[Poll] How would you rate episode 803?

[legba11]

3 hours ago, olibar said:

Um, yeah, so Sauron WAS killed off half way through The Return of the King and the remaining half of the book was about the Hobbits going back to the Shire and dealing with the repercussions of the war there, including facing an old enemy who used the fact that everyone's attention was focused on Sauron to grow his own power.

The Night King was killed with less than 5% of the entire run of the show remaining.  That's pretty much the end.  Devoting 5% of the story to what happens after seems appropriate to me.

Nice math.  

[Gianna Dorenberg]

2 hours ago, olibar said:

Um, yeah, so Sauron WAS killed off half way through The Return of the King and the remaining half of the book was about the Hobbits going back to the Shire and dealing with the repercussions of the war there, including facing an old enemy who used the fact that everyone's attention was focused on Sauron to grow his own power.

The Night King was killed with less than 5% of the entire run of the show remaining.  That's pretty much the end.  Devoting 5% of the story to what happens after seems appropriate to me.

There's no comparison there as there's no NK in the books and it's unfinished anyway. I was talking about the movie version vs the show version.

My point was, Sauron is The Night King and Saruman is Cersei in this context. It's like killing off Sauron first in ROTK and then focusing on Saruman.  In this comparison, Cersei is Sauron and The Night King is Saruman. Or killing off Thanos in Avengers 1 and turns out Loki is the final villain in Endgame. None of those are really bad villains (though Cersei sits at the bottom of that list with the NK being a close 2nd, can't believe I would have ever thought I'd say this about a GOT villain).

Less than 5% for GOT yeah, but it was less than 33% for LOTR in the context of Night King being Sauron (if Sauron had been killed off at the start). But that didn't happen did it. He was killed at the end of the entire saga with less than 15 min remaining out of 10+ hours which equates to less than 2.5% (with no villain left). Not that the numbers mean anything. I mean I can make an unfair comparison by saying ''Only 15 mins were left to the LOTR saga after the biggest threat had been eliminated and in GOT there is still 3+ hours left after the same''.My point was mostly about killing off years and years of buildup of the greatest thread to mankind ever (turns out what could have been one of the greatest villains ever is just one of the most cliche, awful, silly villains ever), and focusing the rest of 3+ hours on a lesser one that doesn't even compare. And in such a way that it's hard for anyone to believe Cersei can even be a threat considering how powerful Arya really is. Logic dictates, if Arya can kill the greatest threat to mankind ever, with such ease, you expect she could do the same to a alcohol queen and his pirate friend with ease as well. If they don't follow this obvious route, then it's another dumb plothole.

But whatever, people will always keep defending the undefendable. I understand that people can passionately love things. But I wish fanboyism wasn't a thing. 

[legba11]

More than the Ep's left (I am ok with the battle for the Throne ending the series) is the unspecial way he goes down that bothers me.  It felt like the end of a 30 minute cartoon.  Having a character with no connection to the storyline (and I LOVE Arya in both versions, one of the few I like in both) go superninja is not subversive or shocking in a good way.  It would be shocking if Dany had secretly fed the dragons shards of obsidian and then sprayed bloody lethal diarrhea all over the battlefield to win the battle.  I don't think anyone thinks that is a good ending.

 

If they wanted to go fan-servicey at least make it seem special.  Like have all the Starks contribute so at least it goes back to things the show has been about.  I wouldn't be thrilled, but at least it would make some kind of connection to the story they've been telling.  If they wanted this ending, why not have everyone else run south and Bran sits in the grove with Arya hiding in behind the tree.  You could even leave Same there and have him play the sad trombone riff while the NK is stabbed.

[olibar]

3 hours ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

There's no comparison there as there's no NK in the books and it's unfinished anyway. I was talking about the movie version vs the show version.

My point was, Sauron is The Night King and Saruman is Cersei in this context. It's like killing off Sauron first in ROTK and then focusing on Saruman.  In this comparison, Cersei is Sauron and The Night King is Saruman. Or killing off Thanos in Avengers 1 and turns out Loki is the final villain in Endgame. None of those are really bad villains (though Cersei sits at the bottom of that list with the NK being a close 2nd, can't believe I would have ever thought I'd say this about a GOT villain).

Less than 5% for GOT yeah, but it was less than 33% for LOTR in the context of Night King being Sauron (if Sauron had been killed off at the start). But that didn't happen did it. He was killed at the end of the entire saga with less than 15 min remaining out of 10+ hours which equates to less than 2.5% (with no villain left). Not that the numbers mean anything. I mean I can make an unfair comparison by saying ''Only 15 mins were left to the LOTR saga after the biggest threat had been eliminated and in GOT there is still 3+ hours left after the same''.My point was mostly about killing off years and years of buildup of the greatest thread to mankind ever (turns out what could have been one of the greatest villains ever is just one of the most cliche, awful, silly villains ever), and focusing the rest of 3+ hours on a lesser one that doesn't even compare. And in such a way that it's hard for anyone to believe Cersei can even be a threat considering how powerful Arya really is. Logic dictates, if Arya can kill the greatest threat to mankind ever, with such ease, you expect she could do the same to a alcohol queen and his pirate friend with ease as well. If they don't follow this obvious route, then it's another dumb plothole.

But whatever, people will always keep defending the undefendable. I understand that people can passionately love things. But I wish fanboyism wasn't a thing. 

After years and years of build-up, it took the entire combined forces of Jon and Dany to defeat the Night King, and even then, they would have lost if not for the years of training and hardship that Arya endured that allowed her to strike the fatal blow when the Night King believed he'd finally won and made the mistake of exposing himself.  What more did you want from that moment?  

As it is, we're left with Dany having to confront the most difficult choice she could possible face.  Give up the throne or use her Dragons directly against Kings Landing to win it.  And I think Jon may have something to say about the later...

[legba11]

What would have been different if they had left Bran (and Arya) undefended in the grove?  All the undead army did was clear people out from the keep area and a small force fought off Theon's 20 good men.  Once that was accomplished, the NK chose to walk into the grove alone, leaving his WW's behind.  That could have been accomplished by just opening the gate back there and letting him walk in and not involved the end of the Dothraki people and all the other casualties. 

[dbunting]

On 5/5/2019 at 6:39 PM, legba11 said:

What would have been different if they had left Bran (and Arya) undefended in the grove?  All the undead army did was clear people out from the keep area and a small force fought off Theon's 20 good men.  Once that was accomplished, the NK chose to walk into the grove alone, leaving his WW's behind.  That could have been accomplished by just opening the gate back there and letting him walk in and not involved the end of the Dothraki people and all the other casualties. 

You assume a lot here that is all based on hind sight.

[Cas Stark]

2 hours ago, dbunting said:

You assume a lot here that is all based on hind sight.

Wasn't that their plan in the first place?  To lure the NK to the godswood and then kill him?  So, they could have sent 2/3 of their forces South, lured him in with significantly less  loss of life. They even could have put the same force out there and then melted away to let the WW army move forward and get to the godswood.  Their 'strategy' called for putting on enough show to lure the NK into the godswood.  What they did was fight the battle full on, with numerous suicidal strategies when all they needed was no one. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Cas Stark

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Wasn't that their plan in the first place?  To lure the NK to the godswood and then kill him?  So, they could have sent 2/3 of their forces South, lured him in with significantly less  loss of life. They even could have put the same force out there and then melted away to let the WW army move forward and get to the godswood.  Their 'strategy' called for putting on enough show to lure the NK into the godswood.  What they did was fight the battle full on, with numerous suicidal strategies when all they needed was no one. 

Ok, so now it will be my turn to assume some things. Ep 4 in the map room they say they lost like over half the Dothraki and the Unsullied. Would that mean they did just what you said and kept some in reserve? I assumed watching the episode that basically all the Dothraki were gone, save a few who retreated. But, Ep 4 seems to suggest otherwise. I can't check the scene right now and may be remembering it wrong though.

[House Cambodia]

1 hour ago, dbunting said:

Ok, so now it will be my turn to assume some things. Ep 4 in the map room they say they lost like over half the Dothraki and the Unsullied. Would that mean they did just what you said and kept some in reserve? I assumed watching the episode that basically all the Dothraki were gone, save a few who retreated. But, Ep 4 seems to suggest otherwise. I can't check the scene right now and may be remembering it wrong though.

You're right - in the war room they SAID that, but no Dothraki were outside the gates of KL. Possibly they all perished at sea, but more likely, they're riding down the King's Road with Jon and the other cavalry. There were about 100 Unsullied in the shot - again, maybe all that survived Euron's attack. But however it's cooked, the allies surely don't have enough forces left to go toe-to-toe against the Golden Company and Cercei's troops.

[dbunting]

14 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

You're right - in the war room they SAID that, but no Dothraki were outside the gates of KL. Possibly they all perished at sea, but more likely, they're riding down the King's Road with Jon and the other cavalry. There were about 100 Unsullied in the shot - again, maybe all that survived Euron's attack. But however it's cooked, the allies surely don't have enough forces left to go toe-to-toe against the Golden Company and Cercei's troops.

They specifically said that the bulk of the Unsullied and all the remaining Dothraki would march south with Jon on the Kings road. They didn't have enough ships to carry them all.

[hokie3457]

On ‎4‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 2:43 PM, Zorral said:

Again, logic and intelligence sacrificed for something looking cool, but had no purpose ultimately for story, action or characters.  But then, I hated the LOTR's scene in which the signal fires are lit to summon Rohan -- oooooooo everybody cooed, this is so coooooooooool.  Except all the fires are set above the cloud line so who the hell saw them? 

 

 

Someone help me out, but the purpose of lighting the beacons was a sort of relay system.  By the time the last beacon just beyond Rohan was lit, Aragorn was able to see it and alert all????  Again, someone help me out.  It has been a long, long time....

[DireWolfSpirit]

Arya Stark killing the Night King was perfect for me. She was born and groomed for that moment and it was the perfect and fitting way for it to happen. Defending Bran and saving Winterfell, the North and so forth, I loved this, a magnificent 10/10 for me, no question.

[Count Balerion]

Ouch:

 

[Table8]

Remember when this episode was as bad as it got?  Summer child thoughts.  Thanks D&D, you outdid yourselves!

[Table8]

On 5/5/2019 at 2:24 AM, Cron said:

Seems to me that if there were ways that you believe you could have improved it, then it was not perfect to you.

And yet you gave it a 10, because...it gave something to everyone?  Do I have that right?

Because in my opinion, lots of episodes have given something to everyone, but I'm guessing you did not give them all 10's.

By the way, I'd be interested to hear which characters you believe should have gotten more time in Blackwater, but if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine, of course.

Also, do you know whether Blackwater has a "rant and rave without repercussions" thread here at Westeros, or something similar to that, and if so, how many comments have been posted in it?  

I don't give 10's willy nilly.  In fact, although I have not kept track of all my grades that I have given to episodes, I don't think I've given more than five 10's.  I do give lots of 8's and 9's, though.  If you've been reading my posts, you know I'm generally very positive and optimistic, and tend to focus on what's good more than on what's bad, especially for GoT where there has been so much that they HAVE gotten right (as I believe I mentioned above)

To answer your question, though:  I give both Blackwater and 803 the same grade, "10," but for different reasons.  Overall, Blackwater was more consistently good, but, as I think I've mentioned, 803 had by far the most awesome 10 minutes of the whole series.  Beyond that, I really cannot easily say which I consider better overall.  Perhaps once I have had more time to digest and consider 803, I will be able to make that decision (about whether I think 803 is better than Blackwater), but right now I cannot easily do that, and I'm not going to sit here pondering it for an hour.

By the way, there was other good stuff in 803, too, besides the last 10 minutes, and although a lot of the criticism of 803 is fair, I'm not sure all of it is fair, for a variety of reasons.  (Here's a simple example:  Lots of people have been complaining about how dark it was.  Uh, okay, turn up the brightness on the t.v. or viewing device, and watch it again. I did that, and it made a big difference. And there are other examples, too.) 

So, is it possible that 803 was maybe a "9" to you, then?  Or no?

Compared to anything on TV right now? This episode was a 3 simply because of the darkness and the Arya out of nowhere scene.  Compared to GoT season 1? Not even a 1.  Compared to S8E5?  100

[PetyrPunkinhead]

On 4/28/2019 at 9:26 PM, Anthony Pirtle said:

8/10 

I'm somewhat disappointed that we killed off the Night King halfway through the season, but the battle was pretty epic. I was surprised by how, out of the dozens of potential deaths of named characters, only 6 or 7 died. R.I.P., Lyanna.

Ditto. I just watched it again tonight before S8E5, and I liked it more on the second viewing when I didn't have expectations. I also was able to adjust the setting on my TV to see a bit more clearly this time. I give it an 8/10, since it was indeed suspenseful and epic in execution yet it was not as emotionally impactful as some other great battles in the show (Blackwater Bay, Hardhome, & Battle of the Bastards)

[Talking Hodor]

On 4/30/2019 at 1:57 AM, longest night said:

Where else is there to go with the story? Three episode of Cersei? The vision of Daenerys of the throne room is still a giant elephant in the room and now we know it has nothing to do with the Others invading King's Landing. There's Bran's visions of Drogon flying over a smoking King's Landing as well.

Yeah, I punted that one.

[Table8]

After a week, I may have been harsh when I implied S8E3 episode was better than S8E5.  s8E3 is the worst thing ever on HB

 

Edit: my “worst thing ever” comment may be tested by S8E6

Edited May 18, 2019 by Table8

[FelixFelicis]

Looking at the tactics, it was really, really, REALLY horrid...

[Br16]

I was kind of hoping that Arya would be taken out by the Night King during her jump, and that would spur Jon into super Azor Ahai rage which allows him to cut towards the Night King for one almighty boss fight.