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Lord Varys

Who is going to get poisoned by the mushrooms?

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23 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We are talking about Tyrion's mushrooms from ADwD, of course. Tyrion kept some of them after killing both Yezzan and Nurse, so there are still some mushrooms left to use later. And the fact that George deliberately told us that Tyrion kept them implies he already knows how Tyrion is going to use them later. He knows Tyrion is going to (have to) use that poison later. Back when I read I thought it might be used much later in the story on Illyrio and/or Varys as payback, but that would be pretty far down the road. Prior to that Tyrion is likely going to get into a lot of dangerous situations, so who could be the next victim?

Brown Ben Plumm or some other Second Sons? Crucial players in Meereen (Skahaz, Reznak, Hizdahr, the Green Grace)? Barristan Selmy? Victarion Greyjoy? Some Yunkish guys and/or Volantenes who are going to come?

Has anybody ever discussed that loose end?

Years ago now, and you might remember this Lord Varys, but it was actually before I joined or even knew about this forum, a number of literary critics did convincing comparisons of Tyrion to Roman emperor Claudius.  I enjoyed those essays and George himself appreciated them, iirc, so it was with some amusement when Dance came out that I read of Tyrion's suspicions about Illyrio's dish of mushrooms, almost a non-sequitor, no ostensible reason for it.  But Claudius was murdered with a dish of mushrooms, and I think that was an obvious one from George to that group of essayists.

With that in mind, and from various other allusions, narrative and thematic, I've always thought Tyrion would win the Game of Thrones by attrition if nothing else, by the end. Or maybe on purpose.  He's changed. We've got a long way to go, but maybe that second group of mushrooms is meant to destroy anyone standing between him and the throne in the end.  Just a hypothesis!

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Okay. What the hell do I know, anyway ;-).

Frog-Boy has the build and features of a young GRRM.  That gives him ten times the plot armor of any fan-favorite Mary Sue or Gary Stu.  Frog-Boy will be the Frog That Became a Prince (That Was Promised)j.

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On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 9:31 PM, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion kept some of them after killing both Yezzan and Nurse, so there are still some mushrooms left to use later. And the fact that George deliberately told us that Tyrion kept them implies he already knows how Tyrion is going to use them later. 

I don't recall these details off the top of my head.  But Tyrion has been stashing poison, and contemplating its use, since his King's Landing days, when he bent over backwards to frame himself for the murder of Joffrey.

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On 4/28/2019 at 9:31 PM, Lord Varys said:

We are talking about Tyrion's mushrooms from ADwD, of course. Tyrion kept some of them after killing both Yezzan and Nurse, so there are still some mushrooms left to use later. And the fact that George deliberately told us that Tyrion kept them implies he already knows how Tyrion is going to use them later. He knows Tyrion is going to (have to) use that poison later. Back when I read I thought it might be used much later in the story on Illyrio and/or Varys as payback, but that would be pretty far down the road. Prior to that Tyrion is likely going to get into a lot of dangerous situations, so who could be the next victim?

Brown Ben Plumm or some other Second Sons? Crucial players in Meereen (Skahaz, Reznak, Hizdahr, the Green Grace)? Barristan Selmy? Victarion Greyjoy? Some Yunkish guys and/or Volantenes who are going to come?

Has anybody ever discussed that loose end?

He'll carry that poison in his boot until he gets to the Eyrie then use it on Sansa to get out of that bad marriage deal.  Serve her a dose of her own medicine.  That means Tysha assumes her role as his real wife.  Even Penny is preferable to Sansa.  At least Penny is not a bad person.  

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22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Somebody has to ride Rhaegal. Else the dragon is going to stay in Slaver's Bay. We have Tyrion for Viserion, and Victarion could only claim Rhaegal if Dragonbinder worked properly. If it doesn't then somebody else has to do that. Which means Ben really is the only candidate left.

I don't think that either of these dragon will have a rider very soon in TWOW.

Tyrion's taming of Viserion will likely be similar to Nettles re Sheepstealer. Slowly gaining his trust, maybe nursing him back to health after a injury (these Tolosi slingers  give me bad vibes), approaching him with the help of Ben and Missadei, etc.

Rhaegal's rider is more contentious. He is certainly more dangerous than Viserion, and things could easily go in different ways. From being claimed by Euron thanks to the dragonhorn (I'm skeptical of that but I don't see Victarion as a dragon rider) to remain wild and follow his mother wherever she goes until being finally claimed by Jon.

It is possible however that a number of people will try to claim Rhaegal and pay for that. Starting with Victarion, but maybe others, Daario, Euron or even Aegon.

But I don't see Ben becoming a dragon rider. The guy is just too petty for that.

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45 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

I don't think that either of these dragon will have a rider very soon in TWOW.

Tyrion's taming of Viserion will likely be similar to Nettles re Sheepstealer. Slowly gaining his trust, maybe nursing him back to health after a injury (these Tolosi slingers  give me bad vibes), approaching him with the help of Ben and Missadei, etc.

Rhaegal's rider is more contentious. He is certainly more dangerous than Viserion, and things could easily go in different ways. From being claimed by Euron thanks to the dragonhorn (I'm skeptical of that but I don't see Victarion as a dragon rider) to remain wild and follow his mother wherever she goes until being finally claimed by Jon.

Why do people think that Tyrion, if he gets a dragon, will get Viserion?  Why not Rhaegal?  Is it simply that Tyrion fans want him to get the bigger, nicer dragon?

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13 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Why do people think that Tyrion, if he gets a dragon, will get Viserion?  Why not Rhaegal?  Is it simply that Tyrion fans want him to get the bigger, nicer dragon?

Well, there is a theory that Jon's will actually ride Viserion. The theory is based on that the emotional connection of Dany with Viserion is stronger than with Rhaegal. Let's see if I find it.

Maybe this? https://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/146725239070/i-saw-in-one-of-your-answers-that-you-thought

Anyway. Rhaegal is not smaller than Viserion, but from what we have seen in ADWD, Rhaegal is more dangerous. It may mean that Viserion will be easier to tame for a non-Targaryen.

Besides there are few things that point to Tyrion becoming close to Viserion.

- if the dragonhorn works, it will be on Rhaegal, who is the one actually scouting the ironborn ships.

- the white cyvasse dragon falling at the feet of Tyrion

- Viserion likes to dig, something that might be useful in Casterly Rock

- Viserion likes Brown Ben Plumm, who was just hired by Tyrion.

 

 

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11 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I don't recall these details off the top of my head.  But Tyrion has been stashing poison, and contemplating its use, since his King's Landing days, when he bent over backwards to frame himself for the murder of Joffrey.

If he had such poisons, I doubt they allowed him to take them with him into the black cells, no?

13 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Years ago now, and you might remember this Lord Varys, but it was actually before I joined or even knew about this forum, a number of literary critics did convincing comparisons of Tyrion to Roman emperor Claudius.  I enjoyed those essays and George himself appreciated them, iirc, so it was with some amusement when Dance came out that I read of Tyrion's suspicions about Illyrio's dish of mushrooms, almost a non-sequitor, no ostensible reason for it.  But Claudius was murdered with a dish of mushrooms, and I think that was an obvious one from George to that group of essayists.

There are parallels between Claudius (as portrayed by Robert Graves and in the TV show), so the mushrooms could indeed be a nod in that direction. But I'm not sure how that's going to help us to figure out what he is going to do with the remaining mushrooms - if he truly has any left. Might be I confused the passage that stated he still had some before he killed Nurse. But I doubt he used all he had left to kill him.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Tyrion's taming of Viserion will likely be similar to Nettles re Sheepstealer. Slowly gaining his trust, maybe nursing him back to health after a injury (these Tolosi slingers  give me bad vibes), approaching him with the help of Ben and Missadei, etc.

Viserion flew back to the city. Doubt he is going to get injured. He could, of course, come back later, but Tyrion is *never* going to try to mount a dragon unless he has reason to believe he can do the trick. He must know about the Sowing and the morons who tried to mount Silverwing after Second Tumbleton.

What do you think could convince Tyrion that he has it in him to become a dragonrider? He believes you need the blood of dragonlords to do that. In fact, if he is not Aerys II's son or does not believe that this is the case he is more likely to push Brown Ben to claim a dragon because he knows he has the potential to it. He is descended from both Aegon IV and Princess Elaena, giving him more than just a drop of Targaryen blood.

Dragonbinder could, perhaps, also help Tyrion to mount a dragon if he figured out how to use it. But then he would likely not use the method of Nettles to win his trust. He would just command the dragon.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Rhaegal's rider is more contentious. He is certainly more dangerous than Viserion, and things could easily go in different ways. From being claimed by Euron thanks to the dragonhorn (I'm skeptical of that but I don't see Victarion as a dragon rider) to remain wild and follow his mother wherever she goes until being finally claimed by Jon.

Jon is not going to claim a dragon that wasn't ridden before. That would be a waste of potential. And there will come a time - sooner rather than later - when it will be impossible for Dany to drag an unclaimed dragon with her even if he was willing to do that (which I honestly doubt he would, since dragons seem to be stationary creatures - they do not migrate of their own free will). Drogon was starting to prey on children, and chances are pretty high that life around a growing half-wild dragon is simply not going to be safe. There is a reason why George has introduced various concepts - Dragonbinder, people with Targaryen blood - as potential means to give the two other dragons riders.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

But I don't see Ben becoming a dragon rider. The guy is just too petty for that.

If it is not Victarion right now then it must be Ben. He is the only one aside from Tyrion that could do it. And there is a reason why Brown Ben is descended from two Targaryens. In fact, the only reason he has that illustrious ancestry is likely that he can become a dragonrider. And if he does he'll put Ulf and Hugh to shame. Up until now the man was cautious and smart but like an average guy winning ten or twenty million in the lottery he will change considerably if he is suddenly a dragonrider.

From Ben the dragon could then later pass on to Euron or Aegon or whoever else he is supposed to be ridden by before Jon gets him. Tyrion and Dany should keep their dragons until either of them dies - which might not happen at all, or at least only at the very end of the series (when the dragons might die, too).

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I am pretty much certain Tyrion will use the mushrooms again. As to who though. hmmm. I think it might be a long time before he uses them though. Like not till he is back in Westeros.

As to Dragons. Brown Ben definitely as Tyrion knows his heritage and will encourage it. I do think that you need the blood to fly a dragon and I don't see anyone else in Mereen other than Tyrion; who has no idea he is a Targaryen bastard, who has it. But there is a rather convenient dragon horn there. However I don't think it is as easy to use as Victarion is assuming/hoping and I don't think Moqorro is to be trusted by the IB.  

I am pretty much certain that the Hellhorn can only be blown by a fire wight. "No mortal man shall sound me and live" as well as "blood for fire, fire for blood" are pretty major clues that one needs to be in receipt of the fire kiss spell. Which conveniently Moqorro is. I mean how else did he survive ten days and nights adrift in the baking hot southern oceans with no drinking water or food and prior to the storm he is awake all night at his fires as well as being around in the day to chat to Tyrion etc. He is without doubt a wight.  So what it comes down to I think is who he serves. And that is Dany not Victarion. Ultimately though it is maybe the Red Temple, which makes for another betrayal possibility for Dany.  But I haven't thought about that so am just throwing it out there as an idea. 

Personally I don't think Victarion is getting out of Mereen alive. 

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All that aside though. Barristan could reveal Tyrion's heritage to him. If Tyrion finds his way to Barristan in Mereen there is a good chance the old KG could know about what happened between his mother and Aerys. KG go everywhere in the Red Keep and keep the Kings secrets. 

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Posted (edited)

To combine the symbols we're using,

Tyrion carries poison in his boot because he doesn't have a signet ring to carry there.  He carries a kingmaker of another sort.  He's a reacher, not a haver.   So I don't think he'll earn a dragon by Targish blood.  Because that'd be like he had a signet ring all along.   He knows all the dragon science so that he can use that lore to cheat somehow.  He'll science a dragon.

That Moqorro stuff was intriguing!  I'd love to see the fire church steal a dragon because they can forge a dragonlord's signature, magically speaking.  I wonder if the fire faith needs to be scathed, cleansed by Danny's fire because hers burns cleaner and theirs burns dirty (shadow taint).   Their R'hollr attitude seems callous, like sometimes they just look for someone to burn because it's been a while since the last burning.  And that attitude needs an adjustment before Danny would trust them to lead the continent for her (shepherds for her urban flock).   How can you put a face on that confrontation?    Have Moqorro steal a drake and dis Danny's fire, saying as he flies off that dragons shouldn't be left in the hands of amatuers.

Vic, I don't know how he comes out of this either.   I want him to face off with Euron more than I want a clegane bowl, cuz I like him, but he seems to have been set up for failure like the frog prince was.   Vic carrying Tyrion on his shoulders would be the perfect soldier, brains and brawn.

 

For a serious guess at whom Tyrion poisons, his spies might succeed at tracking the Green Harpy to a restaurant, but he doesn't know which one of the party of eight to kill, so he sneaks into the kitchen and poisons them all.   

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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12 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, there is a theory that Jon's will actually ride Viserion. The theory is based on that the emotional connection of Dany with Viserion is stronger than with Rhaegal.

Jon's more likely to ride the Dragon of Winterfell.  But that's an unpopular idea.

12 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Anyway. Rhaegal is not smaller than Viserion, but from what we have seen in ADWD, Rhaegal is more dangerous. It may mean that Viserion will be easier to tame for a non-Targaryen.

Apparently, you're right.  I found nothing about Rhaegal being smaller.  I'm not sure where I got that idea.  However, Viserion was the first to break his chains.  Maybe he's hotter.

12 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Besides there are few things that point to Tyrion becoming close to Viserion.

- if the dragonhorn works, it will be on Rhaegal, who is the one actually scouting the ironborn ships.

People, and especially dragons, can be quite mobile during battle situations.  Anyhow, it is possible that Victarion will force some captured dwarf to blow the horn.

12 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

- the white cyvasse dragon falling at the feet of Tyrion

- Viserion likes to dig, something that might be useful in Casterly Rock

- Viserion likes Brown Ben Plumm, who was just hired by Tyrion.

Sure, but Rhaegal is green, which is the color of envy.  This, and his nasty disposition, is just perfect for the wicked, bitter, vengeful Tyrion.

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9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

As to Dragons. Brown Ben definitely as Tyrion knows his heritage and will encourage it. I do think that you need the blood to fly a dragon and I don't see anyone else in Mereen other than Tyrion; who has no idea he is a Targaryen bastard, who has it. But there is a rather convenient dragon horn there. However I don't think it is as easy to use as Victarion is assuming/hoping and I don't think Moqorro is to be trusted by the IB.

Sure, chances are very small that Moqorro has Victarion's best interests at heart.

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I am pretty much certain that the Hellhorn can only be blown by a fire wight. "No mortal man shall sound me and live" as well as "blood for fire, fire for blood" are pretty major clues that one needs to be in receipt of the fire kiss spell. Which conveniently Moqorro is. I mean how else did he survive ten days and nights adrift in the baking hot southern oceans with no drinking water or food and prior to the storm he is awake all night at his fires as well as being around in the day to chat to Tyrion etc. He is without doubt a wight.  So what it comes down to I think is who he serves. And that is Dany not Victarion. Ultimately though it is maybe the Red Temple, which makes for another betrayal possibility for Dany.  But I haven't thought about that so am just throwing it out there as an idea. 

We don't know how Moqorro survived his stint in the sea, he could have taken a sufficient amount of water and provisions with him, knowing what would happen, but that's indeed a stretch. However, he does not have to be resurrected guy. I don't think Mel is one such, either, rather a person filled with fire.

The idea that Moqorro is eventually going to blow the horn isn't bad - if that were the case he would be definitely fooling Vic right now.

However, the truly vexing question is what the plot purpose of the horn is if Ben and Tyrion can claim a dragon anyway. If no dragon is going to be stolen what the hell does the thing do in the story?

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Personally I don't think Victarion is getting out of Mereen alive. 

Yeah, it is difficult to imagine otherwise.

9 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

All that aside though. Barristan could reveal Tyrion's heritage to him. If Tyrion finds his way to Barristan in Mereen there is a good chance the old KG could know about what happened between his mother and Aerys. KG go everywhere in the Red Keep and keep the Kings secrets. 

Yeah, that's the standard explanation as to how Tyrion is going to learn about his true heritage, eventually learning that he could claim a dragon. However, I also have put forth the notion that we are going to see another glimpse of 'heroic Tyrion' again during the battle with, perhaps, a dragon ending up threatening Penny and he simply jumps the dragon to get him away from her. That way he could basically become a dragonrider the same way as Prince Aemond did. If something like that were to happen, Selmy could still tell him later why it happened. Because neither Tyrion or Selmy are just going to believe a mere Lannister can become a dragonrider without any good reason.

There is, of course, also the fact that Selmy conveniently never saw Tyrion in ADwD nor did Tyrion ever give us any insight into his relationship with Selmy back at Robert's court. They must have interacted with each other occasionally, and if Selmy knew Tyrion was Aerys II's son rather than Tywin's then this may have influenced Selmy's behavior in some manner. Also, Selmy would, of course, have also thought about this thing had he actually met Tyrion when he became a POV.

15 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

People, and especially dragons, can be quite mobile during battle situations.  Anyhow, it is possible that Victarion will force some captured dwarf to blow the horn.

Sure, but all we argue is that the last we saw of Rhaegal and Viserion had Viserion back in the city and Rhaegal out flying across the water. As it looks like right now, Rhaegal is the one being affected by the first horn blow. And then we'll have to wait and see whether anyone is going to be able to blow the horn a second time...

This doesn't mean, however, that the sound of the horn is not also going to reach Viserion and affect him, too, in some manner. After all, does the horn know which dragon is meant if more than one dragon can hear its blow? Probably not. In that sense the entire setup to sound the horn three times might be nonsense. But I'd still maintain that the dragon being the closest to the horn is going to be the one being affected the most, which means, say, that if the horn blow is going to drive the dragons into a mad frenzy Rhaegal is going to run amok and burn Victarion and his entire ship, ripping men to pieces on it left and right whereas Viserion might just have milder episode of black rage, running amok in the city or in the camps outside (which could be where Tyrion mounts him if my scenario about heroic Tyrion above has any merit).

15 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Sure, but Rhaegal is green, which is the color of envy.  This, and his nasty disposition, is just perfect for the wicked, bitter, vengeful Tyrion.

Oh, but Rhaegal is named after Rhaegar. What dragon better suited to eventually become the mount of Jon Snow?

I personally don't like the idea all that much of one of the dragons having a string of riders nor the idea that Dany's enemies are going to gain 1-2 of Dany's dragons for a time until they are finally claimed by their proper riders, but if Aegon and/or Euron are supposed to become dragonriders eventually then this is likely the only believable scenario left.

The idea that the Cannibal is still lying dormant beneath the Dragonmount somewhere was, in my opinion, pretty much tossed out by FaB since the dragon is clearly still around during the Regency era and there are more than enough candidates around to claim him in 136-153 AC - Baela, Viserys, and especially Aemond's son. And if he were to finally get a rider he could also die in battle like the other Targaryen dragons. The same goes for Silverwing as well, of course.

Thus the only other chance for Aegon to acquire a dragon would be if he got his hands on a dragon egg and hatched it, but that would then just be symbol of power and kingship, not a creature he could actually ride to war.

In that sense the only chance for a proper dragon battle during the Second Dance would be if one of Dany's enemies actually claimed one of her dragons. And here, I think, one certainly could see Brown Ben Plumm trying to pull Hugh/Ulf after his arrival in Westeros - say, defecting from Dany to Aegon only to get killed by Aegon's people (because of his presumptuousness) so that their pretender finally can claim a dragon of his own.

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39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but all we argue is that the last we saw of Rhaegal and Viserion had Viserion back in the city and Rhaegal out flying across the water.

That was the last thing we saw.  Then Tyrion was in his tent, having a white fit of rage and almost (?) strangling Penny.  By the time he leaves his tent, he learns that the Windblown have betrayed the besiegers, probably by switching sides.  (My guess:  They switched sides after they saw Viserion being ridden by a man wearing the tattered cloak of their missing leader and giving certain signals).

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As it looks like right now, Rhaegal is the one being affected by the first horn blow. 

Maybe.  And in my case, I think Viserion is already taken.  But Victarion is not going to blow the horn himself.  Tyrion may end up being the other one affected.

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, but Rhaegal is named after Rhaegar.

I'm guessing that GRRM, with his sense of irony, may have given Viserion a more Rhaegar-like disposition; and given Rhaegal a more Viserys-like disposition.

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I personally don't like the idea all that much of one of the dragons having a string of riders …

Such possibilities must be kept open.  Dragons can die and leave their riders alive; and riders can die and leave their dragons alive.  I think things are going to be a lot murkier than having 3 dragonriders and their dragons by the midpoint of WINDS, all on the same team, and all with invincible plot armor … because "the dragon has 3 heads".  GRRM will be trickier than that, I think.

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

… nor the idea that Dany's enemies are going to gain 1-2 of Dany's dragons for a time until they are finally claimed by their proper riders,

I guess this idea of each dragon having a "proper" rider is derived from the "dragon has 3 heads" prophesy.  But even if that prophesy refers to dragonriders, it does not necessarily refer to Dany's three.  Precedent may be taken as suggesting that the riders will be siblings, but nothing suggests the dragons must be.  

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

but if Aegon and/or Euron are supposed to become dragonriders eventually then this is likely the only believable scenario left.

There are all sorts of potential scenarios floating out there, whether you find them believe them or not.   We've got blood sorcerers running around trying to wake dragons out of stone using "kings bood" magical sacrifice, and "statues" of dragons at Dragonstone which are apparently dragons with advanced greyscale (unless you buy the official explanation that the ancient Valyrians were just REALLY good sculptors).  We've got the dragon Summer saw at Winterfell.  We've got a dragon (Sheepstealer?) at the Mountains of the Moon.  We've got the dragon of Skane; the dragon of Hardhome; the dragon of Skagos.  We've got Cannibal and Silverwing, all missing in action.  We've got all sorts of eggs and clutches of eggs unaccounted for.  

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that the Cannibal is still lying dormant beneath the Dragonmount somewhere was, in my opinion, pretty much tossed out by FaB since the dragon is clearly still around during the Regency era and there are more than enough candidates around to claim him in 136-153 AC - Baela, Viserys, and especially Aemond's son.

The bottom line is, none of us know where Cannibal is.

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Thus the only other chance for Aegon to acquire a dragon would be if he got his hands on a dragon egg and hatched it, but that would then just be symbol of power and kingship, not a creature he could actually ride to war.

We've got all these blood sorcerers running around trying to wake dragons out of stone.  We've got the mystery of what happened to Loras on Dragonstone.

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7 hours ago, NonoNono said:

Can't imagine he somehow still has them after all this time.

He does.  He fed Nurse "some nice slices of mushroom" in the soup which he made for him.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, chances are very small that Moqorro has Victarion's best interests at heart.

We don't know how Moqorro survived his stint in the sea, he could have taken a sufficient amount of water and provisions with him, knowing what would happen, but that's indeed a stretch. However, he does not have to be resurrected guy. I don't think Mel is one such, either, rather a person filled with fire.

 

See, I'm convinced Mellisandre is a fire wight too. I know there are some discrepancies between her and say Beric or Stoneheart but GRRM has famously said not to look too hard at the magic and to me the similarities outweigh those. 

Mel; doesn't need to eat or drink

        She barely sleeps at all

        She is unaffected by the strangler

        She talks of the fire inside her

        She is confirmed to be much, much older than she appears; like possibly about 200yrs

         She is glamoured so god only knows what is hiding under that Ruby's spell, she could be as beat up as Beric for all we     know.

Beric; doesn't need to eat

          doesn't need to drink

           doesn't sleep; as told to us by Arya

ASOS Arya VII

Quote

Lord Beric himself did not eat. Arya had never seen him eat, though from time to time he took a cup of wine. He did not seem to sleep, either. His good eye would often close, as if from weariness, but when you spoke to him it would flick open again at once.

 

This is the POV of Arya it is not Beric's internal thoughts on his sleep. It would be a mistake to assume her perceptions are entirely correct. Beric seems to at least attempt some sort of restorative period like a light sleep and this may well be identical to what Melisandre is referring to in her POV. 

LSH;   

        according to Thoros she does not sleep. 

AFFC Brienne VIII

Quote

"You told me she had gone to Fairmarket."

"And so she had. She returned whilst we were sleeping. She never sleeps herself."

     Thoros tells us that the flame of life was passed from Beric to Cat.

AFFC Brienne VIII

Quote
y said . . . they said that you were dead."
"She is," said Thoros of Myr. "The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose."

   This along with Thoros's description of the spell he calls a prayer that an actual fire is created.

ASOS Arya VII

Quote

I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul.

This aligns with Mellisandre referring to the fire inside her.  

ADWD Mellisandre

Quote

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand.

I'm reluctant to keep quoting as this post is growing huge. But we know from her chapter that she doesn't need to eat and only does it to prevent others being weirded out. She takes a sip of water or wine to ease a dry throat and we know from this quote that she feels physical discomfort. 

ADWD Mellisandre

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The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand.

Which is in line with a quote from ASOS which I can if you like try to re-find in which we are told that after one of Beric's resurrections it was a fortnight before he could sit a horse, due to the nature of the injury which killed him. 

Now lets look at Moqorro 

In Tyrion's chapters he tells us that Moqorro sits up all night tending his fire. But we also find Moqorro chatting away to Tyrion during the day time, so either he is getting far too little sleep or he just doesn't need much like Mel or perhaps anything beyond like Beric closing his eyes for a while. All of these seem similar and in line with differing perspectives on where the line is between true sleep and that hazey "I'm just resting my eyes" sleep. 

Next is how Moqorro was discovered. 

ADWD The Iron Suitor

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The morning sun was shining off the water in ripples of light too bright to look upon. Victarion's head had begun to pound, though whether from the sun, his hand, or the doubts that troubled him, he could not say. He made his way below to his cabin, where the air was cool and dim.

 This first quote is to give insight into the conditions at sea. Vic says he doesn't know why his head is pounding. But all of us can imagine these conditions. the sun is too bright, it is too hot, too humid. And it's exhausting.

ADWD  The Iron Suitor. 

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We found him clinging to a broken spar," said the Vole. "He was ten days in the water after his ship went down."

"If he were ten days in the water, he'd be dead, or mad from drinking seawater." Salt water was holy; Aeron Damphair and other priests might bless men with it and swallow a mouthful or two from time to time to strengthen their faith, but no mortal man could drink of the deep sea for days at a time and hope to live. "You claim to be a sorcerer?" Victarion asked the prisoner.

"No, Captain," the black man answered in the Common Tongue. His voice was so deep it seemed to come from the bottom of the sea. "I am but a humble slave of R'hllor, the Lord of Light."

Moqorro has been adrift in these conditions for ten days and ten nights. He's survived by clinging to a broken piece of wood. A spar; that is a mast, boom, yardarm, etc. So not a big piece one would be able to sit upon, or lay upon to sleep. He was clinging to it meaning he was in the water. We are told next on the very page that this is suspicious; no man can drink salt water! next Vic gives us a description of his clothing. 

ADWD; The Iron Suitor

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R'hllor. A red priest, then. Victarion had seen such men in foreign cities, tending their sacred fires. Those had worn rich red robes of silk and velvet and lambswool. This one was dressed in faded, salt-stained rags that clung to his thick legs and hung about his torso in tatters … but when the captain peered at the rags more closely, it did appear as if they might once have been red. "A pink priest," Victarion announced.

A demon priest," said Wulfe One-Ear. He spat.

 His clothing is hanging in tattered rags, bleached by the sun and the salty sea. He has no where he could have retained food supplies or fresh water about his person.  Remember with writing and story telling it is about what the author chooses to tell us. Not what is not explicitly said. The writer conveys clues and information via the text. Here GRRM has deliberately drawn to our attention. 1;the beating sun. 2; the fact he's clinging to a piece of wood. 3; the fact no one could survive this scenario. 4; that his clothing is ruined and in tatters, leaving no place to carry supplies let alone have been capable of accessing them whilst clinging to a strip of wood. And to top it all off he's included accusations of sorcery and demons.  

Then look at what GRRM has said about Fire Wights

Time Magazine 13/07/2017

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Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

Here GRRM says He is a wight animated by fire. He also makes it really clear that these guys are not actually alive. There blood ain't flowing. hearts not beating. This one must assume carries over to other organs and functions. So lungs not breathing; which explains Mellisandre's survival of the strangler. If the oesophagus is constricted by a plant which has a physical effect upon the muscles surrounding the trachea but the lack of oxygen is irrelevant then so what! It isn't contradicted by Beric's hanging either as we both know that there are ways to hang a man. If Beric's neck was snapped severing his spine then that is a different type of death, in line with the other ways by which he has died and been raised again. This also has consequences relating to show Jon and the whole idea of resurrection in the books too and what not but I shan't go into that now.  Of course he might be saying animated by fire as in via that method of magic as the Ice Wights are animated by Ice Magic. We have no idea what actually happens in there case as there has not been any possibility to discover it. 

to my mind Mel and Moqorro have got to be fire wights too. 

I hope this has been interesting for you.  I know you probably won't be swayed. That's OK But I feel the evidence is there. And that it is pretty convincing. 

This is you. 

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The idea that Moqorro is eventually going to blow the horn isn't bad - if that were the case he would be definitely fooling Vic right now.

However, the truly vexing question is what the plot purpose of the horn is if Ben and Tyrion can claim a dragon anyway. If no dragon is going to be stolen what the hell does the thing do in the story?

Yes, I see Moqorro teasing Victarion. Giving him enough rope to hang himself with so to speak. He's telling him enough about the horn to wet his whistle and yet he's definitely not telling him enough to succeed in blowing it. As I pointed out. The inscription veritably screams Fire Wight required. More so now that we have that information from GRRM via Time that wights are not actually alive. No mortal man shall blow me and live. Well in that case you need a person capable of blowing it but who isn't mortal. An undead wight with consciousness seems the only option. Add what we know of those who have blown it? They die burning from the inside out. So in that case a person with a fire inside them already should be fine. And our fire wights do have a fire inside them as we've learnt via Thoros, Beric, and Mel. In the preview chapter from winds Vic is still trying to work it all out and is seeking "volunteers" to blow the horn. Which implies Moqorro despite seeming helpful to Vic by healing his arm and translating the glyphs. Isn't really helping him at all. I've wondered at this stage if the whole enterprise for reaching Dany via a storm and the IB was all about retrieving that Hellhorn. After all Benerro had to have some reason for wanting Moqorro to encounter Victarion on his way to Dany. He sent him on the stinky steward which would be broken in the storm and where Vic would come across him for a reason. Otherwise why not just send him on another boat which would get him directly to Dany. He can assist her either way. Vic is going to her either way. So what do they seek to gain from waylaying Vic and getting to him before he gets to her? My guess now is probably it's about the horn and about being in the right place at the right time to blow it. Right now when Dany is not in residence but when the dragons are making a nuisance of themselves in her absence seems ideal.  If Moqorro  blows the horn to bring Rhaegal and Viserion to heel. He's done Dany's forces a great favour. They can focus on beating the combined hostile forces of her enemies without her children causing absolute chaos.  This way when she returns not only has Moqorro brought her some ships; easy to claim the glory of that if Vic's dead and the IB are leaderless. But he's protected her armies from the dragons indiscriminate killing and given her Mereen forces the edge they need to defeat the enemy.  Sounds like a plan. 

But I doubt the plan will come off without a hitch.  So lord only knows what will actually happen. 

As to why GRRM would write the horn in if Ben & Tyrion can fly the dragons back to Westeros. Well. I think it's far too vague to guess at this point. I'm inclined to think the horn might not work. I mean the magic tying the horns to the dragons might be bloodline specific. And we don't know where this one originated. Or it might only offer a temporary solution. Maybe the person blowing it has t be a wight but that wight has to "belong" to the dragon lord whose blood is in those dragons? 

I've thought of loads of scenario's and every time I come back to this. We just don't have enough damn info on the horns! 

I'm desperate for F&B to go up onto a search of ice and fire because I swear I read a throw away line in that where the dragonlords are said to have sounded their eerie horns as they swooped in to attack cities back before Valyria fell. But can I fuck find it now! 

more you

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Yeah, that's the standard explanation as to how Tyrion is going to learn about his true heritage, eventually learning that he could claim a dragon. However, I also have put forth the notion that we are going to see another glimpse of 'heroic Tyrion' again during the battle with, perhaps, a dragon ending up threatening Penny and he simply jumps the dragon to get him away from her. That way he could basically become a dragonrider the same way as Prince Aemond did. If something like that were to happen, Selmy could still tell him later why it happened. Because neither Tyrion or Selmy are just going to believe a mere Lannister can become a dragonrider without any good reason.

There is, of course, also the fact that Selmy conveniently never saw Tyrion in ADwD nor did Tyrion ever give us any insight into his relationship with Selmy back at Robert's court. They must have interacted with each other occasionally, and if Selmy knew Tyrion was Aerys II's son rather than Tywin's then this may have influenced Selmy's behavior in some manner. Also, Selmy would, of course, have also thought about this thing had he actually met Tyrion when he became a POV.

Haha, I had no idea! OK I guess in fact I had never really considered before how Tyrion would discover his true heritage. I mean almost everyone else is dead. So I guess Barristan is the obvious candidate.  And that makes perfect sense when you point out that Barristan never gave us a POV with Tyrion around.  And reminds me of other deliberate seeming omissions such as Aemon is blind so can not see Jon. Jaime has nothing to do with him when in WF. Barristan meets up with them on the rd thus also never setting eyes on Jon. 

I do like the idea of Tyrion just thinking fuck it when he finds himself in the tightest of spots. And being as astonished as anyone else that the dragon submits to him. I can see that being in line with both his character and GRRM's style.  If I'm honest this is my preferred method for him getting a dragon; who will be Viscerion. obvs. In which case let me propose this totally unsubstantiated idea. 

Tyrion flies Viscerion back to Westeros. The Hellhorn is used to bring Rhaegal. The Second Sons follow in the ships as Tyrion managed to turn them back to Dany during the battle and they're coming to Westeros cos Tyrion promised them gold. All the gold of Casterly Rock. But Tyrion being Tyrion finds a way out of handing it over/it's impossible for this to be done under the circumstances upon their return. Seeing this BBP steals Viscerion whilst in Westeros and defects to fAegon and is Dany's betrayal for gold.  Thus giving fAegon's side a dragon and enacting the second dance. Now we know that each dragon may have multiple riders in their lifetime. But that no one may ride more than one dragon in theirs. Yes. So Tyrion can not mount Rhaegal and the dance see's a repeat of the dragon seeds with various attempts by other nobility who have some traces of tragaryen blood.  

Off the cuff thought it as I typed it idea.  

 

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1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

See, I'm convinced Mellisandre is a fire wight too. I know there are some discrepancies between her and say Beric or Stoneheart but GRRM has famously said not to look too hard at the magic and to me the similarities outweigh those. 

Mel; doesn't need to eat or drink

        She barely sleeps at all

        She is unaffected by the strangler

        She talks of the fire inside her

        She is confirmed to be much, much older than she appears; like possibly about 200yrs

         She is glamoured so god only knows what is hiding under that Ruby's spell, she could be as beat up as Beric for all we     know.

Beric; doesn't need to eat

          doesn't need to drink

           doesn't sleep; as told to us by Arya

ASOS Arya VII

 

This is the POV of Arya it is not Beric's internal thoughts on his sleep. It would be a mistake to assume her perceptions are entirely correct. Beric seems to at least attempt some sort of restorative period like a light sleep and this may well be identical to what Melisandre is referring to in her POV. 

LSH;   

        according to Thoros she does not sleep. 

AFFC Brienne VIII

     Thoros tells us that the flame of life was passed from Beric to Cat.

AFFC Brienne VIII

   This along with Thoros's description of the spell he calls a prayer that an actual fire is created.

ASOS Arya VII

This aligns with Mellisandre referring to the fire inside her.  

ADWD Mellisandre

I'm reluctant to keep quoting as this post is growing huge. But we know from her chapter that she doesn't need to eat and only does it to prevent others being weirded out. She takes a sip of water or wine to ease a dry throat and we know from this quote that she feels physical discomfort. 

ADWD Mellisandre

Which is in line with a quote from ASOS which I can if you like try to re-find in which we are told that after one of Beric's resurrections it was a fortnight before he could sit a horse, due to the nature of the injury which killed him. 

Now lets look at Moqorro 

In Tyrion's chapters he tells us that Moqorro sits up all night tending his fire. But we also find Moqorro chatting away to Tyrion during the day time, so either he is getting far too little sleep or he just doesn't need much like Mel or perhaps anything beyond like Beric closing his eyes for a while. All of these seem similar and in line with differing perspectives on where the line is between true sleep and that hazey "I'm just resting my eyes" sleep. 

Next is how Moqorro was discovered. 

ADWD The Iron Suitor

 This first quote is to give insight into the conditions at sea. Vic says he doesn't know why his head is pounding. But all of us can imagine these conditions. the sun is too bright, it is too hot, too humid. And it's exhausting.

ADWD  The Iron Suitor. 

Moqorro has been adrift in these conditions for ten days and ten nights. He's survived by clinging to a broken piece of wood. A spar; that is a mast, boom, yardarm, etc. So not a big piece one would be able to sit upon, or lay upon to sleep. He was clinging to it meaning he was in the water. We are told next on the very page that this is suspicious; no man can drink salt water! next Vic gives us a description of his clothing. 

ADWD; The Iron Suitor

 His clothing is hanging in tattered rags, bleached by the sun and the salty sea. He has no where he could have retained food supplies or fresh water about his person.  Remember with writing and story telling it is about what the author chooses to tell us. Not what is not explicitly said. The writer conveys clues and information via the text. Here GRRM has deliberately drawn to our attention. 1;the beating sun. 2; the fact he's clinging to a piece of wood. 3; the fact no one could survive this scenario. 4; that his clothing is ruined and in tatters, leaving no place to carry supplies let alone have been capable of accessing them whilst clinging to a strip of wood. And to top it all off he's included accusations of sorcery and demons.  

Then look at what GRRM has said about Fire Wights

Time Magazine 13/07/2017

Here GRRM says He is a wight animated by fire. He also makes it really clear that these guys are not actually alive. There blood ain't flowing. hearts not beating. This one must assume carries over to other organs and functions. So lungs not breathing; which explains Mellisandre's survival of the strangler. If the oesophagus is constricted by a plant which has a physical effect upon the muscles surrounding the trachea but the lack of oxygen is irrelevant then so what! It isn't contradicted by Beric's hanging either as we both know that there are ways to hang a man. If Beric's neck was snapped severing his spine then that is a different type of death, in line with the other ways by which he has died and been raised again. This also has consequences relating to show Jon and the whole idea of resurrection in the books too and what not but I shan't go into that now.  Of course he might be saying animated by fire as in via that method of magic as the Ice Wights are animated by Ice Magic. We have no idea what actually happens in there case as there has not been any possibility to discover it. 

to my mind Mel and Moqorro have got to be fire wights too. 

I hope this has been interesting for you.  I know you probably won't be swayed. That's OK But I feel the evidence is there. And that it is pretty convincing. 

 

 

 

Melisandre's blood still flows, however.  Moreover, she still sleeps a little, even though she hopes that one day she can do completely without sleep, because her dreams trouble her.  And, whereas Beric finds it more and more difficult to remember the past, I don't think that's true of Melisandre.

IMHO, Melisandre has never died, as Beric did, but her magic is gradually stripping her of her humanity.  In that way, I think she's more like one of the Nazgul, than a wight.

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