[Poll] How would you rate episode 803?

[Dolorous Gabe]

34 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

I keep seeing mention of these mysterious "flanks" of the undead horde. There weren't flanks. It was a massive overwhelming disorganized ocean of thousands upon thousands of fast moving undead. 

It was hopeless 

And cavalry being nearly worthless given the shock and awe value was completely useless against this foe. 

Seriously right before the battle Daenerys should have said "Now go flank them!" 

"Flank" wink wink being a code word for get the hell out of here so in case we win I still have an army albeit a small one. 

The unsullied otoh have always been expendable ; )

"it was hopeless" is not an excuse for the moronic suicide charge.

If there were no flanks, please do let me know where Jon and Dany were watching from! For there to be no flanks the undead would have to be charging from every direction, not just the north. Coming into the wight army from the east and the west would be coming into the battle from the flanks. Then at least you've got the Unsullied and the Dothraki fighting them together and they can retreat into WF if/when necessary.

[#teamNightking]

1 hour ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

If there were no flanks, please do let me know where Jon and Dany were watching from! 

Well I mean everything has a "flank" if you go far enough. But Daenerys and Jon we're waaaaay out of any useful tactical range so that's not really a "flank" more of a "safe vantage point".

The question that needs to be answered first and foremost is, did they know the size of the Army of the Dead? They should have but it doesn't mean they did. Bran hasn't exactly been "useful". 

Let's be honest, the Bran Bait Plan is kind of flawed at least equally as much as the Dothroki charge?

And if Bran knew ahead of time it was to be Arya, why not have Arya already hidden in the Weirwood Grove before the battle? 

I mean if you pick it apart enough, none of it makes much sense. 

But it did have cool visuals. 

 

[#teamNightking]

1 hour ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Then at least you've got the Unsullied and the Dothraki fighting them together and they can retreat into WF if/when necessary.

Not the way the trench was set up. Not sure they could retreat. 

[Count Balerion]

As expected, mostly Action/Batte stuff, with all the accoutrements: massing forces, gore (although I didn't notice so much of that); minimal dialogue, apart from yelling and screaming and grunting (I'm not sure there was more than a quarter-hour of dialogue in toto). There was a lot of chiaroscuro -- but more scuro than chiaro. Most of this stuff was good in its kind, if you like that sort of thing. Some high points of the battle:

Flaming swords!

Dragons!

Dragons fighting!

High Valyrian!

Melisandre

Lyanna Mormont takes out a wight-giant! (Even if he did look a little like the Abominable Snowman in RUDOLPH THE RED-NOSED REINDEER.)

Some other things I liked:

Dany mourning Jorah. (Also the fact that she fought in the battle.)

Ghost! (Even if he didn't do much.)

Theon's redemption, and Bran telling him that he's a good man. Pretty powerful stuff. (I did wonder, earlier: what were Bran's ravens doing?)

The retort to Sansa's observation that the dragon queen was dividing loyalties: "Without the dragon queen, we wouldn't have that problem because we'd all be dead."

Some things I didn't like:

The dark was cool; but there was a bit too much of it. Hard to see what's going on.

Too many survivors. This is one crowded cast of characters.

A little too easy. Instead of the game of thrones being a distraction from the war against the WW, it's the other way around?

What I really didn't like:

How the NK went out. This is not a job for Arya IMO. There isn't space for me to go on about Arya's arc, if she has one (last season she went from psychopathy to paranoia). But it seems to me she's more suited to human antagonists. If you want her to kill someone important, let it be Cersei (maybe the valonqar gets her, although there's been no mention of him yet in the show) or Qyburn or Euron. The most appropriate way for the NK to go is:

1. A MAIN main character. Arya's pretty main, but not THAT main. Jon slaying the NK in single combat would be horribly predictable, but would at least make some sense, inasmuch as he's been built up as the Big Hero. Maybe some way could be found to make Jon doing it less obvious; dunno. There's also Dany. I'd have to concede that having the dragons just burn the NK to death would be too easy; but again, it would have been better than what we got. Or Dany could jump from her dragon onto the NK and stab him, the way Arya did but w/ perhaps more plausibility.

2. Frankly supernatural means. This has the advantage that you can be a little less obvious. Melisandre could beat him; although she's much less a main character than Arya, she does have supernatural abilities, and is all about defeating the Great Other. Yes, she burnt Shireen; but then Arya murdered the Freys.

I incline to think Bran defeating the NK would have been best. The NK is about to win and wipe out the bedraggled remnant! Then suddenly, Bran ... well, I've always been fond of the notion that Bran IS the NK (it would have been cool as the blazes), so perhaps he goes back and undoes something to prevent this NK business). Or he wargs the NK and makes him commit suicide! (Although then, why didn't he do it earlier? Or he wargs Viserion, and Viserion kills the NK! Like wow!

Also, this thing where they all die when the NK dies: too easy.

Final score: Because the conclusion of a major plotline is so unsatisfactory, I have to give it a 5.

[Gianna Dorenberg]

If I could I would've rated it less than 1.

I can sum this episode up for you. 99% of darkness. No major characters die. Arya vs everyone else and as expected...Arya wins again. Arya would probably win against Thanos as well. With that kind of plot armor. Holy hell. 

This is like watching garbage like SS or JL. Everything is by the books, nothing makes sense, and dumb exposition all over the place.

Yes this might be the longest battle in TV and movie history, but it's up there with one of the worst imo. 

At this point, I don't really care about what happens in the remaining episodes. I've become numb to the show. Wish I could've loved it as well. But alas.

[Raksha 2014]

I don't know how to do the actual vote; but I'd give it a 6.  The episode didn't do much for me; there were too many boring patches (I'm not a zombie/wight fan and the darkness and swirling snow and wind also made it hard to figure out what the heck Jon and Dany were trying to do or actually were doing.

[VladLXXXI]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:30 AM, anjulibai said:

Who the fuck gave it a 1?

...I dont have that much time to waste. 30 good minutes of the episode were boring as fuck. There was really no need to make 90min. What a waste.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I don't know how to do the actual vote; but I'd give it a 6.  The episode didn't do much for me; there were too many boring patches (I'm not a zombie/wight fan and the darkness and swirling snow and wind also made it hard to figure out what the heck Jon and Dany were trying to do or actually were doing.

At the top of the screen should be some numbers you can click on. 

[Raksha 2014]

Nowhere to click; at the top of the page, the results are shown.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

25 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Nowhere to click; at the top of the page, the results are shown.  

That means you already voted. It doesn't show you the results until after you vote. Maybe you clicked a number by accident?

 

[Raksha 2014]

Maybe...Looks like most voters had a higher opinion of the episode than I did anyway, though it certainly wasn't the worst.

[House Cambodia]

13 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Maybe...Looks like most voters had a higher opinion of the episode than I did anyway, though it certainly wasn't the worst.

Actually, I think it's been a common feeling - and I include myself in this - that while watching the episode it felt gripping, exciting and worthy of a high rating; and then on further reflection, it turns out to be full of nonsensical moments and the feeling turns to disappointment. For me, I gave it an 8, but now I'd rate it nearer 5.5

[BlackLightning]

53 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Actually, I think it's been a common feeling - and I include myself in this - that while watching the episode it felt gripping, exciting and worthy of a high rating; and then on further reflection, it turns out to be full of nonsensical moments and the feeling turns to disappointment. For me, I gave it an 8, but now I'd rate it nearer 5.5

That's why I don't rate an episode until I've waited to see the episode at least twice. Once by itself and once after binging the previous episodes.

[no_one_...]

1 hour ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Maybe...Looks like most voters had a higher opinion of the episode than I did anyway, though it certainly wasn't the worst.

Can't speak for others, but I tend to rate them as stand alones, then discuss overall impact elsewhere.  Since season 5 it became obvious to me the writers went away from what Martin richly developed to a more all sizzle no steak effot.  For that reason I gave it a 7, but if I rated the show overall as a 7.5 coming in then incorporated this episode it would drop to 6.  Basically, it's a high budget popcorn matinee at this point.  

My concern is it will become a complete parody of itself and undermind the underlying character development and social commentary.  Even last episode Arya was laying in bed emotionally detached after what should have been a very intimate experience.   This was in character to me given all she's been through and the evil she's done, aside killing all the male Freys was in the kill them all territory.  Now if all she is shown to be is badass hero all that goes out the window.

 

[FireWinds]

On 4/30/2019 at 12:46 PM, SansaJonRule said:

They had how many days to prepare? And those weren't just regular trenches, they had shards of dragon glass affixed to them, which didn't arrive until a few days ago.

It was well manned after the retreat (before that just archers). But a lot of them got killed presumably. You started to see more gaps between soldiers as more wights made it over the wall.

I thought the wall was surprisingly short.

 

 

Exactly how long did they have? The wall to Winterfell is what, 600 miles? So a non-stop walk would be around a week? So much time to prepare a better defence. 

They literally only put trenches right outside the walls of waterfall. They knew the area more than anyone and knew exactly where the army of dead were coming from, yet didn't make any plans, traps or anything. Literally just waited for them to be right outside their doors to attack. 

Usually when you are up against too many numbers, the best thing to do is to try to block them off, so a smaller amount can come at you instead of all at once. Like a trickle of people rather the whole wave. 

Hell they could have at least put up some string across from one side to the other or ropes course to slow them down a bit lol. Something, Anything! Daenerys had over 100,000 men alone and a week for preparations. 

 

No the walls weren't manned, they retreated and sort of just stood around and watched the undead through the fire at the trench. When the dead start sacrificing themselves to make a bridge only then did they yell to man the wall. 

What was the next step of the plan there? Just wait for the fire to go out? We're supposed to have some of the most intelligent people around to advise them (as they keep reminding us). But there was hardly any siege tactics used at all.

I mean Ramsey did a better job at the Battle of the Bastards to positioning his enemies then killing them and his own men to create a wall with there dead bodies, to trap the survivor's in a corner then cut them off with multiple rows of armoured men with shields and spears to close in on them. That was a Brilliant idea!

I just expected something of that standard being used in this battle, you know because it being of such importance. 

Edited May 1, 2019 by FireWinds

[kevinbgwrites]

While there were some impressive visual moments (swords lighting up, the undead crashing into the living, the storm of ice in the background while dragons breathed fire into the undead), and the music was stellar to the point of still being stuck in my head, the story that accompanied it was a dumpster fire. Despite all its budget and potential, the sum total of it is less than the battle of the blackwater or the wall. Even hardhome was better in terms of conveying the threat of the dead.

 

In terms of while I was watching it, with a drink in hand it was a 6/10 in raw enjoyment.

However when you truly reflect on it and consider that it is the payoff for the scene that started the series and has been built up through every season, as well as uncharacteristically filled with plot armor, unresolved plot threads like Bran and the NK, TPTWP, etc. it is hard to view it as anything other than an abortion of the series. It is like the mishandling of the LF plot line only on a much grander scale due to the scope. It is the rare kind of episode that makes me feel worse about the series as a whole including all the episodes leading up to it, and thus cant honestly be anything but a 1.

[TeethGrinder]

3/10

And Ramin Djawadi is solely responsible for it not being a 1.

The writing has become a parody of what the show was. The only purpose is to shock and thrill - No effort whatsoever put into telling a story. You genuinely get more subtlety and nuance in a Marvel movie.

A series that was built on showing the brutal, unforgiving consequences to the actions of characters now allows them to do whatever they want. Just about character should have died twice over, but impossible situations matter not to the plot armour. It’s an absolute shambles.

Edited May 1, 2019 by TeethGrinder

[Nihiloth90]

18 hours ago, VladLXXXI said:

...I dont have that much time to waste. 30 good minutes of the episode were boring as fuck. There was really no need to make 90min. What a waste.

Arya's segment took up 20+ minutes; the library crap, being trapped in a hallway, and then talking with Melisandre--such a stupid side plot and an even more ridiculous climax.

The character of Arya would have been great as an assassin who takes out important (living) leaders, not the undead armies. This episode will go down as the dumbest decision ever made by the showrunners.

Quote

 No major characters die.

I know you're all angry, and it's kind of hard to tell, but Jorah Mormont dies at the end of the episode, if you finished it. He's been one of the top-billed actors since season 1 (in nearly as many episodes as Jaime Lannister).

Edited May 1, 2019 by Nihiloth90

[Count Balerion]

Worth the wait:

 

[Rhienne]

I gave this episode a 2.  There were a couple of scenes I enjoyed, but overall it felt disjointed, poorly directed, cliched, and unbalanced.  

Good Things

Lyanna Mormont's death - that was a seriously awesome way to go and matched her character and little arc perfectly.

Ghost - at least he made an appearance (but it's fairly sad that just seeing Ghost on screen for 1-2 seconds counts as a positive now)

Dothraki charge - this was one of the few moments in the battle that had any kind of emotional impact for me.  It was dramatic, beautiful and powerful to watch, and was a great way to set the tone of hopelessness at the beginning of the battle.  Seeing Daenerys' horror to it added to the impact.

Melisandre's scenes - apart from her bizarre appearance out of nowhere, I thought her acting was superb and her role was fitting.  The contrast between her aloofly commanding the Dothraki to hold their swords up so she could light them with fire to her panicking over being unable to light the trenches was a really good choice for showing the tide of the battle going against the living.

The Night King meeting Bran - I have issues with almost everything else to do with the Night King and Bran in this episode, but I thought Isaac's poise and opaqueness worked really well as the Night King approached him, especially with the accompanying music.

Theon's (second) redemption - I personally felt that Theon had already redeemed himself by helping Sansa escape, but his death certainly drove that nail home.  Bran validating his right to claim Winterfell as home was a really lovely end to his character, especially after he had left Yara to come and fight for Sansa/Winterfell.

 

Things That Were Meh

Scenes in the Crypts - these just did nothing for me.  I normally really enjoy Sansa's and Tyrion's scenes, but I just felt generally underwhelmed by the dialogue, and the sudden closeness between Sansa and Tyrion seemed unnatural.  I think there was a lot of waste potential here, with the possibility of bringing back characters that would have been recognisable to Sansa, not to mention the dire wolves buried there.

Brienne and Jamie - this episode really drove home the importance of dialogue.  I just didn't care about any of their scenes in the battle at all.  

Arya killing the Night King - I'm ok with Arya being the one to kill the Night King, but I don't think it was well executed.  

 

Bad Things

Direction - This battle scene felt really poorly stitched together.  I didn't really understand how the battle was going, have time to recognise who was doing what on screen, or know where different characters were in relation to each other.  It was also very repetitive.  There was none of the intensity of fear and suffering conveyed here (compared to say, the Battle of the Bastards).

Dragon riding - The dragon riding seeming ludicrous and didn't really achieve anything.  I fail to see what Dany and Jon achieved (beyond being liabilities) by clinging to the back of dragons in combat WITHOUT HARNESSES.  How Jon survived the clash between Viserion and Rhaegal is beyond me.

Dany being able to usefully use a sword while everyone in the crypts was seen as a a liability - this one is minor but bugged me.  Given the direness of the situation, if Dany is capable of grabbing a sword and killing a few undead by waving it around cluelessly, surely it would have been worth giving everyone in the crypt a weapon too?

Most of Arya's scenes - I love Arya but felt that this episode was awful to her.  She goes from fearlessly fighting to running in terror to fearlessly fighting again with no apparent cause.  And that library scene was awful.  It just reminded me of every 'dodge the guards' line of sight' level of pretty much every video game ever made.

Lack of major character deaths - Given the hopelessness of the situation, way more main characters needed to die to really convey any sense of anxiety to the viewer.  By the end we had the awful cliche of only the named characters being left standing, which feels really below what I expect from Game of Thrones.

Dead end character arcs - I feel the conclusion of this episode has 'dead ended' a lot of characters.  I don't feel Bran, Brienne, Davos, Tormund, Sansa, Sam, Greyworm and Missandei have anywhere to go in terms of actions or character growth from here.

Dialogue - not enough of it, and what little there was very poor quality.  The contrast was particularly evident after last week's episode.