Rant and Rave Without Repercussion End of The World Edition [Spoilers]

[darksellsword]

5 minutes ago, Dex drako said:

it comes for juvenile sexist view of what feminism is and a fundamental misunderstanding of how women think. what they're really confusing is hack writers pandering for market shares of a growing empowered female population with real feminist view. but that would take understanding and not blind anger .

this story line is trash because its badly writer and there is no other way to look at it.

You basically agreed with me . I was talking about D&D pandering to the 3rd wave feminist masses they imagine feel empowered by the shows all action female characters, but you had a kneejerk reaction based on your anger and emotions. I said nothing juvenile nor sexist. It was a carefully thoughtout observation.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

10 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

My apologies. I didn't mean to imply that all women would be happy with their changes or that women didn't have every right to see strong female characters in the story just that D&D appear to have lost the run of themselves in terms of having female characters in virtually every action scene now at the expense of story arcs that are well thought out and foreshawdowed . 

Thank you, I appreciate the apology. 

 

7 minutes ago, Dex drako said:

it comes for juvenile sexist view of what feminism is and a fundamental misunderstanding of how women think. what they're really confusing is hack writers pandering for market shares of a growing empowered female population with real feminist view. but that would take understanding and not blind anger .

this story line is trash because its badly writer and there is no other way to look at it.

That is a terrific explanation, even more so because it is so succinct.  Thank you. 

[Ice Queen]

25 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

 I can remember in their own show at some point a character makes a statement along the lines of 'the smallfolk don't care about this lord or another fighting they care about their harvests etc' Why would we the smallfolk care about Jon being king at this point. I'd support Dany in her claim, at least she provided the dragons and the army

Which were completely not needed in the fight, apparently. 

[sweetsunray]

41 minutes ago, divica said:

The problem then is how are more ww made?

Because the NK touches some babies (why only some?) and they become ww is kind of nonsense!

Another thing that wasn t explained! Why aren t there more ww? Do people need something special to become a ww?

Ice "grows" and we are told they look like each other's twins.

In the books we get the NK story: how he gave his seed and soul to the Corpse Queen. It's parallel to Stannis giving his seed and shadow to Mel to make shadows (that look like Stannis). It's parallel to Varys getting his chopped off and burned to raise a blue flame. It's parallel to the Unsullied burning their bits on brazier and help their warrior goddess grow in strength. It's parallel to Dany giving her son and husband and MMG to the fire to crack dragon eggs and birth dragons.

So, there's some magic required, but the Others have that magic on their own already and can do all sorts of things with ice. They're suggested to be kind of hive minded as well. So my guess is taht with the babies they do some sort of seed and blood sacrfice to give their grown ice man a shadow of a soul to animate it. And the master-mind is more spirit or force than body (a blue flame).

Any hints of the children's involvement or relation is that they fear Others, they always protected themselves against them, they are not the ones who'd do any sacrificing.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, George did not confirm it. Someone asked in an interview whether there was a relationship between the Others and the Children, and George said, "possibly, possibly... I will get into that more in later books." While the interviewer is condering an "alliance" relationship, George never confirms that. And in fact, Will's shivering and hugging the tree and staying silent out of fear in the prologue sort of gives it away. You can argue with circumstantial evidence that the Children knew of the existence of the Others (it's why they used obsidian and lived high up in trees), and stayed mum about them, even after the Pact between humans and children (that already stood for centuries or several thousand of years). And the information that George gives us about the Others in those 2 scenes makes quite clear they are an other form of life, another species. Own ice-like speech, tall and elongated, having a density that enables them to move on fresh snow without leaving imprints, etc... George compared them to the Sidhe to Patterson when making illustrations.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Ah, see, this snippet is 2012 before the show's revelations on the Children creating WW.  That's the only problem with it all.   I do think there are more direct words on this since the show's BS which aired in 2016.  Even if the Children created the WW, it doesn't/wouldn't make the story the mess that the show has.  I can't say I know all the quotes that came out after the 2106 show stuff.  I just seem to remember an acknowledgment in some manner that the Children created a weapon to save themselves that turned out really bad, for everyone. 

[sweetsunray]

33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

My apologies then.

That's alright

[Lady Fevre Dream]

@sweetsunray

I'd like to be wrong about the show being accurate on the creation of WW, but I just have a nagging memory from season 6 time period, LOL  I could be wrong.  If someone finds something on George saying no, it's not true, I'd be glad.  I'd be glad if it's just the Ds BSing and being sneaky with their wording.  I don't remember all the details, maybe I'm confusing it with Hold The Door? 

[darksellsword]

I don't recall anyone raising this issue but seeing as all of the Dothraki warriors died , does this mean that Dothraki culture has been all but wiped out? It appears the vast majority of Dothraki came to Westeros with Daenerys. I'm assuming they left their women and small children behind but without a Dothraki khalasar to defend and provide for them they would starve, they arent farmers or merchants so they would have to assimilate into another culture to survive.

[divica]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Ice "grows" and we are told they look like each other's twins.

In the books we get the NK story: how he gave his seed and soul to the Corpse Queen. It's parallel to Stannis giving his seed and shadow to Mel to make shadows (that look like Stannis). It's parallel to Varys getting his chopped off and burned to raise a blue flame. It's parallel to the Unsullied burning their bits on brazier and help their warrior goddess grow in strength. It's parallel to Dany giving her son and husband and MMG to the fire to crack dragon eggs and birth dragons.

So, there's some magic required, but the Others have that magic on their own already and can do all sorts of things with ice. They're suggested to be kind of hive minded as well. So my guess is taht with the babies they do some sort of seed and blood sacrfice to give their grown ice man a shadow of a soul to animate it. And the master-mind is more spirit or force than body (a blue flame).

Any hints of the children's involvement or relation is that they fear Others, they always protected themselves against them, they are not the ones who'd do any sacrificing.

just saying that stabing a man with dragonglass is very difrent from giving him all the powers the ww seem to have. Reanimating the dead, stronger and faster bodies, frozen bodies, the ability to replicate themselves, some mind (telephaty?) powers...

I think it starts to sound too much for the cotf...

[divica]

Just now, darksellsword said:

I don't recall anyone raising this issue but seeing as all of the Dothraki warriors died , does this mean that Dothraki culture has been all but wiped out? It appears the vast majority of Dothraki came to Westeros with Daenerys. I'm assuming they left their women and small children behind but without a Dothraki khalasar to defend and provide for them they would starve, they arent farmers or merchants so they would have to assimulate into another culture to survive.

Did they have a culture anymore? Danny basically said their culture sucks and they should do as she says and they did...

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

just saying that stabing a man with dragonglass is very difrent from giving him all the powers the ww seem to have. Reanimating the dead, stronger and faster bodies, frozen bodies, the ability to replicate themselves, some mind (telephaty?) powers...

I think it starts to sound too much for the cotf...

Well, the CotF warred humans for centuries with dragonglass before making the Pact. And all of sudden it makes the first Other?

But you are right: stabbing a man with dragonglass giving them all sorts of powers is BS. It's a typical D&D "let's do this... looks cool", but makes 0 sense.

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

@sweetsunray

I'd like to be wrong about the show being accurate on the creation of WW, but I just have a nagging memory from season 6 time period, LOL  I could be wrong.  If someone finds something on George saying no, it's not true, I'd be glad.  I'd be glad if it's just the Ds BSing and being sneaky with their wording.  I don't remember all the details, maybe I'm confusing it with Hold The Door? 

It was all the same episode.  But, I am absolutely sure that the showrunners are incapable of coming up with something like the children creating the WW....in fact, one way I can tell it was from GRRM, is because the show dropped it, then ignored it.  It was one of their boxes that they checked.  I have no idea how they can possibly wrap this up now, that they have gutted the whole WW story and turned it into a 10 cent version of LOTR, and have there be any meaning.   Nothing is indeed nothing.

 

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

@sweetsunray

I'd like to be wrong about the show being accurate on the creation of WW, but I just have a nagging memory from season 6 time period, LOL  I could be wrong.  If someone finds something on George saying no, it's not true, I'd be glad.  I'd be glad if it's just the Ds BSing and being sneaky with their wording.  I don't remember all the details, maybe I'm confusing it with Hold The Door? 

D&D only confirmed Shyreen burning (and we know that's gonna be set up and executed by other characters than the show gave us) and HODOR = "Hold the Door" and they went like "No, shit! Wow" when George revealed them this.

[Dex drako]

3 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

You basically agreed with me . I was talking about D&D pandering to the 3rd wave feminist masses they imagine feel empowered by the shows all action female characters, but you had a kneejerk reaction based on your anger and emotions. I said nothing juvenile nor sexist. It was a carefully thoughtout observation.

these are not 3rd wave feminist messages they are the twisted fun house versions of 3rd wave feminist messages you find on idiots spewing on red pill/misogynistic websites. what we're seeing is what a sexist male writer would think feminists would because they've never asked a real woman what they'd want to see. take sansa and how in the show she's a cold hearted Bitch that rejects her femininity and dresses in black leather, that not a feminist ideal, that is literally the "all feminist are anti male bitches" sexist stereotype

i call it Juvenal because its not based on factual understanding of feminism and its views. but instead you based you view on a gut feeling and propaganda made to discredit the movement.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It was all the same episode.  But, I am absolutely sure that the showrunners are incapable of coming up with something like the children creating the WW....in fact, one way I can tell it was from GRRM, is because the show dropped it, then ignored it.  It was one of their boxes that they checked.  I have no idea how they can possibly wrap this up now, that they have gutted the whole WW story and turned it into a 10 cent version of LOTR, and have there be any meaning.   Nothing is indeed nothing.

 

Sure they can't come up with that.... but it was one of the theories that got traction for years before S6, and D&D are good at googling stuff.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, the CotF warred humans for centuries with dragonglass before making the Pact. And all of sudden it makes the first Other?

If they were losing the war I can understand them wanting to make the others. However we need a much better explanation about how they went out of control and how they were made and how they replicate themselves.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

It was all the same episode.  But, I am absolutely sure that the showrunners are incapable of coming up with something like the children creating the WW....in fact, one way I can tell it was from GRRM, is because the show dropped it, then ignored it.  It was one of their boxes that they checked.  I have no idea how they can possibly wrap this up now, that they have gutted the whole WW story and turned it into a 10 cent version of LOTR, and have there be any meaning.   Nothing is indeed nothing.

 

You have many good points.  They just don't care about this end of the story.  Arya's character is abused just for the sake of "SHOCK AND AWE" cause that is their element, shocking, huh?  Just like they didn't want Drogon saving Dany from the Dothraki, the ruin more story.  All they've ever cared about, I guess, is Cersei?  WOW  They don't even try to make 'creative sense' anymore.  Just SHOCK AND AWE!!  

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

You have many good points.  They just don't care about this end of the story.  Arya's character is abused just for the sake of "SHOCK AND AWE" cause that is their element, shocking, huh?  Just like they didn't want Drogon saving Dany from the Dothraki, the ruin more story.  All they've ever cared about, I guess, is Cersei?  WOW  They don't even try to make 'creative sense' anymore.  Just SHOCK AND AWE!!  

The worst thing is, based on the cast comments, we have many more deaths coming, and so those will be at the hands of Cersei, who should already be dead or a in a black cell since last season.  

[Ninerings]

3 minutes ago, Dex drako said:

these are not 3rd wave feminist messages they are the twisted fun house versions of 3rd wave feminist messages you find on idiots spewing on red pill/misogynistic websites. what we're seeing is what a sexist male writer would think feminists would because they've never asked a real woman what they'd want to see. take sansa and how in the show she's a cold hearted Bitch that rejects her femininity and dresses in black leather, that not a feminist ideal, that is literally the "all feminist are anti male bitches" sexist stereotype

i call it Juvenal because its not based on factual understanding of feminism and its views. but instead you based you view on a gut feeling and propaganda made to discredit the movement.

Oh Christ. Take this nonsense to Facebook. 

[Lady Fevre Dream]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

If they were losing the war I can understand them wanting to make the others. However we need a much better explanation about how they went out of control and how they were made and how they replicate themselves.

See, that's the thing.  It's not the end of the world if that is the beginning of the others.  After all, the Children also supposedly broke the Arm of Dorne, right?  That's some serious magic.  Even if the Ds were right about the ORIGIN, doesn't mean any other detail matches.  It's not the end of the world if that is the origin.  I'm not looking for three year old quotes, though.  I don't expect The Citadel seems to have the show/book deviations over the years.  Does it?  I just hope if there are quotes that anyone knows of a direct yes or no or such, they tell us.