[Spoilers] Episode 803 Discussion

[Winterz]

On 5/1/2019 at 10:20 PM, longest night said:

Jaime's story is his redemption arc. He completed it.

To be fair... how has Jaime changed? Just 2 episodes ago, he stated all he did was for his House and that he would do so again.

Just like that, they stroke all his character development and it no longer seems like he's redeemed. And killing a pregnant woman in order to complete a prophecy would certainly not fit into either that redemption arc or the show's ways.

[Winterz]

On 5/1/2019 at 9:14 AM, MoonKnight21 said:

Is nobody else bothered that the two groups of people of colour were killed off immediately? Tone deaf writers? No? Just me then..  

What groups of color? The show wanted to get rid of them in order to fill their own stupid plot. Now Dany appears as the army-less Queen.

Also, getting rid of the Dothraki horde helped in saving budget.

[The Dragon Demands]

Rejoice.

 

the tide has turned

 

 

 

[Roux]

Why is this the first time you see Dany wielding a sword? Every young King and Lord since the dawn of time has trained with a sword. they sit there and say that every man woman and child on bear island and the whole North will train and train but somehow Dany who is sooooooooo important doesn't learn how to defend herself besides hiding behind Jorah and flailing. she wants to change the way people see her as a woman but she won't be strong enough to defend her own body. 

[Winterz]

1 hour ago, Roux said:

Why is this the first time you see Dany wielding a sword? Every young King and Lord since the dawn of time has trained with a sword. they sit there and say that every man woman and child on bear island and the whole North will train and train but somehow Dany who is sooooooooo important doesn't learn how to defend herself besides hiding behind Jorah and flailing. she wants to change the way people see her as a woman but she won't be strong enough to defend her own body.  

To be fair, she was never meant to become a leader. But when she did, it was because of her Dragons. And with her Dragons came her elite retinue. With all that going for her, there was no point in training for combat.

But then again, she's not much of a leader either. Not a politician or a warrior, just a girl who managed to wake dragons.

I know the fans love to hype her up, but even the show doesn't do any job in making her look more than that. She's immature and irrational.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Winterz

[darmody]

8 hours ago, Roux said:

Why is this the first time you see Dany wielding a sword? Every young King and Lord since the dawn of time has trained with a sword. they sit there and say that every man woman and child on bear island and the whole North will train and train but somehow Dany who is sooooooooo important doesn't learn how to defend herself besides hiding behind Jorah and flailing. she wants to change the way people see her as a woman but she won't be strong enough to defend her own body. 

Doesn't learn how to defend herself? She's killed more zombies than anyone living. She has killed scores of men. All because she's a dragonrider, not a swordswoman. 

I don't know about the combat training of queens-to-be in Westeros, but remember Danny was not the supposed heir apparent. Viserys was. He apparently was familiar with the fundamentals of carrying a sword. He had authority over Danny and I can see no reason why he'd have her train with a sword. 

 

There isn't much need for a queen to know how to fight. And it's not as though hiding behind Jorah is anything to be ashamed of. Unlike Joffrey hiding behind Cersei's skirt. 

If it weren't for the fact that no one else can fly Drogo, she shouldn't even be at Winterfell. There is no reason to put her in harm's way. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by darmody

[Roux]

1 hour ago, darmody said:

Doesn't learn how to defend herself? She's killed more zombies than anyone living. She has killed scores of men. All because she's a dragonrider, not a swordswoman. 

I don't know about the combat training of queens-to-be in Westeros, but remember Danny was not the supposed heir apparent. Viserys was. He apparently was familiar with the fundamentals of carrying a sword. He had authority over Danny and I can see no reason why he'd have her train with a sword. 

 

There isn't much need for a queen to know how to fight. And it's not as though hiding behind Jorah is anything to be ashamed of. Unlike Joffrey hiding behind Cersei's skirt. 

If it weren't for the fact that no one else can fly Drogo, she shouldn't even be at Winterfell. There is no reason to put her in harm's way. 

Except it's been like 5? Years since Viserys died, she's been trying to prove herself worthy in all the ways except that when things get hairy she's helpless. Jorahs shown up at the last second or Drogon showed up to carry her out of Mereen when she was running out of people to hide behind. Daario could've done her (and Missandei) in when he snuck in seasons ago. Yes she has big dragons. Yes she has big armies. But she should still have the ability to protect herself. Arya got sick right away of hiding behind others- plus she sucked at it- when it came time for action. There's literally nothing whatsoever  to be lost by learning. She doesn't worry like Sansa about being a 'proper lady'. 

[LadyOlenna]

On 5/2/2019 at 7:11 PM, #teamNightking said:

If Theon had just saved 1 more dragonglass arrow. Wouldn't have had to suicide himself in a quarter mile spear charge. 

Might have even been the one to save the day. 

I don't think he would have died. He was killed with Valyrian steel, non Dragonglass. A Valyrian steel dagger with dragonbone hilt, maybe that matters too...

[MinscS2]

(Yes, another "How LotR and GoT are similar"-post.)

It's already been mention how the big evil in LotR (Sauron) was defeated before the lesser evil (Saruman) and the cleansing of the Shire, which seemingly is the same way that GoT will end with the NK being defeated before Cersei.

However, there are some interesting parallels between the Battle for Winterfell and Battle for Minas Tirith as well.
The main protagonists ultimately did very "little" in both these battles:

In LotR; Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas take part in the battle but at the end of the day, they simply kill goons. 
Their main contribution is bringing important allies to the fight, be they the Rohirrim or Dead Men of Dunharrow, etc.
Ultimately, the main bad guy of that battle (Witch King of Angmar), who has seemingly up to that point been viewed as immortal, is killed by the tomboy "I am no man" Eowyn. (The battle is more detailed in the books, but I wont delve into them.)

With the Battle of Winterfell in fresh memory, this does seem very familiar.
 

[#teamNightking]

4 hours ago, LadyOlenna said:

I don't think he would have died. He was killed with Valyrian steel, non Dragonglass. A Valyrian steel dagger with dragonbone hilt, maybe that matters too...

Well, we know for certain dragon glass kills the white walkers. But Valaryan steel is "magic" so who knows. 

[Talking Hodor]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:32 AM, The Map Guy said:

Lame episode. The books don't have a night king for a reason. Too easy.

And Mel & Arya never met in the books!!

Are people still comparing the show to the books? They're two different stories. Just try to enjoy what you have. Otherwise the books are going to be awfully boring if or when they finally arrive.

Moreover, the books don't have a Night King yet. We have no idea what's in the Land of Always Winter. The books do mention Night's King, the Great Other, the Drowned God's nemesis, etc., and both show and book have Craster sacrificing children to the Others a.k.a. White Walkers. Plus if GRRM has any hope of finishing his story before he turns 130, he's gonna have to create an antagonist capable of being brought down by a deus ex machina or a Maguffin, as the shows did, seeing as how they're on a much tighter schedule than he is.

I think the story told in the show so far has been great. All the prophecies GRRM wrote don't necessarily have to be about the same person. Arya could be the last hero, Daenerys could be Azor Ahai, and Jon could be the Prince that was Promised. That's the thing with prophecy. It's much more enjoyable once everything has happened and the prophecy becomes obvious.

The last three episodes are going to be awesome for those who keep an open mind.

 

[olibar]

Was Arya somehow invisible when she arrived at the Godswood?

In the shot immediately preceding Arya attacking the Night King, there is a shot of the White Walker entourage at the outskirts of the Godswood.  In that shot, we see a WW have his hair blown towards the NK with a whoosh sound, and its eyes dart around as if looking for something that it can't see.

Arya then appears and attacks the Night King.

Was Bran somehow able to either turn her invisible or otherwise hide her from the WWs as she approached the NK?  Or could this be a Faceless Man ability that Arya somehow tapped into after her meeting with Mellisandre?  

[Deminelle]

6 minutes ago, olibar said:

Was Arya somehow invisible when she arrived at the Godswood?

In the shot immediately preceding Arya attacking the Night King, there is a shot of the White Walker entourage at the outskirts of the Godswood.  In that shot, we see a WW have his hair blown towards the NK with a whoosh sound, and its eyes dart around as if looking for something that it can't see.

Arya then appears and attacks the Night King.

Was Bran somehow able to either turn her invisible or otherwise hide her from the WWs as she approached the NK?  Or could this be a Faceless Man ability that Arya somehow tapped into after her meeting with Mellisandre?  

She could take a "face" of a WW, because they are all dead?

[Roux]

30 minutes ago, olibar said:

Was Arya somehow invisible when she arrived at the Godswood?

the whole point of being blind the whole point of her faceless man training and just her from the get-go what Syrio taught her what shes always been is she she hides in hallways and listens to people she sneaks up on people that's what she does- how she protects herself without all the brawn and muscle of being a knight sized muscle man.

PLUS she knows that godswood better than any of those walkers. She would know every tree even though they've grown some she knows where the stream is and how to move in the snow even though it's been a while since she was in the North. There's a significant amount of time between her jumping through the window and her arriving. Bran knew she was coming he knew all of this the whole time, that's why he just sat there, because he knew how it would end. I don't doubt that she was there when Theon killed himself (just calling the play, y'all) she was just waiting until the moment when he separated himself enough that she could attack. They're arrogant effers too, they would think that their mere presence would keep anybody away. They've killed all the ironborn they don't have anybody else to worry about. 

[darksellsword]

Anyone notice how there is a chink in the NightKings armor right at the spot where the Children of the forest pushed the dragonglass into his chest? very convenient right? 8000k years and he never found armor that covers his one vulernability, it's almost as unlucky as when he had the opportunity to attack an unprepared North for over 3 weeks with his new ice dragon before Danys forces arrived and he didn't know about it?

[olibar]

2 hours ago, Roux said:

the whole point of being blind the whole point of her faceless man training and just her from the get-go what Syrio taught her what shes always been is she she hides in hallways and listens to people she sneaks up on people that's what she does- how she protects herself without all the brawn and muscle of being a knight sized muscle man.

PLUS she knows that godswood better than any of those walkers. She would know every tree even though they've grown some she knows where the stream is and how to move in the snow even though it's been a while since she was in the North. There's a significant amount of time between her jumping through the window and her arriving. Bran knew she was coming he knew all of this the whole time, that's why he just sat there, because he knew how it would end. I don't doubt that she was there when Theon killed himself (just calling the play, y'all) she was just waiting until the moment when he separated himself enough that she could attack. They're arrogant effers too, they would think that their mere presence would keep anybody away. They've killed all the ironborn they don't have anybody else to worry about. 

Def agree that she was waiting for the moment the NK arrogantly went up to Bran alone, and even thought that Bran may have communicated that to her before hand.  And it's definitely believable that she could have hid in the godswood waiting for them to arrive.  The invisibility thing was really just a weird thought I had from looking at the shot just before she kills NK.  It really seemed like something invisible moved past one of the WWs and thought it would be totally cool if either Arya had learned to turn herself invisible or that Bran somehow was able to do it to her.  

Either way, I'm guessing we'll find out more details about those last moments tonight!

[Cas Stark]

3 hours ago, Roux said:

the whole point of being blind the whole point of her faceless man training and just her from the get-go what Syrio taught her what shes always been is she she hides in hallways and listens to people she sneaks up on people that's what she does- how she protects herself without all the brawn and muscle of being a knight sized muscle man.

PLUS she knows that godswood better than any of those walkers. She would know every tree even though they've grown some she knows where the stream is and how to move in the snow even though it's been a while since she was in the North. There's a significant amount of time between her jumping through the window and her arriving. Bran knew she was coming he knew all of this the whole time, that's why he just sat there, because he knew how it would end. I don't doubt that she was there when Theon killed himself (just calling the play, y'all) she was just waiting until the moment when he separated himself enough that she could attack. They're arrogant effers too, they would think that their mere presence would keep anybody away. They've killed all the ironborn they don't have anybody else to worry about. 

He should have maybe told Theon to hold up for a couple minutes then.  

I don't dispute that Arya had the skills to sneak into the godswood, I dispute that a decent resolution to the story of the White Walkers is Arya doing a ninja move and killing the NK without a word between he and Bran and with Jon and Dany both MIA.

[Winterz]

 

2 hours ago, olibar said:

Def agree that she was waiting for the moment the NK arrogantly went up to Bran alone, and even thought that Bran may have communicated that to her before hand.  And it's definitely believable that she could have hid in the godswood waiting for them to arrive.  The invisibility thing was really just a weird thought I had from looking at the shot just before she kills NK.  It really seemed like something invisible moved past one of the WWs and thought it would be totally cool if either Arya had learned to turn herself invisible or that Bran somehow was able to do it to her.   

Either way, I'm guessing we'll find out more details about those last moments tonight!

If she's invisible, why jump? And where did she learn all that and how to be so skilled with every weapon? And how did she manage to go through a castle full of berserk zombies? And how did she go through the army of zombies and superhuman White Walkers?? And if she knew of the NK's weak point, why did she try to hit him somewhere else the first time?

[The Map Guy]

11 hours ago, Talking Hodor said:

Are people still comparing the show to the books? They're two different stories. Just try to enjoy what you have. Otherwise the books are going to be awfully boring if or when they finally arrive.

Moreover, the books don't have a Night King yet. We have no idea what's in the Land of Always Winter. The books do mention Night's King, the Great Other, the Drowned God's nemesis, etc., and both show and book have Craster sacrificing children to the Others a.k.a. White Walkers. Plus if GRRM has any hope of finishing his story before he turns 130, he's gonna have to create an antagonist capable of being brought down by a deus ex machina or a Maguffin, as the shows did, seeing as how they're on a much tighter schedule than he is.

I think the story told in the show so far has been great. All the prophecies GRRM wrote don't necessarily have to be about the same person. Arya could be the last hero, Daenerys could be Azor Ahai, and Jon could be the Prince that was Promised. That's the thing with prophecy. It's much more enjoyable once everything has happened and the prophecy becomes obvious.

The last three episodes are going to be awesome for those who keep an open mind.

D&D can do their own thing. I will still watch it. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I just have no choice for a visual adaption of ASOIAF.

But anything GRRM will write for TWOW and ADOS will be much better than what D&D has. They are terrible at writing a logical script, with a million plot holes.

GRRM will be a perfectionist with his craft, and he will still keep the readers on the edge of their seats.

GRRM already branched off from D&D after Season 4, and I know why. It Bran & the Three-Eyed Raven plot line.

GRRM: "D&D, you guys are writing the Three-Eyed-Raven to be a good guy right? Ok, time for me to leave. Good luck!"

[Roux]

32 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

D&D can do their own thing. I will still watch it. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I just have no choice for a visual adaption of ASOIAF.

But anything GRRM will write for TWOW and ADOS will be much better than what D&D has. They are terrible at writing a logical script, with a million plot holes.

GRRM will be a perfectionist with his craft, and he will still keep the readers on the edge of their seats.

GRRM already branched off from D&D after Season 4, and I know why. It Bran & the Three-Eyed Raven plot line.

GRRM: "D&D, you guys are writing the Three-Eyed-Raven to be a good guy right? Ok, time for me to leave. Good luck!"

I kinda agree. I really hope he finishes the writing, just because the books have so much MORE than the show. There's no way to make everyone happy. And 3ER isnt good or bad. He just is. Exists.