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[Spoilers] Episode 803 Discussion

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1 minute ago, Bran Snow said:

I just want to see Tormund get a castle. All the crap he gives Jon about "Southern" lords and he ends up being one too.

Yeah I reckon giving him the Last Hearth would make sense

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17 hours ago, longest night said:

There's just a various number of questions I have.

  1. Why did Bran need Jon to know about his father and mother right at that moment? Wouldn't that indicate his birth was important to the upcoming battle or the defeat of the Night King? Which is exactly what was suppose to have happened. Yet here we are, nothing from it. 
  2. Why has every vision that Bran has had to specifically to do with Jon? Yet again, nothing came of it.
  3. Why was Bran waiting for Jaime, yet Jaime had no major part in the War for the Dawn?
  4. What was Bran doing exactly when he warged those ravens? We never actually saw him do anything, but he stayed that way for awhile.
  5. Where is Yohn Royce and the knights of the Vale? Last we saw him he was with Sansa.
  6. Why did so many major characters survive?
  7. Why is Bran alive if his character arc is complete?

Jon's parentage went hilariously nowhere. I have no idea why it was so important for Bran to tell him before the battle - or at all - if it had absolutely nothing to do with defeating the White Walkers. He rode a dragon perfectly without knowing it and no one had a second thought about his skills. So why even bother when it turns out that his Targness is only important for politics, and Jon has no interest in politics or ruling whatsoever?

God, how could they have gotten it so backwards?

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7 minutes ago, LHakaLH said:

Jon's parentage went hilariously nowhere. I have no idea why it was so important for Bran to tell him before the battle - or at all - if it had absolutely nothing to do with defeating the White Walkers. He rode a dragon perfectly without knowing it and no one had a second thought about his skills. So why even bother when it turns out that his Targness is only important for politics, and Jon has no interest in politics or ruling whatsoever?

God, how could they have gotten it so backwards?

Even worse. He learned about it and 5 min later he was ok. Like his parentage didn t affect him at all… There wasn t a reaction...

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

Even worse. He learned about it and 5 min later he was ok. Like his parentage didn t affect him at all… There wasn t a reaction...

Ah, but the real story is political. The whole business with the White Walkers was a distraction from what is really important: Who Will Win The iron Throne? And according to D&D (and lots of other shitty writers), only those who have no interest in ruling make good rulers. Ergo, Jon is the Perfect King (or Arya, judging by how things are going).
/sarcasm (in case it wasn't obvious)

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4 minutes ago, divica said:

Even worse. He learned about it and 5 min later he was ok. Like his parentage didn t affect him at all… There wasn t a reaction...

There was, but not really a major one. 
He avoided Daenerys for the entirety of episode 2.

I agree that Bran insisting that Jon must know by the end of ep1 was ultimately nonsensical, and that Jon telling Daenerys by the end of ep2 was daft.
Everything that unfolded in ep3 would unfold exactly the same way if Jon (and Daenerys) didn't know about his parents.

I can only assume that it happened due to the show wanting to feed us some fake-tension™.

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6 hours ago, Blackfyres R Legit said:

I totally agree, especially with Bran. It's cheapened Mira's sacrifice, Jojen's sacrifice, Hodor's sacrifice, Summer's sacrifice and I'd even say the TCOTF and the old 3-eyed Raven too, to a degree. I feel like I've been punched in the mouth. 

In terms of Mythic Prophecies in fantasy-type lore, the way Star Wars handled the matter is still best. Anakin Skywalker did ultimately bring balance to the Force, just not in a way that anyone would have wanted or expected.

Exactly. And what  was all that training for, 7 seasons training in warging, greenseing, all that? To sit there as bait?? The whole 3ER purpose was to become a powerful enough magic being as to be able to deal with the NK. This is a world where magic EXISTS, and affects wordly events. Yet, the only "magic" thing we saw him doing was... scout through the ravens? which was of no use, because he didn't say a word to anybody,not to mention that it's doubtful he could have seen anything because the poor ravens had to endure the same blizzard and fog than the dragons. 
And the complete lack of any sense,   story wise, for Bran NOW!  He existed to save humankind from extinction, or so we were told. What on earth has the 3ER to do with the petty, mean, small, trivial and despicable political worldy "game"? Or now he is supposed to revert to being just Bran Stark again?

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19 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

The Jon parentage thing is on hold. It will be back next week. He needs to tell his sisters

To quote a forum user: "Dear sister-cousins, I demand you accept my aunt-wife."

But yeah, the realization that Jon technically has closer blood-ties to Daenerys than to his perceived sisters should really come as shock to...well...Sansa at least. Can't wait to see the reactions. I hope that Yohn "A Targaryen Can't Be Trusted" Royce is present.
*Grabs popcorns*

Edited by MinscS2

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4 hours ago, Ghosts Lunch said:

Yeah that was my initial impression, then it seemed they were coming through the Walls, so wasn't sure if this was like them tunnelling into Tree Cave

What we see the first dead breaking  through wasn't the walls, but one of the stone sarcophagi that are in the niches, next / behind the  the statues. So the dead were some of the Starks, but interestingly, Sansa and Tyrion hid behind the sarcophage in the back of  Ned's statue, which is intact, and in the sequence we can see that the ones with statues that had their swords are intact too.  So it seems that they kept the lore of the swords preventing the "vengeful" spirits to rise. Or may be it was only accidental? since they've thrown all the important lore down the drain.

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Just now, King Roberts beard said:

 On second watching it does look as though the Dothraki charge before they are supposed to.

They are.
You can see how Jorah looks surprised and bewildered when they start to charge around him.
They got all... fired up from Mel's magic. 

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So why do we need anyone else but Arya at this point ? Just send Arya all alone to KL and I can guarantee you she will kill them all. I don't think I've ever seen a TV character with such a big plot armor. Holy hell was it so obvious in this episode.

Why did Mel resurrect Jon ? What's  the point ? All those 1v1s with the Night King, building up from Hardhome,  Beyond The Wall...all for nothing ? He looked invincible and could sense Jon from a mile away but Arya gets him like that ? I rolled my eyes so hard there. Probably lost all interest right then and there. I would have at least been semi ok if she killed a WW and took his face but even then the NK should have sensed that too. And what was his reason for all of this ? All this build up ? Killed by a little girl just like that. WTF was the point of Bran then ? All that warging, those looks with the NK....just BS ? The more I think about this episode the more pissed I am. I mean if this was a shitty show like The Walking Dead I wouldn't be upset because you expect stuff like that from a shitty show but GOT just pulled off something I never imagined they would. I mean we have had some disappointing episodes but this was beyond disappointing. Killed my love and appreciation for the show. And I don't have high standards.

Theon was the saving grace of an otherwise incredibly disappointing episode, so bad it killed my love for the show.

But if you loved it, fair play to you. I wish I could have enjoyed it as well.

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1 hour ago, King Roberts beard said:

 On second watching it does look as though the Dothraki charge before they are supposed to.

Yeah. It wasn't shown very well. But Jorah is their commander I assume and he gave no command. They just went. Which is believable as they are undisciplined and arrogant in general and IIRC had never seen the dead army. 

Whether the premature attack made a difference, I doubt it. 

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8 hours ago, Arya's Sideboob said:

Ummm...yes?!

You should probably see a psychiatrist. 

Edited by Tygett Lannister

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11 hours ago, nara said:

1.  Maybe he needed to know in case Sam and Bran died in the battle

3. Bran was just waiting to forgive Jaime to end his redemption arc. Probably Jaime plays a bigger role in final battle and Westeros moving forward and needed to have closure with Bran to do so.

I think that the reason so many of the named characters have survived is to do just that.

iron islands— Yara

North — Sansa 

westerlands — Tyrion 

Vale — Robin

Riverlands — Edmure

stormlands — Gendry (and Arya?)

Reach — Brienne and Jaime (they’ve shown a desire to give fans what they want so Jaime + Brienne is definitely happening, though I don’t like that)

Dorne — Greyworm and Missandei

Last Hearth — Tormund

This is comedy gold post. 

Giving Dorne to a foreign professional soldier who knows nothing but military strategy and fighting and a translator. 

What makes you think Jamie and Brienne can rule the Reach? 

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17 hours ago, Nihiloth90 said:

Except it wasn't even a real fight. She sneaks up behind him and stabs him with a weapon that causes his body to shatter.

Yeah, like someone sneaking up behind the Sword of the Morning and stabbing him in the back.

This part was foreshadowed as well and so was the blade switching.

The only reason that I hadn't been thinking of Arya killing the Night King was that I had bought into the Arya kills Cersei plot that has been dangled so long. A few seasons ago, I was thinking Jon was being built up so hard it had to be someone else and Arya was the most likely candidate.

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My thoughts on the episode, now that I've had a few days to digest.

In the moment, it was a terrifying and suspenseful episode.  Yes, some of the military tactics were dumb, but either for effect, like the Dothraki charge with the flaming swords going out, or due to budget, like the trebuchets getting destroyed, or both. There are many great sequences and moments in the episode, from the beautiful shot of the dragons above the clouds, or the entire Arya in the walls of Winterfell sequence, or Theon's death. 

A day after the episode, though, it all feels a bit weightless. This is partially because the white walkers are taken out way earlier than I expected them to be, before they've reached the south of Westeros. This is partially because very few major characters die, especially given the number of shots of them all on the verge of being overwhelmed by wights. And this is also because the end of the episode doesn't do a great job of making you feel like you're reaching a climax.

On the one hand, it seems to be; the shift in the score to piano, the somber mood after that great sequence where Jon and the Night King face off and all the dead rise, Jon rushing past his friends because he knows what the true battle is, the white walkers finally coming into Winterfell, the dead rising in the crypts. All of these things make you feel like shit's about to get real... but aside from Theon's death, it isn't. Jon plays hide and seek with a dragon; Tyrion and Sansa get a great scene in the crypts, but otherwise nothing happens; the white walkers play honour guard; our heroes stand against the same wall for twenty minutes looking like they're about to be overwhelmed by wights; Bran does nothing but take some ravens for a joyride.  

I get what they were going for: they want you to feel all is lost right before the sudden twist of Arya jumping out of nowhere. But the shift doesn't really work because it doesn't feel like any of the major characters are doing anything important. Just to be clear, I think that Arya being the one to kill the Night King is a great twist and a very nice way to justify her character arc. I'm not sure why fans of this series, who generally praise it and GRRM for its subversion of tropes and his clear theme that prophecies and myths are not to be trusted, are upset that Jon didn't turn out to be the stereotypical fantasy hero who not only has the secret royal bloodline but ALSO solves everything with his flaming sword.

The problem, I think, is mainly with the way it's shot, edited, and what the main characters are doing the moment the Night King loses. If the Night King was going to lose in this episode, it would always feel anti-climactic; but it's worth seriously considering that this is where GRRM is going to end the long night as well, at Winterfell. But more character deaths, more climactic actions, whether Jon/Brienne/Jaime fighting white walkers or Dany fighting her undead dragon or shots of Arya closing in or Bran doing anything, would have done wonders to make this feel like a climax.

I'm still kind of in shock that the Long Night ended so quickly; I'll reserve judgment on whether or not it's the right decision until I see the rest of the season. On the one hand, it doesn't seem to fit thematically - syke, winter wasn't coming and playing petty politics until the end is the best idea, unless you live in the north - on the other hand, it really does, since human conflicts have been at the heart of the show and the novels for the majority of their runs. 

Overall, I give it a B, which is maybe not what you want for your somewhat climactic episode, but isn't as terrible as some are saying either. Here's hoping the rest of the season is more of a home run. 

      

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3 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

I get what they were going for: they want you to feel all is lost right before the sudden twist of Arya jumping out of nowhere. But the shift doesn't really work because it doesn't feel like any of the major characters are doing anything important. Just to be clear, I think that Arya being the one to kill the Night King is a great twist and a very nice way to justify her character arc. I'm not sure why fans of this series, who generally praise it and GRRM for its subversion of tropes and his clear theme that prophecies and myths are not to be trusted, are upset that Jon didn't turn out to be the stereotypical fantasy hero who not only has the secret royal bloodline but ALSO solves everything with his flaming sword.

First, there is a diference between having an universe where everything can happen and spending years saying how important some characters to fight the NK and having suspense building for a conflict only to have jon, bran, danny and the dragons doing noting noteworthy.

And in grrm world all profecies come true, it just might not be in the way people expect them. Speaking about the profecy of tptwp for seasons only to when the time comes simply ignore it and go for a WOW moment is horrendus writting. I mean, we had mel talking about the profecy to danny last season and this year we are suposed to Forget about it? It is like people aren t even trying to write a coherent story...

Arya killing the NK alone is something completly undeserving taking into account the story arcs of jon, bran and danny. Arya's arc is related to assassinate people on her list and balancing being arya stark with no one. She should have an importante role in the battle of KL. It is what makes sense in her story.

What happened in the episode just made bran becoming the 3er completly useless What does he even do? What was the point of creating all the hype between jon and the NK if they never fight? (it is the same as if the mountain and the hound are ready to cross sword and sudenly tormund kills the mountain) why was it importante for danny to come north? She just gave a dragon and her dothriaki to the NK while she was lost in a fog half the ep… What did jon do in the battle that his entire story in got prepares him for?

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