some fake out, some coordination between a couple of the main characters.  Maybe Jon confronts the NK in the gods wood, and Arya jumps in at the last minute, or Bran is the one who kills the NK, something, anything but what happened.

I would also argue that the idea that Arya's story has been about learning to be an assassin to go and assassinate someone, so this is the culmination of her story is an unbelievably superficial reading of her character and arc.

But the thing is that faceless men aren t super masters of weapons that kill people because their amazing weapon skills.

They use disguises, poisons, spying and things like that… Arya being a faceless men doesn t make her the best weapon's master in the world… It doesn t justify that she should be the one to kill the NK because she is an assassin and even less justifies her doing it the way she did.

As you said, it would make sense if arya was disguised and while the NK was fighting with several people she would sneak behind him and stab him. But we needed the other characters to do things that justified their story arcs so far! 

And I just can t see arya not having a major role in the battle of KL and at the same time don t want her to do anything special… It will just be meme material...

[Caligula_K3]

1 hour ago, divica said:

First, there is a diference between having an universe where everything can happen and spending years saying how important some characters to fight the NK and having suspense building for a conflict only to have jon, bran, danny and the dragons doing noting noteworthy.

And in grrm world all profecies come true, it just might not be in the way people expect them. Speaking about the profecy of tptwp for seasons only to when the time comes simply ignore it and go for a WOW moment is horrendus writting. I mean, we had mel talking about the profecy to danny last season and this year we are suposed to Forget about it? It is like people aren t even trying to write a coherent story...

Arya killing the NK alone is something completly undeserving taking into account the story arcs of jon, bran and danny. Arya's arc is related to assassinate people on her list and balancing being arya stark with no one. She should have an importante role in the battle of KL. It is what makes sense in her story.

What happened in the episode just made bran becoming the 3er completly useless What does he even do? What was the point of creating all the hype between jon and the NK if they never fight? (it is the same as if the mountain and the hound are ready to cross sword and sudenly tormund kills the mountain) why was it importante for danny to come north? She just gave a dragon and her dothriaki to the NK while she was lost in a fog half the ep… What did jon do in the battle that his entire story in got prepares him for?

The Stallion that Mounts the World is going to conquer Westeros any day now... After all, it was prophecied.

The prince who was promised prophecy has always been much vaguer in the show than the books. Even so, I doubt we'll ever be getting an answer in either medium about who exactly it is and their intended role.  If their intended role is made clear, maybe it's to unify most of  humanity against the White Walkers. And many characters in the books fit the description of a potential prince... on purpose, I argue, because the point is going to be that there's nobody who exactly fits this prophecy. And nobody, at the least, is actually going to be revealed to be Azor Azai and get a magical sword after killing their lover.

I agree that I wish Jon, Dany, and especially Bran had done more in the battle. Bran especially; his role in the plot needs to be justified more than Dany and Jon, who have already done important things, like gathered allies for the battle, discovered how to kill white walkers, secured obsidian for their army, used dragons, etc... They will also have important things to do in the political endgame of the show, with Jon being the heir to the throne, Dany wanting to take it, etc...

Where I really disagree with you is that a character's arc has no point if they don't have some climactic battle with their enemy. Sure, this is a way of resolving a character's arc; deaths in fiction can be satisfying and cathartic when they are killed by someone who they've wronged or had many interactions with before. In ASoIaF, the Tickler and Arya comes to mind, as does Tywin and Tyrion. But, fiction is a varied thing, and GRRM for one has recognized quite correctly that it quickly gets boring if all deaths can be seen from twenty miles away, like a checklist. And so, Drogo is killed by a wound he gets anonymously in the battle and turned into a lifeless zombie by a witch we met a chapter earlier; Joffrey is killed by Olenna Tyrell, not Tyrion or Sansa, whom he spent two books tormenting. You might as well ask what was the point of all the scenes of Joffrey torturing Sansa if she doesn't get to kill him or have a sword fight with him. 

 Similarly, there's no reason why Arya's arc needs to be exclusively about king's landing assassinations; it in fact became clearly not completely about that last season, when she chose to abandon her quest for vengeance to return home and be with her family. And from a narrative standpoint, it makes complete sense that the Night King would avoid fighting Jon, whom he's seen kill a  white walker, but not be on the lookout for a sneaky assassin. But again, the execution left something to be desired.  

Edited May 1, 2019 by Caligula_K3

[A_S]

Didn't find a discussion about this, but I didn't get what the zombies were doing in the library with Arya? Were they some dead librarians come to life or what the hell? Every other zombie was going around killing people and they were just there walking around and putting books on shelves?

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, A_S said:

Didn't find a discussion about this, but I didn't get what the zombies were doing in the library with Arya? Were they some dead librarians come to life or what the hell? Every other zombie was going around killing people and they were just there walking around and putting books on shelves?

I saw it as a pointless horror trope - teenage girl alone, dark corridors, zombies. At best it was to show Arya using her 'maneuver in the dark' skills she learned in Braavos.

[immamonsterrr]

I did have a bit of grip with the darkness of the battle, mostly because of the surprise snowstorm that just kept me guessing which dragon was which. And to me, the cinematographer's defensive stance of saying it wasn't too dark is kinda like not owning up to the issue. 

After the Arya-Gendry scandal, I was on board the theory that they'd rule the Iron Throne. But her defeating the NK so easily like that was too unrealistic for me, up to that point, I honestly thought the battle was going to lead to more deaths because of how hopeless it looked (especially when the NK raised the dead the second time). So when no one major died, I was quite disappointed since this was the battle that was hyped to make everyone think they wouldn't be able to survive.

Gripping for sure but weak resolution, seems to just want to fuel dramatic effects (CUE NINJA ARYA).

5 minutes ago, A_S said:

Didn't find a discussion about this, but I didn't get what the zombies were doing in the library with Arya? Were they some dead librarians come to life or what the hell? Every other zombie was going around killing people and they were just there walking around and putting books on shelves?

I felt like that scene was inspired by The Walking Dead of some sorts. Maybe it was to show that no one survived and so these wights were there to add to the horror and suspense of the episode. But with an obliterated army, I wonder how they are going to take on Cersei/Euron. Where are they going to get their troops from? Yara? 

 

[Heartofice]

The Library scene I think was a mistake. As tense as it was, in an episode where there is an intense battle going on outside, where there should be this crushing level of momentum, they decided to break all that for a standard scene from Walking Dead. It ruined the flow of the episode quite a bit. I found all the interior scenes odd.. why was it so quiet? 

[MoonKnight21]

Is nobody else bothered that the two groups of people of colour were killed off immediately? Tone deaf writers? No? Just me then.. 

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, MoonKnight21 said:

Is nobody else bothered that the two groups of people of colour were killed off immediately? Tone deaf writers? No? Just me then.. 

In fact I got into quite a spat with a terribly sensitive poster who got mortally offended that I mentioned a touch of non-existent racism in the show. Here: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153862-those-kids/&page=3

[House Cambodia]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

why was it so quiet? 

What, in a library? With dead people? And a silent assassin? 

 

Seriously, it was a pretty pointless scene, I think just to show off Arya's FM 'I can see and move in the dark' credentials, making it more plausible that she could later creep up on the NK.

Edited May 1, 2019 by House Cambodia

[Heartofice]

1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

What, in a library? With dead people? And a silent assassin? 

Lol yes. 

All of the castle was "dead" quiet though.

[VladLXXXI]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:35 AM, rumple9 said:

When they are riding the dragons it looks like an old Flash Gordon B-movie

:) I thought the same. But Flash battle was more entertaining.

[VladLXXXI]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:40 AM, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I thought I saw him among the survivors at the end; but I'm not sure.

Saying "saw" is pretty strong word.... 90% of the action was a mess

[MoonKnight21]

18 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

In fact I got into quite a spat with a terribly sensitive poster who got mortally offended that I mentioned a touch of non-existent racism in the show. Here: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153862-those-kids/&page=3

Read through it. I agree with how you interpreted that scene, I also intepreted it that way. I actually applauded the writers for including that scene, like you said " a touch of non existant racism."

Was thoroughly disappointed in this battle scene though, when the Dothraki and Unsullied were wiped out. Two of the greatest armies in this universe and they were used as fodder.

I always perceieved this show as a global show that spoke to audiences from all parts of the world, mostly because of the inclusivity of the people of Essos and Dorne etc. This episode kind of did an injustice to all those characters. 

[VladLXXXI]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:43 AM, bran stark overdrive said:

Yes, Arya is Azor Ahai/TPTWP. It was subtly confirmed by Melisandre throughout the episode, beside the fact that Arya killed the Night King with a Valyrian steel weapon, thus fulfilling the prophecy. Melisandre knew it the moment she saw Arya on the rampart. She knew it when Beric died saving Arya ("the Lord of Light brought him back for a purpose, that purpose is now fulfilled") and she knew it when she came face to face with Arya- "green eyes, brown eyes, *blue eyes*" (blue eyes referring to NK) was Melisandre telling Arya who she was, immediately afterward Arya went straight for NK. Melisandre killed herself because her purpose (finding and assisting Azor Ahai) was fulfilled, albiet at the last possible moment.

....yeah....what a lazy stupid simple writting. Very convenient. Seriously... how long did they think about it...5min?

[House Cambodia]

3 minutes ago, MoonKnight21 said:

I always perceieved this show as a global show that spoke to audiences from all parts of the world, mostly because of the inclusivity of the people of Essos and Dorne etc.

Hmm, not really. The 'North Africans' of Dorne were represented in quite a civilized manner, but Mongols and slaves are not the most positive representations of Asia (where I live). The barely-mentioned third continent of Sothyros is populated by negroid cannibals. Ultimately, this is all GRRM's creativity that D&D recreate in the show.

[VladLXXXI]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:44 AM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Ok, two questions:  One

1.  Did Ghost make it?  I am not sure>

2.  Am I the only one that thought Jon was trying tame Undead Viserion at the end there?  LOLOL  The way he sprang up and just YELLED in his face reminded me of Dany taming Drogon in Daznik's Pit? 

Ghost was killed off screen together with Dothraki.... He is really not important for the showrunners.

The scene with Jon and Viserion was just a hopeless writting.... They really dont know what to do.

[MoonKnight21]

5 minutes ago, VladLXXXI said:

Ghost was killed off screen together with Dothraki.... He is really not important for the showrunners.

The scene with Jon and Viserion was just a hopeless writting.... They really dont know what to do.

I think I saw Ghost in the preview for episode 4

[#teamNightking]

3 hours ago, VladLXXXI said:

The scene with Jon and Viserion was just a hopeless writting.... They really dont know what to do.

Should have at least had him draw his sword and attack. It is Valaryan steel. Maybe has a Chance. 

But yelling was less "empowering" I guess. So they went with that. 

Overall Jon has become, to me, a bland and uninspiring character and it's kinda sad. 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by #teamNightking
Sp

[hallam]

7 hours ago, A_S said:

Didn't find a discussion about this, but I didn't get what the zombies were doing in the library with Arya? Were they some dead librarians come to life or what the hell? Every other zombie was going around killing people and they were just there walking around and putting books on shelves?

They are zombies. They attack any living on sight but just wander around when they are not seeing anyone.

It makes perfect sense to have the zombies patrol the library to keep out any fighters trying to reinforce Theon.