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Lord Varys

Who is going to get poisoned by the mushrooms?

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10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

See, I'm convinced Mellisandre is a fire wight too. I know there are some discrepancies between her and say Beric or Stoneheart but GRRM has famously said not to look too hard at the magic and to me the similarities outweigh those. 

Mel; doesn't need to eat or drink

        She barely sleeps at all

        She is unaffected by the strangler

        She talks of the fire inside her

        She is confirmed to be much, much older than she appears; like possibly about 200yrs

         She is glamoured so god only knows what is hiding under that Ruby's spell, she could be as beat up as Beric for all we     know.

Beric; doesn't need to eat

          doesn't need to drink

           doesn't sleep; as told to us by Arya

ASOS Arya VII

Beric is a very distant figure, though, considering he was brought back from death six times. He would not be representative of all such creatures. Mel, on the other hand, gives no sign that she has died and come back before, gives no signs of memory loss in her POV, etc.

In fact, the very fact that George has said Cat would never come back as a POV precisely because she is undead and not (completely) human anymore makes it exceedingly unlikely that we are supposed to believe that Mel has 'lived through death', too. Also, the fact that she is still very much afraid of death, always looking to dangers for herself first in the fire, constantly praying that the sun is going to rise the next day, etc. makes it very unlikely she has experienced death before. After all, if you can be resurrected then death really isn't the end, isn't it?

I'd say Melisandre has grown beyond the need to eat is because she is literally fueled by fire. Whoever made her into a red priestess at whatever temple she was originally taught seems to have literally imbued her with magical fire. And that seems to be, I'd think, such a huge amount of energy that she was able to live longer than her natural lifespan despite the fact that fire consumes.

I very much doubt that the people who are resurrected by fire are going to last all that long in that state. In that sense, they are not comparable to Melisandre. Catelyn and Beric would have never lasted as long as she or as the wights of the Others (or Coldhands, for that matter).

I'm certainly on board with the idea that Moqorro is at least as special as Melisandre. His prophetic talents are very scary. I mean, how can he direct Victarion to those ships? All he could have seen in the fire would be the sea and the ships, no way to figure out where exactly such a vision would take place...

Also, we should not pretend we can figure out what exactly very skilled sorcerers like Mel or Moqorro can do. They certainly could have the ability to survive under conditions normal people could not. They don't have to be resurrected people for that.

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Here GRRM says He is a wight animated by fire. He also makes it really clear that these guys are not actually alive. There blood ain't flowing. hearts not beating. This one must assume carries over to other organs and functions. So lungs not breathing; which explains Mellisandre's survival of the strangler. If the oesophagus is constricted by a plant which has a physical effect upon the muscles surrounding the trachea but the lack of oxygen is irrelevant then so what! It isn't contradicted by Beric's hanging either as we both know that there are ways to hang a man. If Beric's neck was snapped severing his spine then that is a different type of death, in line with the other ways by which he has died and been raised again. This also has consequences relating to show Jon and the whole idea of resurrection in the books too and what not but I shan't go into that now.  Of course he might be saying animated by fire as in via that method of magic as the Ice Wights are animated by Ice Magic. We have no idea what actually happens in there case as there has not been any possibility to discover it. 

If Melisandre truly were as dead as George describes Beric and Catelyn above, then she wouldn't really be able to eat and drink and digest, etc. Granted, technically a glamor could hide that she is actually looking more like these two than a living woman, but there is also the fact that her reproductive organs still work, at least on a magical level.

Also, I'm not really sure whether George's own descriptions in that interview are fully in accord with the stories given. After all, if those people are literally dead and fueled by something that has pretty much nothing to do with their bodies then how can Beric die second to sixth time? You can only get killed if you are alive, right? If he was a proper zombie then he may have been injured during his 'later deaths' but he would not have actually died and Thoros would not have been forced to go through the ritual again to bring him back.

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, I see Moqorro teasing Victarion. Giving him enough rope to hang himself with so to speak. He's telling him enough about the horn to wet his whistle and yet he's definitely not telling him enough to succeed in blowing it. As I pointed out. The inscription veritably screams Fire Wight required. More so now that we have that information from GRRM via Time that wights are not actually alive. No mortal man shall blow me and live. Well in that case you need a person capable of blowing it but who isn't mortal. An undead wight with consciousness seems the only option. Add what we know of those who have blown it? They die burning from the inside out. So in that case a person with a fire inside them already should be fine. And our fire wights do have a fire inside them as we've learnt via Thoros, Beric, and Mel. In the preview chapter from winds Vic is still trying to work it all out and is seeking "volunteers" to blow the horn. Which implies Moqorro despite seeming helpful to Vic by healing his arm and translating the glyphs. Isn't really helping him at all. I've wondered at this stage if the whole enterprise for reaching Dany via a storm and the IB was all about retrieving that Hellhorn. After all Benerro had to have some reason for wanting Moqorro to encounter Victarion on his way to Dany. He sent him on the stinky steward which would be broken in the storm and where Vic would come across him for a reason. Otherwise why not just send him on another boat which would get him directly to Dany. He can assist her either way. Vic is going to her either way. So what do they seek to gain from waylaying Vic and getting to him before he gets to her? My guess now is probably it's about the horn and about being in the right place at the right time to blow it. Right now when Dany is not in residence but when the dragons are making a nuisance of themselves in her absence seems ideal.  If Moqorro  blows the horn to bring Rhaegal and Viserion to heel. He's done Dany's forces a great favour. They can focus on beating the combined hostile forces of her enemies without her children causing absolute chaos.  This way when she returns not only has Moqorro brought her some ships; easy to claim the glory of that if Vic's dead and the IB are leaderless. But he's protected her armies from the dragons indiscriminate killing and given her Mereen forces the edge they need to defeat the enemy.  Sounds like a plan. 

I think we actually do know what Moqorro's great mission as per Benerro is. It is to thwart Euron's plans. Remember Moqorro telling Tyrion about the great threat to Dany that can only be Euron before he leaves the ship? The idea is that Moqorro allows himself to be found by Victarion to be able to thwart Euron's plans and to enable the Ironborn to arrive at the right time to help defeat Dany's enemies. Without Moqorro Victarion would have either arrived too early or too late.

Mortal man is pretty dubious. Could also be a Valyrian dragonlord. Were those people 'mortal men'? Who knows? They themselves likely thought they were better than mortal men.

However, I'm literally at a loss what the plot point of Dragonbinder is after Moqorro ensured that neither Euron nor Victarion would not use the horn. He actually has two potential dragonriders in Meereen - Brown Ben and Tyrion - who should not exactly need the help of the horn to claim a dragon.

More so, considering the horn was likely originally in the possession of the Qartheen warlocks I very much doubt it is truly an artifact that helps a Valyrian dragonlord to master his own dragons. The Targaryens never needed such horns while they were ruling Westeros. Pyat Pree did not want to help Dany. He wanted to destroy her and kill or steal her dragons. In that sense I doubt that the horn is likely going to have a positive effect on the dragons.

And I think the hellhorn quote from FaB is a strong indication that Dragonbinder is not actually going to have a positive effect on anything:

Quote

His Grace grieved for Prince Aemon until the end of his days, but the Old King never dreamed that Aemon’s death in 92 AC would be like the hellhorns of Valyrian legend, bringing death and destruction down on all those who heard their sound.

This is clearly a tease. Nobody should expect something good to come from those horns after he or she has read that.

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm desperate for F&B to go up onto a search of ice and fire because I swear I read a throw away line in that where the dragonlords are said to have sounded their eerie horns as they swooped in to attack cities back before Valyria fell. But can I fuck find it now!

See above ;-).

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Haha, I had no idea! OK I guess in fact I had never really considered before how Tyrion would discover his true heritage. I mean almost everyone else is dead. So I guess Barristan is the obvious candidate.  And that makes perfect sense when you point out that Barristan never gave us a POV with Tyrion around.  And reminds me of other deliberate seeming omissions such as Aemon is blind so can not see Jon. Jaime has nothing to do with him when in WF. Barristan meets up with them on the rd thus also never setting eyes on Jon. 

Not sure, though, that Jon has anything of Rhaegar in his looks aside from, perhaps, very subtle things people would only realize if they had known him very well. Or other Targaryens, for that matter, since they should all look very much alike due to the incest. But even Aemon would likely only look for such things in Jon if he had any reason to believe he was a relation. If he had no reason to think that he would perhaps notice some similarities but see them as accidental. 

10 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Tyrion flies Viscerion back to Westeros. The Hellhorn is used to bring Rhaegal. The Second Sons follow in the ships as Tyrion managed to turn them back to Dany during the battle and they're coming to Westeros cos Tyrion promised them gold. All the gold of Casterly Rock. But Tyrion being Tyrion finds a way out of handing it over/it's impossible for this to be done under the circumstances upon their return. Seeing this BBP steals Viscerion whilst in Westeros and defects to fAegon and is Dany's betrayal for gold.  Thus giving fAegon's side a dragon and enacting the second dance. Now we know that each dragon may have multiple riders in their lifetime. But that no one may ride more than one dragon in theirs. Yes. So Tyrion can not mount Rhaegal and the dance see's a repeat of the dragon seeds with various attempts by other nobility who have some traces of tragaryen blood.  

Hm, but how could Ben steal Viserion if he is already bonded with Tyrion? If the dragons get riders in Slaver's Bay then one of them has to die for another rider to claim the dragon.

I think there is a lot of narrative potential in Ben actually becoming a dragonrider. For one, unlike Tyrion, Dany is going to mistrust him from the start considering his earlier betrayal. They might be able to overcome that rift for the time being because it is convenient that Rhaegal has a rider and they are thus able to (eventually) use that dragon in war (which they could not while the dragon was riderless) but we can be very certain that riding a dragon is going to cause Ben to dream grand dreams of his own.

And if his relationship with Dany had really deteriorated very much by the time they reached Westeros then him defecting to Aegon or Euron would actually be a very plausible scenario. Basically a variation of the story of the Two Betrayers.

Tyrion himself is not likely to play such a role early in his time with Dany.

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13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This also has consequences relating to [redacted] Jon and the whole idea of resurrection in the books too and what not but I shan't go into that now.  Of course he might be saying animated by fire as in via that method of magic as the Ice Wights are animated by Ice Magic. We have no idea what actually happens in there case as there has not been any possibility to discover it. 

to my mind Mel and Moqorro have got to be fire wights too. 

This fire wight stuff sounds right to me, and helps me to make a connection between Victarion and Jon Snow and some other potential parallels.

When the wight attacked at Castle Black, Jon Snow fought off Othor with burning drapes. He badly burned his hand:

... the cracked red skin oozed fluid, and fearsome blood blisters rose between his fingers, big as roaches. 'The maester says I'll have scars, but otherwise the hand should be as good as it was before.'

(AGoT, Chap. 60, Jon VIII)

This seems similar to Victarions hand injury, incurred in combat with Ser Talbert Serry, heir of Southsfield:

He caught Serry's blade in an iron fist. Lobstered steel crunched and a stab of pain made him grunt, yet Victarion held on. 'I am quick as well, boy,' he said as he ripped the sword from the knight's hand and flung it into the sea.

Ser Talbert's eyes went wide. 'My sword ...'

Victarion caught the lad about the throat with a bloody fist. 'Go and get it,' he said, forcing him backwards over the side into the bloodstained waters.

(AFfC, Chap. 29, The Reaver)

Is that similar to Jon Snow's struggle with Othor in Mormont's chambers? The outcome for Victarion's hand is similar:

[Maester Kerwin] "laid the edge of the dagger across the captain's palm and slashed. The pus that burst forth was thick and yellow as sour milk. ... Maester Kerwin pressed the dagger deep. This time it hurt, but blood welled up as well as pus, blood so dark that it looked black in the lantern light.

(ADwD, Chap. 56, The Iron Suitor)

He yanked off his glove and shoved his bad hand at the priest's face. ... 'He had a rose on his shield, the man who gave this to me. I scratched my hand on a thorn.'

'Even the smallest scratch can prove mortal, lord Captain, but if you will allow me, I will heal this.  I will need a blade. Silver would be best, but iron will serve. A brazier as well. I must needs light a fire. There will be pain. Terrible pain, such as you have never known. But when we are done, your hand will be returned to you.'

... Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester.

(ADwD, Chap. 56, The Iron Suitor)

I'm noticing references to roses in both the Jon Snow / Othor chapter: Jon sees Alliser Thorne right after returning to Castle Black with the Night's Watch brothers retrieving the wighted bodies of Othor and Jafer Flowers. So there is thorn and flower, like the rose and thorn that caused Victarion's wound. The word "rose" also appears in various connotations in both chapters.

There is also wordplay around the word "well." (I think "well" and "Wall" are opposites in ASOIAF, but "well" has a number of connotations.) Lobster imagery in Victarion's arc is probably linked to the crab claws eaten at the Castle Black feast in AGoT. The combination of rose and lobstered gauntlet imagery suggests a connection to the AFfC prologue, where Pate takes a valuable key from a gauntlet in the hope of securing funds to pay for the deflowering (and lifelong love, he hopes) of the young prostitute named Rosey.

(Not to get too far off on a tangent, but this re-read also helped me to connect Victarion and Moqorro to Mark Mullendore and his monkey. Mullendore loses part of his arm to a battle wound. He also loses his black and white monkey but Margaery's cousin, Megga Tyrell, loves him and wants to find him a new monkey. The Tyrell sigil, of course, is a rose; perhaps tying Mullendore to the rose motif mentioned in Jon and Victarion's chapters. Moqorro's black skin and white hair may be similar to Mullendore's black and white monkey. The monkeys climb around on the masts and spars of Victarion's fleet, and Moqorro was clinging to a spar when he was pulled from the water. The chapter where Moqorro is presented to Victarion includes a lot of description of the monkeys that have infested Victarion's ships after a provisioning stop at the Isle of Cedars. And I suspect the "cedars" name is a "seeders" pun on the "We Do Not Sow" words of House Greyjoy.)

Moqorro used fire to heal Victarion's hand, wounded by a thorn, but Jon Snow had been wounded by fire. To soothe his hand, what does he use?

He dismounted, shivering, his burned hand aching. A bank of melting snow lay under the trees, bright in the moonlight, water trickling off to form small shallow pools. Jon squatted and brought his hands together, cupping the runoff between his fingers. The snowmelt was icy cold. He drank, and splashed some on his face, until his cheeks tingled. His fingers were throbbing worse than they had in days, and his head was pounding too.

(AGoT, Chap. 70, Jon IX)

Of course, Jon Snow's attempt to desert and join Robb Stark is defeated when his Night's Watch brothers apprehend him on his ride south, remind him of his vows and return him to Castle Black. Moqorro, by contrast, encourages Victarion's traitorous efforts against Euron. The dusky woman, given to Victarion by Euron, expresses loathing for Moqorro at first sight. After Moqorro seems to cure Victarion's wounded hand, Victarion orders Euron's assigned maester - whose efforts at healing had been ineffective - to be thrown into the sea.

13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I've wondered at this stage if the whole enterprise for reaching Dany via a storm and the IB was all about retrieving that Hellhorn. After all Benerro had to have some reason for wanting Moqorro to encounter Victarion on his way to Dany. He sent him on the stinky steward which would be broken in the storm and where Vic would come across him for a reason. Otherwise why not just send him on another boat which would get him directly to Dany. He can assist her either way.

This also strikes me as a really significant observation. This is sort of free association and I haven't thought it through so it might not add up to much.

I don't know about the horn as the reason for putting Moqorro on that ship, but your observation made me think about all the people told to board that ship for reasons that don't seem logical - the Widow of the Waterfront makes sure that Ser Jorah, Tyrion and Penny board that ship, even though its destination is not Meereen.

I was also still thinking about your fire wights / ice wights comparison and wondered whether the Widow of the Waterfront is part of that circle, along with Benerro. She has a dagger with runes, gloves (given by Ser Jorah) and a fan. Are these symbolic of things that Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart might have? Catelyn's hand is wounded by a special dagger when the catspaw attacks. Because of her hand injury, she might want to wear gloves (although I don't think she is ever described as wearing them). The Widow seems pleased with the gift of the gloves because they will cover her wrinkled skin and the fan might serve a similar purpose for her face. Catelyn's skin is shredded by her own nails as she tears at her face in her grief and agony during the red wedding attack. Gloves would also be useful for hiding the blood pooling in the extremities of an ice wight.

If we are supposed to compare the Widow of the Waterfront with Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart, and if the Widow puts Jorah, Penny and Tyrion (as well as Pretty Pig and Crunch) on the ill-fated ship that will deliver them to slavery, is there a parallel for Catelyn? She doesn't put her children on a ship, but her children and Jon Snow all end up scattering in various directions and enduring hardship and violence at every turn. Could the terrors endured by the Stark offspring be the parallel to the awful events experienced by Jorah, Penny and Tyrion? Balon and Euron also send out various Greyjoy family members, all of whom fall into pretty awful situations that were not intended or foreseen.

Just to make a token connection back to the original topic, the Victarion chapters frequently mention that Euron's gifts are poison. This is wordplay again, because "Gift" is the German word for poison. Will Victarion be smart enough to know when he is ingesting poison? Or will he cast away the poison and remain safe?

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Normal people die before they can fully activate the dragonbinder horn, Moqorro can blow it all the way.  And then It will happen,.... whatever "It" is.   So... that means... Euron knew he was sending the fire church something they could and would use.  Euron knew they would spidey-sense the horn in route and inevitably intercept it and claim it.   Because... important.  Dragon theft, and chasing after it, is one of the only ways i can imagine Stormborn leaving the East.   You know there's a huge dusky woman twist coming too.

Brown Ben isn't a built up character,  so I haven't spent any time wishing a dragon upon him.  Maybe he's just a match stick Tyrion will light.  Plumm is the guy Tyrion observes to discover what a dragon responds to.  Tyrion will figure out to keep Ben's blood or scent on him after Ben is dead, and then the dragon responds to the dwarf!

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19 hours ago, SeanF said:

Melisandre's blood still flows, however.  Moreover, she still sleeps a little, even though she hopes that one day she can do completely without sleep, because her dreams trouble her.  And, whereas Beric finds it more and more difficult to remember the past, I don't think that's true of Melisandre.

IMHO, Melisandre has never died, as Beric did, but her magic is gradually stripping her of her humanity.  In that way, I think she's more like one of the Nazgul, than a wight.

How do we know her blood flows? All we know as far as I recall is that under the strain of seeking images in the flames some old sounding womb lining comes away. If you die at any point in your cycle there is always going to be some blood in there and at some points rather a lot.  

The second point is easily explained too. Beric is loosing himself due to having brought back so many times. If Mel is a fire wight then she has been brought back just the once. Each time Beric is resurrected he looses part of himself. A person who has only been brought back once hasn't undergone that same process. 

The sleep thing I already covered. I think it's pretty murky as to whether Beric truly never slept as Arya is a child, has to sleep at some point herself and does in fact say he closes his eyes, but that he seems to never truly be asleep. That is pretty vague. Mel calls what she does sleep but it is very clear she isn't clocking up 8 hours a night. Nor are LSH or Moqorro. 

One of the biggest things for me which hints towards these two both being wights is the fact that at no point has GRRM hinted of any other method for prolonging life which could apply to either of them. Yet he has given both characteristics in line with those he has given fire wights.  As well as making both members of the cult where the only fire kiss spell we see on page originated from. R'hllorism. 

The only other hints towards fire kiss resurrection are in the histories. the Woods Witch who kisses the heads of her husbands vanquished enemies being one example. 

Throughout the myths and legends of ASOIAF as given to us in both the main text and the additional texts there are vague references to people living hundreds of years. And that implies that there are methods for doing so. The only current examples we have on the page though are the fire wights and coldhands. Mel most certainly isn't alive by whatever method he is though. He's not described as emanating heat as Mel is, nor do we get any hint at all that he has a fire inside him like we do for both Mel and Beric/LSH. 

 

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Beric is a very distant figure, though, considering he was brought back from death six times. He would not be representative of all such creatures. Mel, on the other hand, gives no sign that she has died and come back before, gives no signs of memory loss in her POV, etc.

In fact, the very fact that George has said Cat would never come back as a POV precisely because she is undead and not (completely) human anymore makes it exceedingly unlikely that we are supposed to believe that Mel has 'lived through death', too. Also, the fact that she is still very much afraid of death, always looking to dangers for herself first in the fire, constantly praying that the sun is going to rise the next day, etc. makes it very unlikely she has experienced death before. After all, if you can be resurrected then death really isn't the end, isn't it?

I'd say Melisandre has grown beyond the need to eat is because she is literally fueled by fire. Whoever made her into a red priestess at whatever temple she was originally taught seems to have literally imbued her with magical fire. And that seems to be, I'd think, such a huge amount of energy that she was able to live longer than her natural lifespan despite the fact that fire consumes.

I very much doubt that the people who are resurrected by fire are going to last all that long in that state. In that sense, they are not comparable to Melisandre. Catelyn and Beric would have never lasted as long as she or as the wights of the Others (or Coldhands, for that matter).

I'm certainly on board with the idea that Moqorro is at least as special as Melisandre. His prophetic talents are very scary. I mean, how can he direct Victarion to those ships? All he could have seen in the fire would be the sea and the ships, no way to figure out where exactly such a vision would take place...

Also, we should not pretend we can figure out what exactly very skilled sorcerers like Mel or Moqorro can do. They certainly could have the ability to survive under conditions normal people could not. They don't have to be resurrected people for that.

If Melisandre truly were as dead as George describes Beric and Catelyn above, then she wouldn't really be able to eat and drink and digest, etc. Granted, technically a glamor could hide that she is actually looking more like these two than a living woman, but there is also the fact that her reproductive organs still work, at least on a magical level.

Also, I'm not really sure whether George's own descriptions in that interview are fully in accord with the stories given. After all, if those people are literally dead and fueled by something that has pretty much nothing to do with their bodies then how can Beric die second to sixth time? You can only get killed if you are alive, right? If he was a proper zombie then he may have been injured during his 'later deaths' but he would not have actually died and Thoros would not have been forced to go through the ritual again to bring him back.

I think we actually do know what Moqorro's great mission as per Benerro is. It is to thwart Euron's plans. Remember Moqorro telling Tyrion about the great threat to Dany that can only be Euron before he leaves the ship? The idea is that Moqorro allows himself to be found by Victarion to be able to thwart Euron's plans and to enable the Ironborn to arrive at the right time to help defeat Dany's enemies. Without Moqorro Victarion would have either arrived too early or too late.

Mortal man is pretty dubious. Could also be a Valyrian dragonlord. Were those people 'mortal men'? Who knows? They themselves likely thought they were better than mortal men.

However, I'm literally at a loss what the plot point of Dragonbinder is after Moqorro ensured that neither Euron nor Victarion would not use the horn. He actually has two potential dragonriders in Meereen - Brown Ben and Tyrion - who should not exactly need the help of the horn to claim a dragon.

More so, considering the horn was likely originally in the possession of the Qartheen warlocks I very much doubt it is truly an artifact that helps a Valyrian dragonlord to master his own dragons. The Targaryens never needed such horns while they were ruling Westeros. Pyat Pree did not want to help Dany. He wanted to destroy her and kill or steal her dragons. In that sense I doubt that the horn is likely going to have a positive effect on the dragons.

And I think the hellhorn quote from FaB is a strong indication that Dragonbinder is not actually going to have a positive effect on anything:

This is clearly a tease. Nobody should expect something good to come from those horns after he or she has read that.

See above ;-).

Not sure, though, that Jon has anything of Rhaegar in his looks aside from, perhaps, very subtle things people would only realize if they had known him very well. Or other Targaryens, for that matter, since they should all look very much alike due to the incest. But even Aemon would likely only look for such things in Jon if he had any reason to believe he was a relation. If he had no reason to think that he would perhaps notice some similarities but see them as accidental. 

Hm, but how could Ben steal Viserion if he is already bonded with Tyrion? If the dragons get riders in Slaver's Bay then one of them has to die for another rider to claim the dragon.

I think there is a lot of narrative potential in Ben actually becoming a dragonrider. For one, unlike Tyrion, Dany is going to mistrust him from the start considering his earlier betrayal. They might be able to overcome that rift for the time being because it is convenient that Rhaegal has a rider and they are thus able to (eventually) use that dragon in war (which they could not while the dragon was riderless) but we can be very certain that riding a dragon is going to cause Ben to dream grand dreams of his own.

And if his relationship with Dany had really deteriorated very much by the time they reached Westeros then him defecting to Aegon or Euron would actually be a very plausible scenario. Basically a variation of the story of the Two Betrayers.

Tyrion himself is not likely to play such a role early in his time with Dany.

I've already addressed the first point with SeanF but basically there is as we know a huge difference between being resurrected once and 6 times. Mel if she has been brought back once would not suffer the same way Beric did. That is established in the text. He tells us each time I loose a bit more of myself. 

I'll acknowledge that GRRM has his own rules about POV's and that his saying that re LSH may imply Mel isn't But it certainly isn't enough for me to discount the evidence in the text. 

She can only come back again IF a person who knows that magic and is motivated to give her the kiss is around when and where she dies. I don't see that being her current situation. Also we have no idea if the Red Priests as a whole know it is possible to come back more than once. Thoros isn't following standard procedure he's winging it. 

I think we can pretty much guarantee Mel was bought by the red temple of Volantis. GRRM goes to a lot of trouble in Tyrion's chapters to explain their tattoo system and describe the types of slaves at the red temple and the tattoos two of the three have.Flames wreathing their heads like Benerro & Moqorro have. And handsof flame..  He also describes the tattoos  of Volanteen whores. Tears. Mel Tells us "Her tears were of flame." she's been a sacred temple prostitute in Volantis at some point.  That glamour is hiding a lot of stuff.

Who needs to digest when you have a magic flame inside you to burn up whatever you swallow. 

I think Moqorro isn't going on just his own visions. I think that at least the initial information is a collation of the dozens of Red Priests in the Red Temple at Volantis. Benerro would have had every one capable of flame reading scouring the fires for visions pertaining to Danaerys for as long as she has been known to have Dragons. He's arrived at the point we meet him with the benefit of whatever they have collectively worked out. As well as whatever he has discerned himself since leaving the temple. 

Yes, undoubtedly he is there to prevent Euron from harming Dany. And to ensure the ships arrive at the right time. etc. 

Do you honestly think dragonlords are different to other men? in any way other than the magical bond? I mean They clearly have that going on as surely as the skinchangers have something funky in their blood. But I don't doubt that if Dany or Jon  blew that horn they'd burn from the inside out just like the thrall.  Nope to my mind it is really clear. "I am Dragon Binder...No mortal man shall blow me and live. Blood for fire fire for blood." (Have gone from memory but am pretty sure that is the right wording. ) it has instructions on the side. Blood for fire = give up blood; life, in exchange for fire; the flame inside wights. Receive fire for blood. Fire fuels them instead of blood.  Even a person who believes he is more than a man will die if he say drinks wildfire.....or blows that horn.  It wouldn't take long to figure out that no amount of hubris would save you from that. 

This isn't random things the Dragonlords may have thought about themselves it is narrative fiction and every word is on that page for a reason. GRRM left us a riddle to work out. 

I am in total agreement re the effect of the horn and the reasons people are after it etc. And thank you so much for providing that quote. Did you go look it up for me by hand? If so thank you very much. Or have you got F&B search formatted somehow? It really is a PITA that it isn't up on search of yet. 

To my mind that little nugget sounds as though those hellhorns are nothing good. I've been trying to work out what they are for 

From that quote I'd assume the primary purpose is to strike fear into the hearts of the enemy. After all that is the effect given in the quote. It sends a shiver down your spine. As well as horns, drums etc being used in our own world for that precise purpose. However horns are also used to give instruction on the battle field. 

  But we also have to look at it in the context of the quote. Here Martin is using them as a harbinger for chaos, devastation and war which come following Aemon's death, as the entire dynasty is almost brought to it's knees through disagreement, cultural clashes between Targaryens and Andals over succession rights, greed, ambition, and betrayals. So equally we need to think it terms of what we are being told our Hellhorn might cause/be a forewarning for. 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

His Grace grieved for Prince Aemon until the end of his days, but the Old King never dreamed that Aemon’s death in 92 AC would be like the hellhorns of Valyrian legend, bringing death and destruction down on all those who heard their sound.

Death and destruction raining down from the skies. Imagine hearing them and seeing the dragons coming - their wings blocking out the sun. Fucking hell. So the horn is to be blown during attack. Or there are different types of horns. But I don't think so. GRRM deliberately called both Hellhorns. And this is such a throw away line that many readers would not register as anything but a spine tingling analogy for the chaos caused by Aemon's death. So I think it has to be a clue to the horn.  It could be a means to use riderless dragons in war?  If your House has twenty dragons but only 5 dragonriders you would be pissed off at having to leave 15 dragons at home when you want to go take over some lands and enslave the people. Wouldn't you try to work out a magical way to use all your dragons? George has given us a story in which a house was faced with the dilemma of how to utilise dragons who had no riders and we saw how that worked out for them.  And most certainly you are right and Pryat Pree was after stealing or destroying the dragons. Euron took it and no doubt Pree gave over the secrets that he knew as to it's purpose. But it seems either withheld how to use it or did not himself know. I think Moqorro though does know how to use it and is capable of blowing it too. But that doesn't mean it will all go to plan. I am stumped though Mereen is an area ive never spent any real time analysing so I am a lot less certain of what will happen there than I am in the north.  Magic is one of my main areas of interest in the stories so this is why I've done so much research into the horn and the wights. but Dany and Mereen have never interested me as much as the Starks and the north.  I am finding though with so many of the interim books and novella's focussing on the Targaryens that my interest has improved in regards them and the Dragons. Perhaps it is time to transfer that over to her and her side of the story. I must admit most of my time discussing her online has been spent berating people for being butt hurt over her shagging Daario. 

 

Yes I think it will turn out to be subtle things. The shape of his eyes. The way his ears sit, or the profile view of his nose. Nothing that anyone would see immediately but subtle things that one might work out if say they were your own families traits. Things that once it is known those few left who did know Rhaegar/the Targs well will be able to see. I do think his eyes are purple. Like Egg's so dark they appear black. 

Good point I had totally forgotten that aspect of dragonriding. See this is why putting thoughts straight onto the page doesn't always work! 

Yes though I agree totally Ben is gonna get big ideas if/when he gets a dragon. And he's very likely to defect and cause the dance. I mean the Toland girl dreams of dragons dancing it is an analogy sure. Green/Dragon dreams always are but I feel we totally need actual dragon to dragon combat. 

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9 hours ago, Seams said:

This fire wight stuff sounds right to me, and helps me to make a connection between Victarion and Jon Snow and some other potential parallels.

When the wight attacked at Castle Black, Jon Snow fought off Othor with burning drapes. He badly burned his hand:

... the cracked red skin oozed fluid, and fearsome blood blisters rose between his fingers, big as roaches. 'The maester says I'll have scars, but otherwise the hand should be as good as it was before.'

(AGoT, Chap. 60, Jon VIII)

This seems similar to Victarions hand injury, incurred in combat with Ser Talbert Serry, heir of Southsfield:

He caught Serry's blade in an iron fist. Lobstered steel crunched and a stab of pain made him grunt, yet Victarion held on. 'I am quick as well, boy,' he said as he ripped the sword from the knight's hand and flung it into the sea.

Ser Talbert's eyes went wide. 'My sword ...'

Victarion caught the lad about the throat with a bloody fist. 'Go and get it,' he said, forcing him backwards over the side into the bloodstained waters.

(AFfC, Chap. 29, The Reaver)

Is that similar to Jon Snow's struggle with Othor in Mormont's chambers? The outcome for Victarion's hand is similar:

[Maester Kerwin] "laid the edge of the dagger across the captain's palm and slashed. The pus that burst forth was thick and yellow as sour milk. ... Maester Kerwin pressed the dagger deep. This time it hurt, but blood welled up as well as pus, blood so dark that it looked black in the lantern light.

(ADwD, Chap. 56, The Iron Suitor)

He yanked off his glove and shoved his bad hand at the priest's face. ... 'He had a rose on his shield, the man who gave this to me. I scratched my hand on a thorn.'

'Even the smallest scratch can prove mortal, lord Captain, but if you will allow me, I will heal this.  I will need a blade. Silver would be best, but iron will serve. A brazier as well. I must needs light a fire. There will be pain. Terrible pain, such as you have never known. But when we are done, your hand will be returned to you.'

... Come sunset, as the sea turned black as ink and the swollen sun tinted the sky a deep and bloody red, Victarion came back on deck. He was naked from the waist up, his left arm blood to the elbow. As his crew gathered, whispering and trading glances, he raised a charred and blackened hand. Wisps of dark smoke rose from his fingers as he pointed at the maester.

(ADwD, Chap. 56, The Iron Suitor)

I'm noticing references to roses in both the Jon Snow / Othor chapter: Jon sees Alliser Thorne right after returning to Castle Black with the Night's Watch brothers retrieving the wighted bodies of Othor and Jafer Flowers. So there is thorn and flower, like the rose and thorn that caused Victarion's wound. The word "rose" also appears in various connotations in both chapters.

There is also wordplay around the word "well." (I think "well" and "Wall" are opposites in ASOIAF, but "well" has a number of connotations.) Lobster imagery in Victarion's arc is probably linked to the crab claws eaten at the Castle Black feast in AGoT. The combination of rose and lobstered gauntlet imagery suggests a connection to the AFfC prologue, where Pate takes a valuable key from a gauntlet in the hope of securing funds to pay for the deflowering (and lifelong love, he hopes) of the young prostitute named Rosey.

(Not to get too far off on a tangent, but this re-read also helped me to connect Victarion and Moqorro to Mark Mullendore and his monkey. Mullendore loses part of his arm to a battle wound. He also loses his black and white monkey but Margaery's cousin, Megga Tyrell, loves him and wants to find him a new monkey. The Tyrell sigil, of course, is a rose; perhaps tying Mullendore to the rose motif mentioned in Jon and Victarion's chapters. Moqorro's black skin and white hair may be similar to Mullendore's black and white monkey. The monkeys climb around on the masts and spars of Victarion's fleet, and Moqorro was clinging to a spar when he was pulled from the water. The chapter where Moqorro is presented to Victarion includes a lot of description of the monkeys that have infested Victarion's ships after a provisioning stop at the Isle of Cedars. And I suspect the "cedars" name is a "seeders" pun on the "We Do Not Sow" words of House Greyjoy.)

Moqorro used fire to heal Victarion's hand, wounded by a thorn, but Jon Snow had been wounded by fire. To soothe his hand, what does he use?

He dismounted, shivering, his burned hand aching. A bank of melting snow lay under the trees, bright in the moonlight, water trickling off to form small shallow pools. Jon squatted and brought his hands together, cupping the runoff between his fingers. The snowmelt was icy cold. He drank, and splashed some on his face, until his cheeks tingled. His fingers were throbbing worse than they had in days, and his head was pounding too.

(AGoT, Chap. 70, Jon IX)

Of course, Jon Snow's attempt to desert and join Robb Stark is defeated when his Night's Watch brothers apprehend him on his ride south, remind him of his vows and return him to Castle Black. Moqorro, by contrast, encourages Victarion's traitorous efforts against Euron. The dusky woman, given to Victarion by Euron, expresses loathing for Moqorro at first sight. After Moqorro seems to cure Victarion's wounded hand, Victarion orders Euron's assigned maester - whose efforts at healing had been ineffective - to be thrown into the sea.

This also strikes me as a really significant observation. This is sort of free association and I haven't thought it through so it might not add up to much.

I don't know about the horn as the reason for putting Moqorro on that ship, but your observation made me think about all the people told to board that ship for reasons that don't seem logical - the Widow of the Waterfront makes sure that Ser Jorah, Tyrion and Penny board that ship, even though its destination is not Meereen.

I was also still thinking about your fire wights / ice wights comparison and wondered whether the Widow of the Waterfront is part of that circle, along with Benerro. She has a dagger with runes, gloves (given by Ser Jorah) and a fan. Are these symbolic of things that Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart might have? Catelyn's hand is wounded by a special dagger when the catspaw attacks. Because of her hand injury, she might want to wear gloves (although I don't think she is ever described as wearing them). The Widow seems pleased with the gift of the gloves because they will cover her wrinkled skin and the fan might serve a similar purpose for her face. Catelyn's skin is shredded by her own nails as she tears at her face in her grief and agony during the red wedding attack. Gloves would also be useful for hiding the blood pooling in the extremities of an ice wight.

If we are supposed to compare the Widow of the Waterfront with Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart, and if the Widow puts Jorah, Penny and Tyrion (as well as Pretty Pig and Crunch) on the ill-fated ship that will deliver them to slavery, is there a parallel for Catelyn? She doesn't put her children on a ship, but her children and Jon Snow all end up scattering in various directions and enduring hardship and violence at every turn. Could the terrors endured by the Stark offspring be the parallel to the awful events experienced by Jorah, Penny and Tyrion? Balon and Euron also send out various Greyjoy family members, all of whom fall into pretty awful situations that were not intended or foreseen.

Just to make a token connection back to the original topic, the Victarion chapters frequently mention that Euron's gifts are poison. This is wordplay again, because "Gift" is the German word for poison. Will Victarion be smart enough to know when he is ingesting poison? Or will he cast away the poison and remain safe?

As always Seams, very intriguing observations. 

So do you think Victarion will fall prey to Tyrion's mushrooms? And what do you think the purpose of these parallels between Vic and Jon might be? 

 

 

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4 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Normal people die before they can fully activate the dragonbinder horn, Moqorro can blow it all the way.  And then It will happen,.... whatever "It" is.   So... that means... Euron knew he was sending the fire church something they could and would use.  Euron knew they would spidey-sense the horn in route and inevitably intercept it and claim it.   Because... important.  Dragon theft, and chasing after it, is one of the only ways i can imagine Stormborn leaving the East.   You know there's a huge dusky woman twist coming too.

Brown Ben isn't a built up character,  so I haven't spent any time wishing a dragon upon him.  Maybe he's just a match stick Tyrion will light.  Plumm is the guy Tyrion observes to discover what a dragon responds to.  Tyrion will figure out to keep Ben's blood or scent on him after Ben is dead, and then the dragon responds to the dwarf!

What do you think the twist will be with the Dusky woman?

I'm not sure Euron is aware the Rh'llorists will send a priest who will intercept his horn. But that is certainly what has happened. Both literally and figuratively. Because he wasn't just sending the horn out there he's sending his desire to fuck Dany out there too. Sending Vic to bring her to him.  Moqoro wants to prevent a union between Euron & Dany clearly! 

 

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On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

Viserion flew back to the city. Doubt he is going to get injured. He could, of course, come back later,

or get injured by someone in the city (as they tried with Rhaegal), or get injured by his brother if the later gets crazy upon hearing the horn. The bloodied cyvasse dragon *might* point to that direction.

On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

but Tyrion is *never* going to try to mount a dragon unless he has reason to believe he can do the trick. He must know about the Sowing and the morons who tried to mount Silverwing after Second Tumbleton.

and he must know about Nettles too. He has read Munkun after all

On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

What do you think could convince Tyrion that he has it in him to become a dragonrider? He believes you need the blood of dragonlords to do that. In fact, if he is not Aerys II's son or does not believe that this is the case he is more likely to push Brown Ben to claim a dragon because he knows he has the potential to it. He is descended from both Aegon IV and Princess Elaena, giving him more than just a drop of Targaryen blood.

Why would Tyrion empower someone he'd rather prefer to have in his pocket?

On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

Jon is not going to claim a dragon that wasn't ridden before. That would be a waste of potential.

Very likely someone will ride Rhaegal before, but maybe not. One of the scenarios in my mind is that Dany will offer Rhaegal to Aegon so he can prove his legitimacy and... Oh!

On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

And there will come a time - sooner rather than later - when it will be impossible for Dany to drag an unclaimed dragon with her even if he was willing to do that (which I honestly doubt he would, since dragons seem to be stationary creatures - they do not migrate of their own free will).

Drogon was seen as far as Chroyane in the Rhoyne, so they might move

On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

Drogon was starting to prey on children, and chances are pretty high that life around a growing half-wild dragon is simply not going to be safe.

Well, it might happen

On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is a reason why George has introduced various concepts - Dragonbinder, people with Targaryen blood - as potential means to give the two other dragons riders.

 

Ah... Dragonbinder... Who knows what it does!

 

On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

If it is not Victarion right now then it must be Ben. He is the only one aside from Tyrion that could do it. And there is a reason why Brown Ben is descended from two Targaryens. In fact, the only reason he has that illustrious ancestry is likely that he can become a dragonrider. And if he does he'll put Ulf and Hugh to shame. Up until now the man was cautious and smart but like an average guy winning ten or twenty million in the lottery he will change considerably if he is suddenly a dragonrider.

The thing with Ben is not his blood, is his characterization as a petty, cautious guy. It is not the characterization you would expect of a would-be dragon-rider.  I'd rather see Euron riding Rhaegal than Ben.

My opinion is that Ben will help Tyrion to ride Viserion and even that it will take a while until Viserion accepts Tyrion.

On 4/30/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

From Ben the dragon could then later pass on to Euron or Aegon or whoever else he is supposed to be ridden by before Jon gets him. Tyrion and Dany should keep their dragons until either of them dies - which might not happen at all, or at least only at the very end of the series (when the dragons might die, too).

I don't think that Aegon will ever ride a dragon, but he might try. Euron on the other hand.... I'm actually quite convinced that it is not Rhaegal what he will ride, but something else.

On the other hand...

On 5/1/2019 at 4:18 AM, Lord Varys said:

However, the truly vexing question is what the plot purpose of the horn is if Ben and Tyrion can claim a dragon anyway. If no dragon is going to be stolen what the hell does the thing do in the story?

Indeed.  Dragonbinder should affect the dragons in some capacity. In fact I'm 50/50 split about what would happen. Will be Rhaegal stolen by Euron? Or be ridden by Moqorro or Victarion? (unlikely). We need to wait, hopefully not for much longer.

On 5/1/2019 at 4:18 AM, Lord Varys said:

The idea that the Cannibal is still lying dormant beneath the Dragonmount somewhere was, in my opinion, pretty much tossed out by FaB since the dragon is clearly still around during the Regency era and there are more than enough candidates around to claim him in 136-153 AC - Baela, Viserys, and especially Aemond's son. And if he were to finally get a rider he could also die in battle like the other Targaryen dragons. The same goes for Silverwing as well, of course.

The idea that Cannibal is the "grey stone beast" has appeal. But Silverwing should be "sleeping"  closer to Euron operating area and importantly we have heard of Silverwing twice in the main series, prompting the casual reader, well, to read more. 

Anyway, I don't think that "the grey stone beast" is a living dragon but something else. Maybe a petrified one raised by sorcery. The "shadow flame" is  something to think about.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not sure Euron is aware the Rh'llorists will send a priest who will intercept his horn. But that is certainly what has happened

Well you guys were saying you didn't see a way for the horn to be used successfully as part of the future you're forecasting.

The most sure thing I've got is Euron made certain Victarion won't come back as a dragon rider, because then Euron gets burned by a vengeful Vic who's no longer under anyone's thumb.  So Euron made that impossible.  Meaning he gave Vic an unloaded gun.  The dragonbinder can't be sounded by anyone in Vic's camp (Mere Humans).   

So it's a loyalty test.  If Vic tries to grab a dragon, he doesn't come back.  If he plays it Euron's way and doesn't revolt, he prooves himself to Euron by resisting the ultimate temptation.   And Dan gets her fleet and is grateful, and at least has to set foot in Euron's snare upon arriving in the West.

Euron is a Lara Croft tomb raiding seeker of magic artifacts.  So he knows the market for that horn.  He knows how sought after it is by those few beings capable of using it, now that dragons have returned and the only dragonlord is a newbie ripe to be taken advantage of.  He knows their fire scrying magic radar will ping it, sense its magic potency like a beacon from leagues away, locate it and track its movement like a UPS package upon the horn's entry into their radar range / zone of influence.  Euron knows that by sending the horn there he's essentially giving it to them, on a high profile floatilla you can't miss , captained by a doofus unaware of lurking magical opposition.  It's a gift to the fire church who can be counted upon to use it.

At which point the dragons are bound to the Eastern church and remain in the East.  Solving Westeros' (Euron's) dragon problem.  (Only dragons can do in his fleet, probably, since he makes bozoes out of other navies for breakfast.)   

As for the role of the dusky woman... i don't know, obviously.  But I imagine things, such as she's supposed to be the Ironborn version of a Shireen sacrifice that takes things too far, breaks Euron's heart (because it's predictable he'll come to sympathize with her during the voyage and won't want to take his revenge if her death is required, yet he must seek his revenge, so it kinda breaks him by design?)

And then she's laden with some curse that reeeeely makes Vic regret sacrificing her.   Or she's a warlock who knows how to peel off one of the bound dragons for Euron, and flies away with it to Moqorro's dismay.

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9 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Normal people die before they can fully activate the dragonbinder horn, Moqorro can blow it all the way.  And then It will happen,.... whatever "It" is.   So... that means... Euron knew he was sending the fire church something they could and would use.  Euron knew they would spidey-sense the horn in route and inevitably intercept it and claim it.   Because... important.  Dragon theft, and chasing after it, is one of the only ways i can imagine Stormborn leaving the East.   You know there's a huge dusky woman twist coming too.

Marwyn the Mage also has a reason to search for Dany. He will give her the real reason why she has to come to Westeros.

Euron doesn't seem to have any prophetic talents. After all, everything we know about his recent actions implies he actually intended to go to Meereen himself and did not foresee that the Reader would prevent him from doing so. After all, he told Aeron that they would go to Dany in 'The Forsaken'.

9 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Brown Ben isn't a built up character,  so I haven't spent any time wishing a dragon upon him.  Maybe he's just a match stick Tyrion will light.  Plumm is the guy Tyrion observes to discover what a dragon responds to.  Tyrion will figure out to keep Ben's blood or scent on him after Ben is dead, and then the dragon responds to the dwarf!

If dragons could be fooled that easily a lot of non-Targaryen/dragonlord descendants would have ridden dragons in the past.

Brown Ben is a character since ASoS and he got considerable prominence in ADwD. And unlike any of the characters around Dany he is a confirmed Targaryen who actually is liked by the dragons.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I've already addressed the first point with SeanF but basically there is as we know a huge difference between being resurrected once and 6 times. Mel if she has been brought back once would not suffer the same way Beric did. That is established in the text. He tells us each time I loose a bit more of myself. 

But Cat also lost a lot of herself and she was only resurrected once. Granted, she was dead much longer than Beric, but still... But what sets Mel completely apart from the others is the fact that she is literally full of fire emanating heat to the degree that snow is melting around her. Neither Cat nor Beric ever show any such features, and I doubt many red priests can contain fire magic to such a degree. Moqorro may be special in a similar way, but here things are less clear.

I expect that not every person can take on as much fire as Melisandre, hence the high likelihood that she is the daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar. As a Volantene Moqorro could also have more than just a drop of dragonlord blood.

The bottom line is that those fire wights are not sorcerers while Melisandre and Moqorro clearly are.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

She can only come back again IF a person who knows that magic and is motivated to give her the kiss is around when and where she dies. I don't see that being her current situation. Also we have no idea if the Red Priests as a whole know it is possible to come back more than once. Thoros isn't following standard procedure he's winging it. 

No, actually, she can and will come back if R'hllor calls her back. She sees the entire world through the lenses of her religion and there R'hllor decides everything. If he brought her back again and she is his instrument he will continue to do so until her work is done. And that would greatly reduce her fear of death, possibly even make it pointless to look for a danger to herself in the fire.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think we can pretty much guarantee Mel was bought by the red temple of Volantis. GRRM goes to a lot of trouble in Tyrion's chapters to explain their tattoo system and describe the types of slaves at the red temple and the tattoos two of the three have.Flames wreathing their heads like Benerro & Moqorro have. And handsof flame..  He also describes the tattoos  of Volanteen whores. Tears. Mel Tells us "Her tears were of flame." she's been a sacred temple prostitute in Volantis at some point.  That glamour is hiding a lot of stuff.

I think that's too far a stretch. I'm not saying Melisandre did not spend some time at the red temple in Volantis, but at this point there is no real evidence for that, and her own take on the prophecy strongly implies she is rather far away from Benerro/Moqorro's take on the prophecy. After all, there is considerable difference between Benerro's sermon about Azor Ahai and Melisandre's talk about him.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Who needs to digest when you have a magic flame inside you to burn up whatever you swallow.

Precisely. So how could the Strangler actually harm Melisandre? She doesn't have to be dead to be immune to that. Not to mention that her clear foreknowledge of that assassination attempt could have allowed her to take an antidote before she drank the poison. There might be rather mundane ways to immunize oneself against the Strangler - although such things would be rarely used considering that one has to know that the Strangler is going to be used to kill you. Once this poison has been administered it is too late.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think Moqorro isn't going on just his own visions. I think that at least the initial information is a collation of the dozens of Red Priests in the Red Temple at Volantis. Benerro would have had every one capable of flame reading scouring the fires for visions pertaining to Danaerys for as long as she has been known to have Dragons. He's arrived at the point we meet him with the benefit of whatever they have collectively worked out. As well as whatever he has discerned himself since leaving the temple. 

Sure, and there would also be a reason why Moqorro was sent and not some other priest. But I was more wondering about the mechanics of finding ships in the middle of the sea and then directing another ship to show up at the correct time. That's very precise prophesying. In fact, if you think about in detail almost insanely precise.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Do you honestly think dragonlords are different to other men? in any way other than the magical bond? I mean They clearly have that going on as surely as the skinchangers have something funky in their blood. But I don't doubt that if Dany or Jon  blew that horn they'd burn from the inside out just like the thrall.  Nope to my mind it is really clear. "I am Dragon Binder...No mortal man shall blow me and live. Blood for fire fire for blood." (Have gone from memory but am pretty sure that is the right wording. ) it has instructions on the side. Blood for fire = give up blood; life, in exchange for fire; the flame inside wights. Receive fire for blood. Fire fuels them instead of blood.  Even a person who believes he is more than a man will die if he say drinks wildfire.....or blows that horn.  It wouldn't take long to figure out that no amount of hubris would save you from that. 

Oh, they don't have to be *that different*, just a little bit. After all, just because it reads 'nor mortal man, etc.' doesn't mean this is to be understood literally.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I am in total agreement re the effect of the horn and the reasons people are after it etc. And thank you so much for providing that quote. Did you go look it up for me by hand? If so thank you very much. Or have you got F&B search formatted somehow? It really is a PITA that it isn't up on search of yet. 

Oh, no, I remembered where it was. I've read FaB a couple of time and I have a reasonably good memory for such things.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

From that quote I'd assume the primary purpose is to strike fear into the hearts of the enemy. After all that is the effect given in the quote. It sends a shiver down your spine. As well as horns, drums etc being used in our own world for that precise purpose. However horns are also used to give instruction on the battle field.

There is Dany's own memory/belief that the dragonlords of olds actually supposedly used magical horns and spells to control their dragons. But since we know that the Westerosi Targaryens got along very fine with their dragons without using horns or spells I expect that horns like Dragonbinder either play a crucial role in establishing a link between a dragon and a human (bloodline) (i.e. creating a dragonlord (bloodline) from a non-dragonlord (bloodline)) or as a means to steal a dragon from the rider who has bonded with/mounted a particular dragon.

Considering the fact that there was this constant infighting among the dragonlord families I expect the latter idea is more likely. 

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

But we also have to look at it in the context of the quote. Here Martin is using them as a harbinger for chaos, devastation and war which come following Aemon's death, as the entire dynasty is almost brought to it's knees through disagreement, cultural clashes between Targaryens and Andals over succession rights, greed, ambition, and betrayals. So equally we need to think it terms of what we are being told our Hellhorn might cause/be a forewarning for. 

Well, actually Jaehaerys I seems to have had no issues with Andal succession customs.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Death and destruction raining down from the skies. Imagine hearing them and seeing the dragons coming - their wings blocking out the sun. Fucking hell. So the horn is to be blown during attack. Or there are different types of horns. But I don't think so. GRRM deliberately called both Hellhorns. And this is such a throw away line that many readers would not register as anything but a spine tingling analogy for the chaos caused by Aemon's death. So I think it has to be a clue to the horn.  It could be a means to use riderless dragons in war?  If your House has twenty dragons but only 5 dragonriders you would be pissed off at having to leave 15 dragons at home when you want to go take over some lands and enslave the people. Wouldn't you try to work out a magical way to use all your dragons? George has given us a story in which a house was faced with the dilemma of how to utilise dragons who had no riders and we saw how that worked out for them.  And most certainly you are right and Pryat Pree was after stealing or destroying the dragons. Euron took it and no doubt Pree gave over the secrets that he knew as to it's purpose. But it seems either withheld how to use it or did not himself know. I think Moqorro though does know how to use it and is capable of blowing it too. But that doesn't mean it will all go to plan. I am stumped though Mereen is an area ive never spent any real time analysing so I am a lot less certain of what will happen there than I am in the north.  Magic is one of my main areas of interest in the stories so this is why I've done so much research into the horn and the wights. but Dany and Mereen have never interested me as much as the Starks and the north.  I am finding though with so many of the interim books and novella's focussing on the Targaryens that my interest has improved in regards them and the Dragons. Perhaps it is time to transfer that over to her and her side of the story. I must admit most of my time discussing her online has been spent berating people for being butt hurt over her shagging Daario. 

It would be interesting to learn that riderless dragons can also be controlled in some fashion, but at this point there is no evidence that this ever happened. For instance, George could have implied that some of the dragons attacking the Rhoynar were riderless. But there are no such hints.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes I think it will turn out to be subtle things. The shape of his eyes. The way his ears sit, or the profile view of his nose. Nothing that anyone would see immediately but subtle things that one might work out if say they were your own families traits. Things that once it is known those few left who did know Rhaegar/the Targs well will be able to see. I do think his eyes are purple. Like Egg's so dark they appear black. 

Yeah, that's certainly possible. Although I'd find it rather cheesy if Jon suddenly looked Targaryen after everybody knew/believed he is descended from them. But then, George has used such descriptions before. Cat realizing Robb does look like his father in some regards despite the fact that his coloring is all Tully red, Areo realizing that all the Sand Snakes have their father's eyes, even those who have different eye colors, etc.

6 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes though I agree totally Ben is gonna get big ideas if/when he gets a dragon. And he's very likely to defect and cause the dance. I mean the Toland girl dreams of dragons dancing it is an analogy sure. Green/Dragon dreams always are but I feel we totally need actual dragon to dragon combat. 

Oh, I think the Dance will already be going when he defects, but keep in mind that a Two Betrayer-like scenario could have devastating effect if, say, Ben decided to torch Oldtown while Aegon's army came knocking (in a scenario where Oldtown ended up in team Dany due to machinations of Sam and Sarella).

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

or get injured by someone in the city (as they tried with Rhaegal), or get injured by his brother if the later gets crazy upon hearing the horn. The bloodied cyvasse dragon *might* point to that direction.

I'd see it more into the direction that this actually is a symbolic representation of 'fire and blood' - with the dragon piece standing for fire, and the blood for literal blood. And Tyrion's or Ben's blood is definitely going to be what's going to allow them to control fire.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

and he must know about Nettles too. He has read Munkun after all

I think FaB pretty much put all ideas to rest who saw something special in Nettles. She is as much a dragonseed or a descendant of (various) dragonseeds/Targaryens as are Ulf, Hugh, and Marilda's boys. The only special thing in her case is that she figured out how to approach Sheepstealer without angering/provoking the dragon. Tyrion certainly could use a similar method but convincing a dragon to suffer your presence around him isn't even remotely the same as permanently bonding with a dragon and becoming a dragonrider.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Why would Tyrion empower someone he'd rather prefer to have in his pocket?

Because they will need a third rider for Rhaegal? And perhaps because Ben is going to mount his dragon before Tyrion finds out that he can ride dragons, too?

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Very likely someone will ride Rhaegal before, but maybe not. One of the scenarios in my mind is that Dany will offer Rhaegal to Aegon so he can prove his legitimacy and... Oh!

Oh, if she were to do something as stupid as that Aegon would likely succeed. If he is a Blackfyre descendant his dragonlord blood might even be 'purer' than Dany's considering that there could have been more brother-sister marriages among Aegon's immediate Blackfyre ancestors than there were among Dany's ancestors from Daeron II to Aegon V. Not to mention that Aegon's mother - if she was Serra - would also have given the boy a strong additional dose of dragonlord blood. All those beautiful Lysene slaves with Valyrian features could likely claim dragons, too, just as the Old Blood of Volantis could.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Drogon was seen as far as Chroyane in the Rhoyne, so they might move

Oh, well, it is not clear that he was there - but if he were he may have been drawn to Aegon/Tyrion. Not to mention that he was essentially forced to leave Meereen and look for a new habitat.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

The thing with Ben is not his blood, is his characterization as a petty, cautious guy. It is not the characterization you would expect of a would-be dragon-rider.  I'd rather see Euron riding Rhaegal than Ben.

But what is when a dragonlore expert tells him that there is pretty much no chance that he is going to be rejected by the dragon? Tyrion's statement that Ben was popular with the dragons strongly implies that he already plans to make Ben a dragonrider.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

My opinion is that Ben will help Tyrion to ride Viserion and even that it will take a while until Viserion accepts Tyrion.

That would go against anything we know about claiming/mounting a dragon. You certainly can hang out a dragon as long as you want (or it suffers your presence) but the actual mounting process is you climbing on its back.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I don't think that Aegon will ever ride a dragon, but he might try. Euron on the other hand.... I'm actually quite convinced that it is not Rhaegal what he will ride, but something else.

Not sure Euron is even going to need a dragon to be particularly powerful. Sorcerer princes trumped mere dragonlords in Old Valyria, too. I could rather see him kill a dragon than ride one.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Indeed.  Dragonbinder should affect the dragons in some capacity. In fact I'm 50/50 split about what would happen. Will be Rhaegal stolen by Euron? Or be ridden by Moqorro or Victarion? (unlikely). We need to wait, hopefully not for much longer.

Euron cannot possibly steal a dragon. He is thousands of leagues away.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

The idea that Cannibal is the "grey stone beast" has appeal. But Silverwing should be "sleeping"  closer to Euron operating area and importantly we have heard of Silverwing twice in the main series, prompting the casual reader, well, to read more. 

Well, I think FaB II will give us death scenes for all the remaining dragons aside from Sheepstealer. And in case some reports about his carcass should reach court before 153 AC.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Anyway, I don't think that "the grey stone beast" is a living dragon but something else. Maybe a petrified one raised by sorcery. The "shadow flame" is  something to think about.

That's certainly possible. I'm reasonably certain that the stone beast is not connected to either Stannis or Aegon since they have their own prophecies/visions. And Euron simply is the great other player connected to Dany that should play a huge role.

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12 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

As always Seams, very intriguing observations. 

So do you think Victarion will fall prey to Tyrion's mushrooms? And what do you think the purpose of these parallels between Vic and Jon might be?

I don't think Tyrion's mushrooms will be the poison that affects Victarion; I think the poison of Euron's gifts are already slowly poisoning him, except maybe that poison is not a bad thing.

The other thing that occured to me is that Euron may have deliberately sent Victarion on this errand to find Dany not because he thought Victarion would bring him back a wife, but for some other reason. As I considered the parallel to Jon Snow, I couldn't help thinking that Jeor Mormont had sent Jon Snow on errands (such as the assignment to go ranging with Qhorin Halfhand or the Lord Commander's strange sense of urgency to get to The Fist during the full moon with the comet overhead). Then Mance sent Jon Snow on an assignment to go over the Wall and assist in the attack on Castle Black. Balon sending Victarion to Moat Cailin and Euron sending Victarion to the Shield Islands and then Meereen feels similar to the missions Jon undertook for Jeor and Mance. Both of those men were already "kings" - Jeor was Lord Commander and Mance was King Beyond the Wall. Balon and Euron were already kings of the Iron Islands.

Although Euron promised to make Victarion a king (of the Iron Islands) if he would help Euron to become king on the Iron Throne, I wonder whether Euron realized he simply could not undertake this mission himself. Some characters have a special ability to transcend barriers - go through doors, to put it more simply - and Victarion seems to be one of them. Theon and Jon Snow also have unique abilities in this area. In that link, I expand a little on the idea that shields are a type of door, so Victarion's success in conquering the Shield Islands and Jon Snow's decision to reopen the Shield Hall are similar examples of characters who are good at opening doors.

I didn't include it in that post in the link, but the frequent references to Euron's blue lips made me wonder about a parallel to Pyat Pree, the warlock who sent Dany into the House of the Undying, instructing her to keep going through doors. So that would add Dany to the parallel with Jon Snow and Victarion. Pyat Pree also gave Dany a glass of Shade of the Evening indigo liquid to drink. That could be the parallel poison. Indeed, Euron gave Victarion a glass of the same liquid, but Victarion spat it out after trying only one sip. But are there other poisons in the things Euron has given to Victarion?

This needs more analysis, but I'm thinking that Jeor Mormont doesn't give Jon any food or drink or medicine. Aemon and Clydas do give Jon mulled wine, however, and Dolorous Edd and Three-Fingered Hobb provide food for Jon. (Often Jon is described as barely touching his food, however, and almost never tasting it. If Westeros had a clinic for eating disorders, in fact, it could be named for the Stark family.) But what if the obsidian cache is the thing Mormont "gives" to Jon Snow that is parallel to the Shade of the Evening and the poison gifts that Euron gives to Victarion?

For some time, I have been thinking of the obsidian cache as an inoculation - it is the antibodies or it generates antibodies that Jon Snow will use to defeat the infectious disease that is the White Walkers. (This grew from the famous "miasma theory" posted years ago by Voice.) If that is true, then the "poisons" given by Euron to Victarion, as well as the intervention of Moqorro the fire wight, might be efforts that give Victarion a certain kind of immunity to evils or diseases he will encounter later in the books. Kind of like the mother of Achilles holding him over the fire to make him immortal or injecting someone with a weak form of a virus to provoke an immune response. This would also be consistent with the philosophy of the Drowned God, where men are drowned and revived to make them immune to death and drowning.

Am I able to bring this back to Tyrion and his poisonous mushrooms? I had thought maybe the poisoning of Nurse had to do with wordplay on "runes" and the way battles can be won with words instead of weapons. But maybe it's not about runes; the nurse symbolism remains within that health care motif and goes with the idea of antibodies and building up immunity. As Jon Snow digs for the obsidian cache, he wonders whether he is digging for treasure. In the tent of the noble Yezzan, Tyrion IS one of the so-called treasures. I know there are layers of symbolism around Yezzan and Nurse and Sweets that I have not sorted out but I like this idea of Tyrion as a sort of physician, although his approach to medical care seems to be similar to Arya's approach to prayers and mercy.

If gifts are poison but poison helps people to become immune to White Walkers (or the Pale Mare?), this helps to make better sense of the land south of the Wall known as The Gift. This land supports the Night's Watch (if they can find people to live there and farm it), thus strengthening the defenses of Westeros against the White Walkers. Settling the wildlings in The Gift is Dr. Jon Snow's good work to vaccinate Westeros by introducing a weakened strain of the illness into the body, promoting the development of antibodies.

Maybe.

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On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

But Cat also lost a lot of herself and she was only resurrected once. Granted, she was dead much longer than Beric, but still... But what sets Mel completely apart from the others is the fact that she is literally full of fire emanating heat to the degree that snow is melting around her. Neither Cat nor Beric ever show any such features, and I doubt many red priests can contain fire magic to such a degree. Moqorro may be special in a similar way, but here things are less clear.

I expect that not every person can take on as much fire as Melisandre, hence the high likelihood that she is the daughter of Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar. As a Volantene Moqorro could also have more than just a drop of dragonlord blood.

The bottom line is that those fire wights are not sorcerers while Melisandre and Moqorro clearly are.

I feel people are far too presumptuous about Cat.  Yes her being dead for longer could mean the loss of self has accelerated in her. But really we have no idea how lost or not Cat is in there. We have not seen anywhere near enough of LSH to judge that. LSH is ruthless. Mother Merciless. But Catelyn Tully was always a pretty ruthless practical and unforgiving person anyway. And no I am not a Cat hater; those guys are ridiculous. But her character is very pragmatic, her flaw is that she has a prideful side to her. She is fierce and prepared to do what ever it takes to win, or to defend her family, etc. The Tully words are a description of Cat. And I like these things about her they are good qualities which in another character would be praised not derided.  So I don't think what LSH is doing is that far out of character for her actually.  She comes across as someone who no longer gives a fuck. And it feels very much in line with what GRRM has said about resurrections. That there is a price to pay. She's lost compassion and a certain element of her rationalisation.  I'm reserving judgement on just how much she has changed until we see more of her. 

We have no hints that Beric nor Cat emanate heat. But  that doesn't mean they don't. In fact we kind of do have a clue for Beric in that his blood is combustible.  We were only aware that Mellisandre emanated heat upon her arrival in the extreme north where it became more noticeable and where we had a POV to tell us that was the case. The only POV we get on her prior to Jon is Davos and he doesn't get very near to her nor is he is an environment where that heat would be immediately noticeable.  

I do think though that if we are looking for a reason why Mellisandre and Moqorro are more special than standard fire wights such as Beric & Cat. Then the answer to that is simple! They are both magic users. 

And I'm not sure if I'm thinking of Moqorro or the Red Priest at Ilyrio's manse but is not one of these two described as seeming to shimmer like a heat haze, his tattoos shifting and shimmering on his skin? I'll go look it up in a mo and get back to you. (still looking)

From the very beginning of being involved in this fandom I have argued that the Red Temple sifts children for magical ability and those who have it are given over to become acolytes. And eventually priests. That those who don't make the grade are divided again into the most common commodities of their sex.  Prostitution or soldier.  Mel has magical ability clearly. And so does Moqorro. A person with magic is always going to have a greater capacity to handle a spell such as the fire kiss than those who do not have any magical ability. This is why Mel is so keen to make shadow babies out of Jon's sperm. He's a strong magic user; or at least will be when he stops navel gazing and embraces that side of himself.  

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

No, actually, she can and will come back if R'hllor calls her back. She sees the entire world through the lenses of her religion and there R'hllor decides everything. If he brought her back again and she is his instrument he will continue to do so until her work is done. And that would greatly reduce her fear of death, possibly even make it pointless to look for a danger to herself in the fire.

Good point regarding her faith and how that might effect her fear of death. But I think that's taking her fanaticism a bit too far. Having faith is one thing but she isn't an idiot. She knows that without someone to perform the "prayer" she's done for good. We know this because of the way she utilises magic herself to augment what she see's as R'hllor's power. She's knowledgeable enough to understand these things. Besides which we have to go with the evidence of the text. Text shows she is a fire wight because she exhibits all the characteristics. And text also shows she fears attacks from those who would wish her permanently dead.. 

 

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

I think that's too far a stretch. I'm not saying Melisandre did not spend some time at the red temple in Volantis, but at this point there is no real evidence for that, and her own take on the prophecy strongly implies she is rather far away from Benerro/Moqorro's take on the prophecy. After all, there is considerable difference between Benerro's sermon about Azor Ahai and Melisandre's talk about him.

Well I shan't argue the point. lets just wait and see who's correct hey. ;) For me he laid out a lot of seemingly useless information about the classes of slaves and their tattoos in Volantis.  

Being originally from there. Or should I say rather her life with the R'hllorist's beginning there. Doesn't mean that she is now aligned with that temple. Far from it imo. We know she is hiding those slave tattoos as well as her true appearance via a glamour.

What else do we learn in Tyrion's chapters about escaped slaves? We learn that the tattoos give a way for them to be easily captured and brought back to be re-sold and that the Red Temple will buy back any with their flame tattoos.

We also have this quote from Tyrion. 

ADWD Tyrion X

Quote

The bidders sat on wooden benches sipping fruit drinks. A few were being fanned by slaves. Many wore tokars, that peculiar garment beloved by the old blood of Slaver's Bay, as elegant as it was impractical. Others dressed more plainly—men in tunics and hooded cloaks, women in colored silks. Whores or priestesses, most like; this far east it was hard to tell the two apart.

  And we know Mel is part of a specific sect; she tells us so. It is worth at this point remembering that Mel also tells us she has endured great suffering for her art. That and the trauma of being taken from her mother still haunt her, so she was not always  priestess it seems but a prostitute. One who has run away from the Red Temple and joined a breakaway sect where the way AAR is interpreted may differ to explain the differences between her preaching and Benerro's.  At least that is a possibility as I see it. I'm reminded of an old SSM where he says something along the lines of Mel having her own agenda. 

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

Precisely. So how could the Strangler actually harm Melisandre? She doesn't have to be dead to be immune to that. Not to mention that her clear foreknowledge of that assassination attempt could have allowed her to take an antidote before she drank the poison. There might be rather mundane ways to immunize oneself against the Strangler - although such things would be rarely used considering that one has to know that the Strangler is going to be used to kill you. Once this poison has been administered it is too late.

The strangler works by having a physical effect upon the muscles of the throat. Causing them to constrict and block the airway. This means that whatever prevented it working on Mel had to stop that action. And there has been no mention whatsoever of an antidote or preventative to it. Assuming there is is a bit of a stretch. If this was the case the author would need to drop a hint or have say Tyrion mention it in his chapter discussing poisons in KL.

The prologue where Maester Cressen administers the Strangler to her is an OMG moment. How has she survived such a deadly poison? Like so much to do with Mel we start out in awe of her and this allows GRRM to build an impression of her in our minds. One which time and time again he later shatters.

Mel is from mysterious  Asshai. no; she is from Essos, no one is from Asshai there are no children there.

Mel is a powerful sorceress, no; she uses parlour tricks alongside some genuine magical ability and spells she has learnt in Asshai to awe her audience and convince them of R'hllor's power.

She isn't even that gifted at scrying the flames as we learn when she gets it so wrong regarding Alys and of course her failure regarding Stannis who she has wrongly identified as AAR. 

We start out with the impression that she is a very powerful priestess from a mysterious land to the east, who can do incredible things. But when we enter her POV we discover a woman full of doubts about herself and her ability, about how she interprets the visions, and what she is supposed to be doing. One who uses smoke and mirrors to fool people as to the extent of those powers.  She's as flawed and as fallible as anyone else. 

So when GRRM gives us the last clues as to Mel's status as a Fire Wight, which he has been laying the way for from early on. By introducing Beric and having Thoros describe the process and Arya observe the characteristics, and having Brienne later observe the same in LSH, who the author has told us via Thoros was passed this flame that had previously animated Beric. We suddenly can have the Aha! moment. She didn't need to concern herself with drinking the Strangler because with no need to take in oxygen the physical effect of the poison won't matter.  

Just as he makes it crystal clear in Moqorro by having Victarion point out the impossibility of his survival. 

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

Sure, and there would also be a reason why Moqorro was sent and not some other priest. But I was more wondering about the mechanics of finding ships in the middle of the sea and then directing another ship to show up at the correct time. That's very precise prophesying. In fact, if you think about in detail almost insanely precise.

It is bonkers! It has to be the work of multiple priests all scrying for specific information in order to pin point when and how to infiltrate Victarion's ship.  And I think personally that Moqorro rather than being already a wight like Mel; who is hundreds of years old it is suggested and confirmed by Carrice in that interview I believe, he was given/volunteered for it. But that is just my personal feeling. There isn't anything in the text to suggest it. But we know the magic is strong in the world again and that the Red Temple would not be above asking for self sacrifice to facilitate the necessary. I think Thoros stumbled upon it with Beric but that Benerro made a gamble that paid off with Moqorro. But yeah totally my own idea not what is hinted in text. 

Edited to add: having looked as I'm searching for the reference to Moqoro's tattoos seeming to shimmer and writhe. It turns out the predicted outcome for the ship was Benerro not Moqorro. But frankly this does not rule out a collaborative job undertaken by the priests of Volantis as we all know how the boss  taking credit for everyone else's hard work is universal. 

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, they don't have to be *that different*, just a little bit. After all, just because it reads 'nor mortal man, etc.' doesn't mean this is to be understood literally.

Yeah I'll have to disagree, I think it is literal and is about Wights. I mean come on! GRRM wrote into the story nonmortal men(and women) who are capable of blowing a horn as they have full control over their bodies. And those non mortal men have a fire inside them, are fuelled by fire. And the cult which these non mortal men are associated with/originate from is heavily associated with Valyria. The Red Temple of Volantis is built by Dragonlords for their slaves and the cult itself was huge in Valyria amongst those slaves.  

{Separate but I'll mention it to be really clear on my stance, I do not believe the magic involved is exclusive to the Rh'llorists or Valyria at all as demonstrated in FaB and TWOIAF and The main series there are other non R'hllorists who have practiced the same magics. }

Then he introduces a magical Dragon horn from Valyria where the Red Priests were so prevalent, and where they ministered to the Dragonlords slaves.  And it causes anyone who blows it to burn from the inside out. And it says on the side that no mortal man can blow it and live. And it says blood for fire, fire for blood on the other side. And who has exchanged blood for fire? well fire wights. And who has fire for blood, yup fire wights.

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is Dany's own memory/belief that the dragonlords of olds actually supposedly used magical horns and spells to control their dragons. But since we know that the Westerosi Targaryens got along very fine with their dragons without using horns or spells I expect that horns like Dragonbinder either play a crucial role in establishing a link between a dragon and a human (bloodline) (i.e. creating a dragonlord (bloodline) from a non-dragonlord (bloodline)) or as a means to steal a dragon from the rider who has bonded with/mounted a particular dragon.

Considering the fact that there was this constant infighting among the dragonlord families I expect the latter idea is more likely. 

Yeah, I was very interested when reading FaB in what I could glean re the dragonlords of old and how they controlled dragons, and how early targaryens mastered theirs. But there wasn't a lot. And what there was didn't really align with this idea of whips and horns. But evidently both have a part to play. Out of interest I don't suppose you have collated all the pertinent information from FaB regarding dragons have you? such as the hatcheries, the dragon keepers the egg storage place and any references to the lore of old etc?  Cos an easy to read piece on that would be mighty helpful. 

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, actually Jaehaerys I seems to have had no issues with Andal succession customs.

Indeed he did. But that didn't prevent the ructions developing when the succession became muddy. 

 

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

It would be interesting to learn that riderless dragons can also be controlled in some fashion, but at this point there is no evidence that this ever happened. For instance, George could have implied that some of the dragons attacking the Rhoynar were riderless. But there are no such hints.

Yes, nothing as yet which implies it. This is just me coming up with ideas, because so far I'm not convinced of much in regards the outcome of the battle of Merreen and how the dragons get from there to Westeros. 

 

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that's certainly possible. Although I'd find it rather cheesy if Jon suddenly looked Targaryen after everybody knew/believed he is descended from them. But then, George has used such descriptions before. Cat realizing Robb does look like his father in some regards despite the fact that his coloring is all Tully red, Areo realizing that all the Sand Snakes have their father's eyes, even those who have different eye colors, etc.

Cheesy Maybe. But in keeping with what GRRM has done already as you point out.

And as I am always saying we are not writing our own story nor deciding what is good writing or not good writing. But rather analysing a text in order to predict possible future outcomes of that text. And for that we need to use what we find within it as our primary source.

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I think the Dance will already be going when he defects, but keep in mind that a Two Betrayer-like scenario could have devastating effect if, say, Ben decided to torch Oldtown while Aegon's army came knocking (in a scenario where Oldtown ended up in team Dany due to machinations of Sam and Sarella).

interesting idea.   

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This is the SSM. 

Quote

Why did Melisandre seek out Stannis? Did she see him in her flames and decided to seek him out on her own, or is she on a mission on behalf of the red priests? It doesn't seem at any point as if the latter is the case, when you compare to Moqorro who has been sent out by the priesthood.

You're right. Melisandre has gone to Stannis entirely on her own, and has her own agenda.

 

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8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I feel people are far too presumptuous about Cat.  Yes her being dead for longer could mean the loss of self has accelerated in her. But really we have no idea how lost or not Cat is in there. We have not seen anywhere near enough of LSH to judge that. LSH is ruthless. Mother Merciless. But Catelyn Tully was always a pretty ruthless practical and unforgiving person anyway. And no I am not a Cat hater; those guys are ridiculous. But her character is very pragmatic, her flaw is that she has a prideful side to her. She is fierce and prepared to do what ever it takes to win, or to defend her family, etc. The Tully words are a description of Cat. And I like these things about her they are good qualities which in another character would be praised not derided.  So I don't think what LSH is doing is that far out of character for her actually.  She comes across as someone who no longer gives a fuck. And it feels very much in line with what GRRM has said about resurrections. That there is a price to pay. She's lost compassion and a certain element of her rationalisation.  I'm reserving judgement on just how much she has changed until we see more of her. 

I'd like to agree with you but what George said when he explained to people that Cat would *never* be a POV again, that she isn't really the Catelyn we knew anymore, really doesn't allow us to assume something like that. Catelyn Stark is very much a zombie now. She is partially rotten. And the message George seems to try to send here is that it is not just her body that has been corrupted but also her mind.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

We have no hints that Beric nor Cat emanate heat. But  that doesn't mean they don't. In fact we kind of do have a clue for Beric in that his blood is combustible.  We were only aware that Mellisandre emanated heat upon her arrival in the extreme north where it became more noticeable and where we had a POV to tell us that was the case. The only POV we get on her prior to Jon is Davos and he doesn't get very near to her nor is he is an environment where that heat would be immediately noticeable.

Oh, Mel's heat is hinted at earlier. I never said that Beric and Cat don't have fire magic in them - it is what resurrected them and keeps/kept them 'alive' - just that we have no reason to assume it is the same kind of fire magic that drives Melisandre nor the same degree or intensity of fire magic. POV characters like Arya, Merrett Frey, and Brienne were pretty close to Beric and Lady Stoneheart to notice whether they were emanating unnatural/magical heat or not. And while there is no confirmation of that we cannot say they resemble Melisandre in that fashion.

Moqorro doesn't emanate this kind of magical heat, either, by the way. And two POV characters are pretty close to him, too. At this point, Melisandre is really special in this regard.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

From the very beginning of being involved in this fandom I have argued that the Red Temple sifts children for magical ability and those who have it are given over to become acolytes. And eventually priests. That those who don't make the grade are divided again into the most common commodities of their sex.  Prostitution or soldier.  Mel has magical ability clearly. And so does Moqorro. A person with magic is always going to have a greater capacity to handle a spell such as the fire kiss than those who do not have any magical ability. This is why Mel is so keen to make shadow babies out of Jon's sperm. He's a strong magic user; or at least will be when he stops navel gazing and embraces that side of himself.

Oh, I'm sure you are right about the practices of the Volantene temple here. But this doesn't really answer the question whether Melisandre ever served at that particular temple and not at a temple in another city. Say, Myr, where Thoros was trained, or Lys, Tyrosh, Pentos, etc. Eventually she went to Asshai anyway, so it might actually not be that relevant where she was introduced to the R'hllorian faith. In fact, her memory of the slave auction she was sold as the girl Melony implies that this may have happened at Slaver's Bay (there the slaves are confirmed to be referred to as 'lot' - whether that's the same in Volantis or the other Free Cities we do not know, actually) which could indicate she served as a red priestess in another city entirely - say, Qarth, one of the Ghiscari cities, or even in Yi Ti (assuming there are red temples there).

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Good point regarding her faith and how that might effect her fear of death. But I think that's taking her fanaticism a bit too far. Having faith is one thing but she isn't an idiot. She knows that without someone to perform the "prayer" she's done for good. We know this because of the way she utilises magic herself to augment what she see's as R'hllor's power. She's knowledgeable enough to understand these things. Besides which we have to go with the evidence of the text. Text shows she is a fire wight because she exhibits all the characteristics. And text also shows she fears attacks from those who would wish her permanently dead.. 

She does not exhibit all the characteristic of the fire wights.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 Being originally from there. Or should I say rather her life with the R'hllorist's beginning there. Doesn't mean that she is now aligned with that temple. Far from it imo. We know she is hiding those slave tattoos as well as her true appearance via a glamour.

That is a possibility, but I actually doubt she hides much. Her red hair and eyes are, I think, completely genuine, a consequence of the amount of fire she carries within her body. As Cressen realized long ago, Melisandre doesn't just wear red, she herself is red.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And we know Mel is part of a specific sect; she tells us so. It is worth at this point remembering that Mel also tells us she has endured great suffering for her art. That and the trauma of being taken from her mother still haunt her, so she was not always  priestess it seems but a prostitute. One who has run away from the Red Temple and joined a breakaway sect where the way AAR is interpreted may differ to explain the differences between her preaching and Benerro's.  At least that is a possibility as I see it. I'm reminded of an old SSM where he says something along the lines of Mel having her own agenda. 

Oh, well, I expect that she was indoctrinated into her present beliefs at the temple she was brought up in. From there she eventually traveled to Asshai (which happened later in her life as she herself implies in her chapter). One assumes her own agenda comes, at least in part, from whatever she learned in Asshai and the lore there, considering that all the other red priests we met so far never were in Asshai.

She also practices various schools of magic but acts and sees herself in every role/function she plays as an instrument of the Lord of Light.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The strangler works by having a physical effect upon the muscles of the throat. Causing them to constrict and block the airway. This means that whatever prevented it working on Mel had to stop that action. And there has been no mention whatsoever of an antidote or preventative to it. Assuming there is is a bit of a stretch. If this was the case the author would need to drop a hint or have say Tyrion mention it in his chapter discussing poisons in KL.

Even if there were no antidote against the Strangler, it is clear now that Mel foresaw Cressen attempts just as she foresaw Davos' later attempt and every other attempt made on her life before that - and that means she could also have neutralized the Strangler with a particular spell she knew. Surely you don't question the fact that magic could neutralize a mundane poison? Not to mention that a magically transformed person like Melisandre could also simply be immune to all mundane poison simply because of that transformation. She doesn't have to be undead for that.

Not to mention that we actually don't know that people like Cat and Beric couldn't be killed via poison. They can and have been slain, have they not? Doesn't that imply one could have also poisoned Beric or could poison Cat?

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Mel is from mysterious  Asshai. no; she is from Essos, no one is from Asshai there are no children there.

Oh, well, that there are no children in Asshai is just a claim of Yandel's. George told us not to take Yandel's account on Asshai all to seriously. He compared it to a medieval monk commenting on Japan or Korea. 

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Mel is a powerful sorceress, no; she uses parlour tricks alongside some genuine magical ability and spells she has learnt in Asshai to awe her audience and convince them of R'hllor's power.

She uses both trickery and true magic. But it was always clear that she was not just a charlatan, wasn't it? Cressen's death showed that, as did Davos' witnessing the birth of the shadow assassin.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

She isn't even that gifted at scrying the flames as we learn when she gets it so wrong regarding Alys and of course her failure regarding Stannis who she has wrongly identified as AAR. 

We have to wait and see what convinced her of Stannis being the guy. Could have been a vision that very much implied that he was the one. There is literally no reason to fault Melisandre for her assumption that Alys Karstark may be Arya Stark. She never saw Arya, so she couldn't possibly identify her correctly. But it actually made sense, didn't it?

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

We start out with the impression that she is a very powerful priestess from a mysterious land to the east, who can do incredible things. But when we enter her POV we discover a woman full of doubts about herself and her ability, about how she interprets the visions, and what she is supposed to be doing. One who uses smoke and mirrors to fool people as to the extent of those powers.  She's as flawed and as fallible as anyone else.

She makes mistakes but she has real power. She is likely the most powerful sorceress we have met so far in the series. Euron might eventually surpass her but he has yet to deliver.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

So when GRRM gives us the last clues as to Mel's status as a Fire Wight, which he has been laying the way for from early on. By introducing Beric and having Thoros describe the process and Arya observe the characteristics, and having Brienne later observe the same in LSH, who the author has told us via Thoros was passed this flame that had previously animated Beric. We suddenly can have the Aha! moment. She didn't need to concern herself with drinking the Strangler because with no need to take in oxygen the physical effect of the poison won't matter.

Well, I don't understand how she can talk if she is not supposed to breathe...?

Not to mention that the poison effecting her should have been seen. They should have all seen that Mel was showing the same symptoms as Cressen but did not die. That didn't happen.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Just as he makes it crystal clear in Moqorro by having Victarion point out the impossibility of his survival. 

Victarion doesn't know what Moqorro or even a less powerful sorcerer can do, no? 

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

It is bonkers! It has to be the work of multiple priests all scrying for specific information in order to pin point when and how to infiltrate Victarion's ship.

My issue with that thing simply is that I literally don't see how anyone could see a vision of the sea and some ships in a fire and then actually conclude from such an image where and when exactly said event is supposed to take place. Visuals simply cannot give you that information. It is like me telling where the hell you are just from seeing you on a ship in the water.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Edited to add: having looked as I'm searching for the reference to Moqoro's tattoos seeming to shimmer and writhe. It turns out the predicted outcome for the ship was Benerro not Moqorro. But frankly this does not rule out a collaborative job undertaken by the priests of Volantis as we all know how the boss  taking credit for everyone else's hard work is universal.

Yeah, Benerro foresaw what would happen to the ship, but it is Moqorro who helps Victarion to find the lost ships and how to acquire new ones.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yeah I'll have to disagree, I think it is literal and is about Wights. I mean come on! GRRM wrote into the story nonmortal men(and women) who are capable of blowing a horn as they have full control over their bodies. And those non mortal men have a fire inside them, are fuelled by fire. And the cult which these non mortal men are associated with/originate from is heavily associated with Valyria. The Red Temple of Volantis is built by Dragonlords for their slaves and the cult itself was huge in Valyria amongst those slaves.  

But those fire wights still are mortal, are they not? Beric was killed six times! I'd expect the text on the horn to read 'no living man shall sound me and live' if it was supposed to refer to those fire wights. 'Mortal' can refer to literal mortality - and the wights are still mortal - or be used in a less literal sense, say, for people who think they are better than mere mortal men. And this would actually refer to the dragonlords themselves.

I mean, if I had such a horn and it could actually help you to control dragons then I'd use certain safety nets to prevent 'mortal men' to use it...

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Then he introduces a magical Dragon horn from Valyria where the Red Priests were so prevalent, and where they ministered to the Dragonlords slaves.  And it causes anyone who blows it to burn from the inside out. And it says on the side that no mortal man can blow it and live. And it says blood for fire, fire for blood on the other side. And who has exchanged blood for fire? well fire wights. And who has fire for blood, yup fire wights.

There seem to have been red priests in Valyria but they were apparently not exactly the majority religion there. Red priests blame the Valyrian elites for the Doom, and the fact that R'hllor is mainly worshiped by slaves in Volantis rather than the Old Blood strongly suggests this religion was never popular among Valyrian elites.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yeah, I was very interested when reading FaB in what I could glean re the dragonlords of old and how they controlled dragons, and how early targaryens mastered theirs. But there wasn't a lot. And what there was didn't really align with this idea of whips and horns. But evidently both have a part to play. Out of interest I don't suppose you have collated all the pertinent information from FaB regarding dragons have you? such as the hatcheries, the dragon keepers the egg storage place and any references to the lore of old etc?  Cos an easy to read piece on that would be mighty helpful. 

Well, one thing that I was wrong and you (I think) were right is the new revelation that dragon eggs rather quickly turn to stone if they are removed from a hot environment (i.e. the Dragonmount, for instance). Dragons did thrive and multiply on Dragonstone because of the natural heat there. However, we do also have confirmation of dragons hatching elsewhere - Rhaena's Morning hatched in the Vale of Arryn, and we also know of dragon eggs hatching on Driftmark and in KL (both the Dragonpit and the Red Keep)

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Indeed he did. But that didn't prevent the ructions developing when the succession became muddy. 

That was due to the Old King being old and everybody was expecting him to die soon. If the succession is unclear and various parties have an interest to see their candidate succeed to the throne then the wishes of the monarch no longer have much weight. That's usually how such succession wars break out. There is no clear heir but various pretenders, etc.

8 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, nothing as yet which implies it. This is just me coming up with ideas, because so far I'm not convinced of much in regards the outcome of the battle of Merreen and how the dragons get from there to Westeros. 

I'd actually be very surprised if Dany's dragons could be controlled without riders. If that were possible then there would be no need for riders at all, would there?

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I had forgotten about this mushroom analysis. Examined in the context of poisons. Fwiw:

 

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd like to agree with you but what George said when he explained to people that Cat would *never* be a POV again, that she isn't really the Catelyn we knew anymore, really doesn't allow us to assume something like that. Catelyn Stark is very much a zombie now. She is partially rotten. And the message George seems to try to send here is that it is not just her body that has been corrupted but also her mind.

Fair enough, I didn't know he had said that. 

Personally I've always viewed LSH as being pretty much along the lines of a Cat who has lost her morality.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, Mel's heat is hinted at earlier. I never said that Beric and Cat don't have fire magic in them - it is what resurrected them and keeps/kept them 'alive' - just that we have no reason to assume it is the same kind of fire magic that drives Melisandre nor the same degree or intensity of fire magic. POV characters like Arya, Merrett Frey, and Brienne were pretty close to Beric and Lady Stoneheart to notice whether they were emanating unnatural/magical heat or not. And while there is no confirmation of that we cannot say they resemble Melisandre in that fashion.

Moqorro doesn't emanate this kind of magical heat, either, by the way. And two POV characters are pretty close to him, too. At this point, Melisandre is really special in this regard.

What hints do we get earlier on? I don't recall any.  

I'm not assuming though. I'm looking at the evidence in the text and the logical conclusion is that she is a fire wight.  

We can not say they resemble her in emanating heat no. Non of our other fire wights have been said to emanate heat. But this is far from conclusive evidence that Mel is special. or different and can not be the same type of wight. It's reaching to draw that conclusion.  

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I'm sure you are right about the practices of the Volantene temple here. But this doesn't really answer the question whether Melisandre ever served at that particular temple and not at a temple in another city. Say, Myr, where Thoros was trained, or Lys, Tyrosh, Pentos, etc. Eventually she went to Asshai anyway, so it might actually not be that relevant where she was introduced to the R'hllorian faith. In fact, her memory of the slave auction she was sold as the girl Melony implies that this may have happened at Slaver's Bay (there the slaves are confirmed to be referred to as 'lot' - whether that's the same in Volantis or the other Free Cities we do not know, actually) which could indicate she served as a red priestess in another city entirely - say, Qarth, one of the Ghiscari cities, or even in Yi Ti (assuming there are red temples there).

As I pointed out. the author goes to great and seemingly meaningless length to tell us all about the tattoos in Volantis and their meanings and that their are three classes of slave at the red temple there. And then he has Mel tell us her tears were of flame. And has Tyrion who he used to describe all these tattoos and slave types tell us it is hard to tell the difference between a whore and a priestess.  

I'd like to point out that I'm not saying it is important where she was introduced to R'hllor. What I am saying is that the evidence in the text; which is done in a manner which is totally in keeping with GRRM's style, tells us that she was a temple prostitute in Volantis. 

Only Volantis uses these elaborate tattoos for their slaves. Both in the city and in places under their control such as Selhorys. So going by this information Mel was sold there. Lot is the word used universally for auction lots in the English language as I am sure you are aware. Whilst GRRM might have decided to change it up in Volantis and only use Lot when referring to auction lots in slavers bay. It seems highly unlikely and a massive assumption based on no evidence at all. And come on you're better than that.  You tell me that we can't assume the other fire wights emanate heat because no one has said they do in one paragraph then decide that the only word used in the English language for an auction lot might be different in Volantis because it wasn't specifically said during those chapters set there in the next.  This is a massive unevidenced assumption and one which doesn't even make any sense. 

Our job is not to decide what we want to happen but to use the text to decide what will happen based upon the clues held within it. Sometimes those clues are derived from the real world, our histories, mythology, and fairy tales. Sometimes they are derived using the in world lore, legends, and practices.  But always we should be using the words on the pages to make decisions about what might happen. Not simply what we do or do not want to happen. 

GRRM went to great lengths to tell us all about Red Temple Slaves out of Volantis, he spent lots of time and space on the pages explaining the tattoos, and the fact that having flame tattoos means any slaves will always be returned to the Temples of R'hllor. They are their marker. And he used specific phrasing twice to hint that Mel has a tattoo of flame tears marking her as a prostitute once from her "her tears were of flame" and once from Tyrion; who is connected to this foreshadowing as the person who introduces the three categories of slave, the tattoo used for whores, and the fact that these tattoos mean you can never be free from these roles, who tells us it is hard to tell the difference between the whores and the priestesses.

I'm done on this element of the discussion now. I feel I have provided adequate evidence for my theory. I've used quotes from the text to back it up and explained why I think they mean what I say they mean. And I think most people reading will see those connections and can make their own minds up. Either I'm right or I am wrong. But GRRM started to introduce a back story for Mel in ADWD and that back story is of slavery and ties in with everything else I have said.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She does not exhibit all the characteristic of the fire wights.

So, which ones does she not exhibit? We've been over this. Or so I thought.  If she has only been raised once she doesn't become like Beric or Cat who have been raised over and over again and raised after a prolonged period of death respectively. Also being a person with magical ability in her DNA she may react differently to the spell than someone with non. 

And likewise we've been over the sleep thing. The author is telling us that these people do not need to eat, drink or sleep. She falls into that category. Her eating is for show only; and the fire takes care of the issue you raised of digestion, she drinks only to ease a dryness in her throat and Beric too takes sips of wine, and she hardly "sleeps" and nor do the other wights we meet. 

Are there some characteristics I have missed?

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is a possibility, but I actually doubt she hides much. Her red hair and eyes are, I think, completely genuine, a consequence of the amount of fire she carries within her body. As Cressen realized long ago, Melisandre doesn't just wear red, she herself is red.

I'm reserving judgement on this one. If I look at what we know. We know she is Red in an unnatural way. That people see her as you point out as being red herself.  And we know she is glamoured because of what we learn regarding glamours and her use of them and rubies.  And we know that she is extremely old thanks to Carrice confirming what has long been suspected. And we now know that it is very likely that she has tattoos which are being hidden. 

We also know she carries a flame inside her; just like Beric & Cat. 

But we have no evidence that the flame causes her uber redness. Or that flames as a magical component can alter a persons appearance. So for now unless new evidence comes to light I'd say it is far safer to assume her unnatural redness comes from the glamour which we know she is wearing.

Always base your theories on what is in the text. And be cautious about making assumptions which don't have text based evidence.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, well, I expect that she was indoctrinated into her present beliefs at the temple she was brought up in. From there she eventually traveled to Asshai (which happened later in her life as she herself implies in her chapter). One assumes her own agenda comes, at least in part, from whatever she learned in Asshai and the lore there, considering that all the other red priests we met so far never were in Asshai.

She also practices various schools of magic but acts and sees herself in every role/function she plays as an instrument of the Lord of Light.

 

I think we can safely assume she became a believer in R'hllor in whatever temple bought her. I say that temple is likely Volantis, based on the evidence in the text discussed already.  And this is where we have to look at her story and weigh up how she ended up a lone priestess. Because if she was held as a sacred prostitute in Volantis she would not have the opportunity to go to Asshai. We are told by the author that those tattoos mean the slave  will always be returned to the Red Temple. So it is plausible that this is why she uses a glamour. To give herself the freedom to travel as a priestess not a prostitute who is a commodity of the red temple. Just like those fiery hands who Tyrion spends so much time telling us about are commodities of the Red Temple who will be returned due to their tattoos. 

Now I won't pretend to know how or why she managed to escape the Red Temple in Volantis or what happened to her in between. There isn't enough evidence yet I suspect we will find out in TWOW. 

But somehow and for some reason she left Volantis and travelled to Asshai. Where we know from the world book many red priests go along side practitioners from other religions and cults and general magic users seeking to further their knowledge and abilities. And we are told that they do this ( the cultists at least) to practice the darker aspects of their arts. 

TWOIAF : The Bones and Beyond: Asshai - by-the-Shadow. 

Quote

The ships come nonetheless. For gold, for gems, and for other treasures, for certain things spoken of only in whispers, things that cannot be found anywhere upon the earth save in the black bazaars of Asshai.

The dark city by the Shadow is a city steeped in sorcery. Warlocks, wizards, alchemists, moonsingers, red priests, black alchemists, necromancers, aeromancers, pyromancers, bloodmages, torturers, inquisitors, poisoners, godswives, night-walkers, shapechangers, worshippers of the Black Goat and the Pale Child and the Lion of Night, all find welcome in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, where nothing is forbidden. Here they are free to practice their spells without restraint or censure, conduct their obscene rites, and fornicate with demons if that is their desire.

Most sinister of all the sorcerers of Asshai are the shadowbinders, whose lacquered masks hide their faces from the eyes of gods and men. They alone dare to go upriver past the walls of Asshai, into the heart of darkness.

Here we are told that the people who seek out Asshai are doing so to practice without restraint or censure. And that it is dark arts which attract them. Red Priests being specified. 

And we are told the most sinister are the Shadow binders. Now Mel has not become a lacquered mask wearing shadow binder. But she most certainly has learnt their arts. She uses magic to conjure shadow assassins from her womb. And in doing so she takes the essence of men via their sperm. Sucking the life from them slowly through sexual congress. Yeah that is sinister. 

But as you say she does not attribute any of her other forms of magic to herself but all to R'hllor. Which is disingenuous. We know that she knows that she learnt that shit from the shadow binders. Just as we know that she knows that those alchemists powders are doing the work for her when she performs her nightly performance for her followers. 

So we can assume that GRRM wants us to connect Mel who is a red priestess who has been to Asshai with the reasons he gives us here that Red Priests travel to Asshai. Especially given that Mel comes back from there with knowledge of the most sinister of asshai'n practices - shadow binding.  He's also hinted here that Mel may have been into the heart of darkness ( cue 70's music and helicopter noise)

Whilst GRRM tells us not to take Yendall's words as facts. he has undoubtedly used them to give us his usual smattering of hints and clues. We shouldn't just right the world book off as useless and incorrect. It is a rich resource in the series full of clues.  I tend to think that it is when a Maester tells us things are untrue and another source conflicts with this such as Septon Barth that we should discount the Maesters pov. And yes the far lands are described in the same way as our own historical explorers did. Fantastically inaccurate. But most of those whacky claims came from real things. It is up to us to read the world book and interpret what is and is not true and how those fantastical tales might be sifted through to learn the truth.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even if there were no antidote against the Strangler, it is clear now that Mel foresaw Cressen attempts just as she foresaw Davos' later attempt and every other attempt made on her life before that - and that means she could also have neutralized the Strangler with a particular spell she knew. Surely you don't question the fact that magic could neutralize a mundane poison? Not to mention that a magically transformed person like Melisandre could also simply be immune to all mundane poison simply because of that transformation. She doesn't have to be undead for that.

Not to mention that we actually don't know that people like Cat and Beric couldn't be killed via poison. They can and have been slain, have they not? Doesn't that imply one could have also poisoned Beric or could poison Cat?

 Again we have to go with what is in the text. There is no mention of an antidote. Therefore it is unlikely one exists. Yes she most definitely foresaw Cressen's attempt.  

She could have neutralised it using a spell. But again there is no mention of spells to neutralise poison and again GRRM has had ample discussion of poisons in the text both Tyrion and Arya discuss them extensively.  The FM are one of only a few factions who we know know how to create the strangler and they are also knowledgeable about magic. They use glamour's and skinwearing. And undoubtedly FM have been sent to Asshai to learn many magics which helped perfect their techniques. If there is a spell we ought to have learnt of it via Arya. GRRM likes to pepper the later books with reveals. Such as the one about Basilisk Venom. 

Magic being able to neutralise a poison is not a fact. We have not one single case of a magic which has been used to do that. And no hint at all that it can. And GRRM has written plenty in both the main series and in FaB and the world book about poisons. 

Yes that is my point she is magically transformed by the spell known as the fire kiss. And this transformation has made her immune to the strangler because how the strangler works it constricts the muscles of the windpipe. 

We now know from GRRM himself that they are dead, and their bodies no longer function as ours do. their hearts don't beat, their blood does not flow, and from that we can conclude they don't breath either! I used to think Drogo was another fire wight who was brought back using the kiss. But following that statement from GRRM had to conclude he was not. Precisely because he was breathing and Dany smothered him with a pillow to kill him. In fact I think you argued that very point with me?  

I am quite content to acknowledge when an idea or theory has been wrong. I thought Alys was a Blackwood too but have been proven wrong, you were right she is a Strong. I've had to re-think things and will be revisiting my ideas about her in accordance. 

So if she doesn't breath she isn't going to be effected by the strangler.  All Beric's deaths are caused physically with mortal blows bar his hanging which can either be strangulation; which fucks this theory or breaking his neck which does not. I think we need to go read about his hanging and see if it is clear which.  But always bear in mind that GRRM has said not to read into the magic too closely as he has not worked out a system by which magic works precisely. There are contradictions within the text and times when we just have to go with what he has put on the page. Such as if their blood doesn't flow why do we get the dramatic gush of blood following the Hounds fatal sword wound to Beric in the weirwood cave? I seriously wouldn't put it past GRRM to have Mel immune to the poison because of his idea that wights are dead but have Beric be hanged by the slow method because that sounded so much more gruesome on the page. Like Beric's blood gushes out in a horror scene like image despite the fact he has decided the heart isn't pumping that blood around his body. 

I mean if we take GRRM's words as law then Beric should not have been killed at all. But he was 6 times. All the bodily functions impaired by the methods of killing him would be fatal to us. But they are all ones which should not be fatal to a fire wight whose body is not fuelled by blood being pumped around the body and oxygen filling the lungs, controlled by neuro activity in the brain.  So like GRRM tells us don't look behind the curtain too much. I've looked behind the curtain a lot. I've spent a long time studying the magic in ASOIAF and it roughly works but if you look too close as we are attempting to do here it falls down.  But in the absence of evidence for an antidote or a spell to neutralise the strangler and evidence that Mel is an undead fire wight; which we do have, my explanation becomes the simplest. She is unaffected because she doesn't breath air to live. And that is in line with what GRRM said about fire wights. Even if he himself has contradicted what he said in the text. That's on him, he can do what he likes. We however should not decide whatever we like about the story we should use the evidence on the page and the words of the author.

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, well, that there are no children in Asshai is just a claim of Yandel's. George told us not to take Yandel's account on Asshai all to seriously. He compared it to a medieval monk commenting on Japan or Korea. 

Yes as I said before re Yandel. Taking him with a  Pinch of salt doesn't mean we should Throw the baby out with the bath water.   GRRM has used the imagery of Asshai in the world book to convey a place of mystery but also a sinister place reeking of magical corruption and leaching out a malevolent power. This idea that no woman can grow a life inside her within the place sits snugly alongside this. The only babies born in Asshai are the shadows created by sinister sorceresses which suck the life force out of men through their weakness for sex.

 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She uses both trickery and true magic. But it was always clear that she was not just a charlatan, wasn't it? Cressen's death showed that, as did Davos' witnessing the birth of the shadow assassin.

I've not said she is just a charlatan. However GRRM sets her up as this massively powerful sorceress and we later learn that she in fact uses many tricks to convey this which upon inspection are far less awe inspiring. He sets this up from the beginning of the book and just as he is doing with many mysteries he's revealing them to us as we go along. So we discover that she used trickery to convince those around us of her power. The nonsense with the leaches, the powders, the big show of drinking the strangler when she knew full well it would not harm her; for whatever reason, the display on the beach where she gives Stannis his fake sword, the big show again at the wall burning "mance" and making the wildlings burn weirwood branches. It is all showmanship.  It is about awing people who do not understand how she does these things in order to convert them to R'hllorism.  Benerro's doing it too with his powders just the same as Mel's that make the fiery golden glyphs in the air outside the temple as he speaks.  And that is why she accredits R'hllor with everything she does despite knowing herself that she picked that trick up from some other cult such as the shadow binders, or that she is just using alchemists powders. Or that she is using the images she legitimately see's in her flames to create faux magic.

MMD does this too by creating an atmosphere of terror in the tent and the way she creates these shadowy monsters on the tents walls, we don't know how she did that but I suspect it was more powders or some other trick she learnt herself in Asshai.

GRRM sets it up from the start that people see power where they want to and that magic users can use their powers to convince others of things. There is true and powerful magic in this world but there is also the human desire to exploit people and to con others for their own purposes.   Mellisandre is a true believer and no doubt truly believes that her manipulations are in the peoples best interests because she believes that she has to do whatever it takes to win the war against darkness. And facilitate AAR in this task. 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have to wait and see what convinced her of Stannis being the guy. Could have been a vision that very much implied that he was the one. There is literally no reason to fault Melisandre for her assumption that Alys Karstark may be Arya Stark. She never saw Arya, so she couldn't possibly identify her correctly. But it actually made sense, didn't it?

Again we have to go with what is in the text. And what the author has told us.  In this case I have not found anything directly in the text so  I am going on what is in the official app.  I welcome any explanation as to how and when she came to Dragonstone from the text. 

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Called the Red Woman for her unnaturally red hair and eyes, and the red robes she wears as a priestes of R'hllor, Melisndre of Asshai comes to Dragonstone in search of a prophesised prince, Azor Ahai, who will lead the war against the Great Other. She quickly becomes convinced that this is Stannis Baratheon and so becomes a confidant of lady Selyse, converting Selyse to her faith. 

 This implies that the vision which brought her to Dragonstone was about AAR, or came through asking for a glimpse of AAR. We can assume she was seeking insight as to AAR's whereabouts due to the appearance of the comet I think. That it heralded the promised princes arrival. This much is pretty obvious when you piece together the snippets we have of the prophesy. And then we are told she decided Stannis who she found ruling Dragonstone and who is of the right bloodline to be AAR/TPTWP must be he. Seeking to get into his inner circle via converting his wife.  I'd love more clear evidence of the order of events though if you happen to be aware and can provide quotes.  

As to Alys well thi sis deliberate on GRM's part. He is showing that she is fallible. And is another way in which he is breaking down that first impression he gave us. This is a technique he uses throughout the books with various characters. That what we think we know is not the case. Similar to how he sets Mel up as being from Asshai but then shows us she is not. And sets R'hllor up as a demon god from that shadowy place but it isn't a religion from Asshai at all, but seems to be from Valyria a construct of it's slave class facilitated by the Valyrian drogonlords to keep the slaves content and in their place.  A mirror to real world religion's role in helping to establish the nobility class in power and keep the lower classes under control and in the their place.  

Everything we think we know is questioned as we progress through the story. Here Melisandre who we thought was this all powerful woman has made a rooky mistake; she even tells us that she needs to be more careful and that many a red priest has been brought down by misinterpreting the visions in her POV chapter. Woops indeed.  

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She makes mistakes but she has real power. She is likely the most powerful sorceress we have met so far in the series. Euron might eventually surpass her but he has yet to deliver.

 Of course she has real power. She is a magic user. Many characters in the story are they are a vital component to the tale. But yes she makes mistakes. Everyone does. That is part of what GRRM is doing he is telling a story with realistic characters so being a magic user doesn't mean you are all powerful and infallible.

Is she the most powerful? I'm not sure we can call that at all. MMD was pretty dope. She actually did bring someone back to life. She too made a mistake though in leaving his consciousness somewhere else or perhaps not she was a cruel woman. Marwyn is being set up as very knowledgeable and also having been to Asshai. Quaithe is capable of using glass candles too it seems. And we have not seen yet what the likes of Morna or perhaps even Val can do. Mother Mole had powerful visions. The Ghost of High Heart has revealed much and more. And advised Aegon V on how to hatch dragons perhaps. Though fucked that up royaly it seems.  And Alys wow, there is a woman with some power. Lets wait to see shall we before we go claiming Melisandre as the most powerful sorceress. 

I am not trying to dismiss Melisandre's abilities to be clear. But the evidence in the text tells us she has been manipulating people to believe she has more power than she does or rather to be awed by her use of magic in order to convince others of R'hllor's powers.  And keep her place as high priestess and #1 advisor to Stannis Baratheon in order to facilitate him as AAR and defeat The Great Other as she truly believes in these deities.  

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I don't understand how she can talk if she is not supposed to breathe...?

Not to mention that the poison effecting her should have been seen. They should have all seen that Mel was showing the same symptoms as Cressen but did not die. That didn't happen.

I think I already covered the inconsistencies in GRRM's magic earlier. But hey How is LSH "alive" if she has to breath to remain animated as a fire wight? She should not be able to be brought back if the rules are that a fire wight needs to breath therefore they clearly don't need to breath, which is in line what he said re hearts and blood etc. 

LSH can't talk properly because her vocal cords were cut, she can only make a gravelly indicated of her will. But we know from Beric that Fire wights can talk just fine if this has not occurred. 

That is simple. her ruby is described as pulsing strongly after she drinks of the wine. This is her glamour working overtime to hide the effects of the strangler. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Victarion doesn't know what Moqorro or even a less powerful sorcerer can do, no? 

Indeed he takes this as proof of the sorcerers power and is awed. But the author is using this to convey information to us via his characters. That is how writing works. You want to establish a fact without the characters themselves being aware of it so you have to find a way to convey information to your readers inadvertently. So GRRM has established a type of wight where bodily needs no longer exist in world. And he wants the reader to work out this character is one of those wights. But the wights are non known to the other characters around him, nor does he want that wight to be revealed to them. So he simply has one of those characters point out that the survival of that character would be impossible due to those bodily functions. Such as drinking sea water will kill you. But if you don't need water to survive then it isn't a problem. And he sets the scene to reveal the lack of another of those bodily functions - sleep by describing Moqorro as clinging to a spar we have all seen Titanic, right.  Then he nails it home by describing the clothes as rags showing that he had no where to secrete food or water prior to the storm which would be secure in order to sustain himself.  What Victarion knows or does not know of sorcery is irrelevant . It is what the author wants to convey that is important in establishing Moqorro's status.  

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My issue with that thing simply is that I literally don't see how anyone could see a vision of the sea and some ships in a fire and then actually conclude from such an image where and when exactly said event is supposed to take place. Visuals simply cannot give you that information. It is like me telling where the hell you are just from seeing you on a ship in the water.

I agree. It's a real stretch but GRRM doesn't want us to peek behind the curtain too much so we have to go with it. My best explanation which allows me to go with it is that Benerro had multiple priests working on it and somehow ascertained from that the precise location and timing. It's a case of just having to accept something. And he's told us there are times we have to do that. Like the sheer absurdity of the size of the wall. Or the distances, or Tyrion's acrobatics.  

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, Benerro foresaw what would happen to the ship, but it is Moqorro who helps Victarion to find the lost ships and how to acquire new ones.

How do we know that hadn't been ascertained by a group effort too. But yeah Moqorro is a magic user too he may well have seen those other ships himself and worked out locations etc through I don't know. Astronomy ?? Again we sometimes have to go with the flow. Maybe GRRM will give us a clue later as to how he is so crazy good at this.  Because I'm not keen on making too many predictions without in text back up. That is the path to la la land theories. 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But those fire wights still are mortal, are they not? Beric was killed six times! I'd expect the text on the horn to read 'no living man shall sound me and live' if it was supposed to refer to those fire wights. 'Mortal' can refer to literal mortality - and the wights are still mortal - or be used in a less literal sense, say, for people who think they are better than mere mortal men. And this would actually refer to the dragonlords themselves.

I mean, if I had such a horn and it could actually help you to control dragons then I'd use certain safety nets to prevent 'mortal men' to use it...

Not really. I mean in the absence of a killing blow; which again I discussed up post, they go on forever. If we look at the multiple historical characters who are said to have lived for hundreds of years it seems to suggest that there is a way in which you can prolong your life via magic. And this fire kiss which we know about and is an established way to do that. Mel being hundreds of years old and displaying all the characteristics of a fire wight kinda bridges that gap. Also the fact that the woods witch at the Whispers seems to have used it to animate severed heads establishes the whole wtf aspect of this whole thing as being nothing to do with actual life. You can cut a wights head off and they "die" but you can then breath the flame into a severed head and it will "live" this is even sort of foreshadowed by Arya asking about bringing back a man whose had his head cut off.  The words on the side of the horn are written by people who are magic users though not an omni knowing being. The author wrote those words with the intention of both telling us something and them having been set down by men in world who maybe know everything he does about his magic or maybe don't. I'd bet on the latter given the way GRRM likes to be realistic about these things. Thoros can do the kiss but has no idea of it's full potential, or how it works, and he believes it is a prayer to a god who is unlikely in the extreme to really exist. 

If the words mortal refer to non dragonlords will die if they blow this horn. Then how on earth do dragonlords survive the horn? They are not really any better than any other magic imbued person. They have magic in their blood but so do wargs and seers and green dreamers and many others. 

The horn sets you on fire from the inside out. Only someone who has fire inside them is surviving that. 

This isn't a safety net that takes advantage of what people believe about each other ie: those dragon lords are not like us mortal men they are gods who walk amongst us so I can't blow their horn and live it tells me so on the side. 

This is a real safety net that actually burns you up. And would burn Dany up just like it does the thrall cos she isn't fire proof. She survived the pyre because of a one of magical event; which many have worked out was MMD's singing being a protection spell that wanged off and protected Dany instead.  Aerion Brightflame was not fire proof from the inside either cos when he drank that wildfire he burnt from the inside out. Egg burned and his sons burned. Aerea was consumed from the inside by some strange fire magic or creature. Jon burnt his hand, Dany was burnt in the fighting pits. Rhaenyra was burnt by Sunfyre . Dragonlords have no immunity to fire. 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There seem to have been red priests in Valyria but they were apparently not exactly the majority religion there. Red priests blame the Valyrian elites for the Doom, and the fact that R'hllor is mainly worshiped by slaves in Volantis rather than the Old Blood strongly suggests this religion was never popular among Valyrian elites.

Am splitting this post here and will address this quote in the next post

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16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There seem to have been red priests in Valyria but they were apparently not exactly the majority religion there. Red priests blame the Valyrian elites for the Doom, and the fact that R'hllor is mainly worshiped by slaves in Volantis rather than the Old Blood strongly suggests this religion was never popular among Valyrian elites.

I never said the dragon lords worshipped R'hllor. Nor that they were the majority religion. We know from the world book that Valyria had a policy of religious freedom. But that the Dragon Lords themselves kept a pantheon of their own gods; however not taken too piously.  But the Red Priests were pretty numerous in Valyria and worshipped by the slave class. The Dragonlords despite not holding with Rh'llorism however did build the Red Temple of Volantis. Which tells us they were keen to facilitate the faith amongst the slave class. We do not after all have evidence of any grand temples built by dragon lords dedicated to any of the other myriad of cults which sprang up.  

The religion is based around fire and involves fire magic and it is run by and for slaves. I think it is quite plausible that the Valyrians created Fire Wights and used slaves who they made into fire wights for certain tasks. Such as the horn and also going deep into the fourteen flames a mortal man would soon perish under those conditions but a slave who has no need of water or air can slave away all day.  But if you create a magic which seems to make a person immortal and do not reveal the means by which you did that and there are language and class barriers between the people involved and you yourself are presenting yourself as god like. Yeah I can see a religion springing up around that magic and I think this may be what happened. I'm not saying for certain though as we haven't got enough information.

But we do know the dragon lords had a close relationship with the Rh'llorists in that they built them a huge and stunning temple.. Religious buildings are all about awe and wonder as a tool to persuade the masses to behave in the way the priests tell them to as it is gods will etc. Remember what I was saying earlier about religion as a tool of the nobility to keep the masses subjugated. In early Christianity religious power was tightly linked to the nobility. so perhaps the Dragon Lords encouraged R'hllorism as a means to assist in retaining control over the slaves? If you have the High Priest in your pocket you can influence those people. Just as we see the power Benerro is wielding in Volantis which is in danger of undermining the Old Bloods control of the city and in KL we see the High Sparrow wielding dangerous influence over the smallfolk and similar incidences in FaB too. Religion is a great tool so long as you are the one controlling it. I think at some point the Dragon Lords lost control of this useful tool. 

I've gone off on a massive tangent. But then you know I am guilty of doing that a lot. I hope you see my points though. Some ideas to consider and mull over. 

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, one thing that I was wrong and you (I think) were right is the new revelation that dragon eggs rather quickly turn to stone if they are removed from a hot environment (i.e. the Dragonmount, for instance). Dragons did thrive and multiply on Dragonstone because of the natural heat there. However, we do also have confirmation of dragons hatching elsewhere - Rhaena's Morning hatched in the Vale of Arryn, and we also know of dragon eggs hatching on Driftmark and in KL (both the Dragonpit and the Red Keep)

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Yeah, that was definitely something we differed on when we discussed how to hatch a dragon. I was really pleased with that little revelation in FaB as it indeed backed up what I was saying. But we do still have anomaly's and  this is why I want to collate everything we learnt about dragons, eggs, and hatching conditions we learnt from FaB. 

I still think that Dany's psychic bond type experience is our best bet for how to hatch a dragon. outside of volcanic ie: their natural, conditions. And I'd love to pull something together from what we learnt in FaB.

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That was due to the Old King being old and everybody was expecting him to die soon. If the succession is unclear and various parties have an interest to see their candidate succeed to the throne then the wishes of the monarch no longer have much weight. That's usually how such succession wars break out. There is no clear heir but various pretenders, etc.

There is no way the Valyrians different attitude towards women and power did not influence the suggestion that a woman could rule the 7 kingdoms or that the Andal faith of the seven influenced beliefs didn't influence the views of those who said they can not. That was all made abundantly clear in FaB. That there was a definite conflict between the Targaryen Women and the patriarchal culture of the Andals. Jaeharys  sold his female relatives out and it was the main source of conflict with Allysanne.  The question of whether a woman can rule would never have risen at all if the Targaryens didn't have their own Valyrian influenced culture.  And I am not saying Valyrians saw women as equal or anything that radical. But rather that FaB made it clear they had a very different attitude than the Andals do.

 

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd actually be very surprised if Dany's dragons could be controlled without riders. If that were possible then there would be no need for riders at all, would there?

 That is a very good point and yeah that puts that to bed. No need at all if one person can control multiple dragons. So are we back to the idea it is for the purpose of blood binding a line of dragons to a line of men? Hmm.  

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On 4/29/2019 at 10:59 PM, Platypus Rex said:

I don't recall these details off the top of my head.  But Tyrion has been stashing poison, and contemplating its use, since his King's Landing days, when he bent over backwards to frame himself for the murder of Joffrey.

Yet poison remains a woman's weapon. Penny will shroom someone with Tyrion's stash.

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Nice topic. 

The mushrooms seem very much like a Chekhov's Gun, so they are very likely to be used. It would be ironic if he feeds them to Illyrio, or anyone at his side.

I can't think of a way to tell who they are meant for though. 

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