Rant and Rave Without Repercussion End of The World Edition [Spoilers]

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

1 hour ago, Idrinkanddontknowanything said:

So I have been reading for a while and have never joined in but after the last episode... ugh. I was so disappointed. 

I can except that they strayed from the source material and I can accept that Arya killed the night king.... if they actually told a coherent story!!! 

I agree with so much of what everyone has been saying, it was too dark, there was no logic behind a lot of decisions, Wtf was the point of Bran (the human library??) etc

i have never watched a behind the episode before but I watched the one posted above cause I wanted to listen to what D and D had to say about their decision to have Arya kill the night king. For years Jons story has been about his battle with the white walkers and the night king, trying to get the rest of Westeros to understand the threat, to try and protect the north and the realm.... but they said it couldn’t be Jon who kills the night king because.... it didnt feel “right”?? What?? Why?? Arya has had  no back story with the night king, no experience with the white walkers at all until they showed up in winterfell but she had to be the one to kill the night king because.... reasons?! Ugh 

i saw endgame and I won’t go into any spoilers but the ending wasn’t necessarily shocking or surprising.... but it was so satisfying! Having Jon kill the night king would have been so much more satisfying I think. It would have been payoff for all the build up over 8 seasons! 

I stupidly have hope that they will still turn this around in the last 3 episodes but I kind of doubt it. So many unanswered questions. 

I agree - their justification for arya and not jon....it is so weak...they really wrecked it for sure....I mean they are paid gazillions..not really sure how they will close jons arc off...kill him sacrificing himself cos he has always done that...

still moving forwards

[TNTW]

Sansa or Tyrion could have been heroes of the crypts. She had dragonglass dagger. Give it to Tyrion, pull it out sooner, something. When undead Starks first emerging, they would have been pretty easy to take care of. It bothers me that they all just freaked out and hid. Tyrion has proven himself to be no craven. Yet, when Sansa pulled out dagger, he did nothing....

[Dragons Are Real]

13 hours ago, Zorral said:

What goes up on HBO stays up on HBO forever, or until climate change kills the internet.

 

I wish that were true.  I'd love to watch 1st and Ten  again.

I've honestly hit the point with the show where I don't particularly care what happens, but I almost hope everyone dies.  The Ds love of Cersei will likely leave her ruling a dead kingdom, all our heroes slain.  And I'm not real sure I'll even be upset about it.

[RhaenysBee]

6 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

 

I've honestly hit the point with the show where I don't particularly care what happens, but I almost hope everyone dies. 

My feelings exactly. 

I mean the show is entirely irredeemable at this point. Nothing they do will make any sense whatsoever as it is a result of the fuck up they call Episode 3. Sure, have Cersei rule the world or whatever else, it’s not like anything makes any sense or matters in any way anymore. 

[Corvinus85]

Well I was rooting for the Night King to begin with, but that's over. Maybe the red comet will do another pass, and this time it won't miss.

[Gianna Dorenberg]

2 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Those Inside the Episode segments have evolved over the years from them mostly just talking about the story they were adapting (for the most part), into an exercise in ego and arrogance, blatant misunderstandings of the source material, and a bit of proof that they just wanted this over with as soon as possible.  Sometime in season 5 I had to stop watching them, for the most part, just for my own protection.  These guys say things like 'Needle is REVENGE' not, as GRRM wrote, "Jon Snow's smile.'  They also spouted the crazy phrase:  Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen.  That little beauty was about the initial meeting of Dany and Tyrion, but it's a telling point for all they choose to do.  I decided to watch these aggravating segments again this year to be sure I had the full picture of the mess they've made. 

I just wanted to thank you for your first post and hope you'll post more the coming weeks if you want.  I wish I could say there was something I even hope for going forward in these last 3 episodes, but I just want this over, LOL  I can use already published sample chapters of TWOW and my imagination for some type of ending.  If I get more from GRRM, great, if not.......then not.  I'm not sure what to do with the Ds mess in relation to the entirety of the story, other than realize:  Creatively......it doesn't make sense, so it didn't happen.  Not really, LOL 

It's clear that you have more knowledge and experience on this but I never watched D&D talk, I read a lot of negative things about them but I always disregarded that as people just being ''haters''. Taking it to the extreme. I saw the issues in S7 but they weren't major issues for me, so I forgave them. Now after EP3 I am no longer blind. I see the things you guys/girls were saying all along. I have seen the lord of light.

But I watched an interview of D&D recently. And MY GOD. The smugness. It was so off putting.

[Zorral]

12 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

The sun-wheel  – closely associated with the swastika, which is a simplification of it – is used in many ancient religions. The Georgian borjgali and the Armenian arevakhach are variants of the same, and in all those cultures (as far as I'm aware)  is an ancient symbol of power, holiness, prosperity, continuity, luck, and fire (the life force).  Even it's name in the different traditions points to the opposite of what the WW of GOT represent. 

In Norse/Viking religion, the wheel/disc/swastika became increasingly associated with Thor and was worn as an amulet and carved on tombstones as a symbol of both continuity and luck. it was also often carved on objects to imbue them with sanctity or simply luck. A blacksmith, for example, would have a swastika/sun-wheel carved on his hammer to not only sanctify it for his work but to make the object lucky; and a warrior in his shield as to bring protection and good luck.

The fact that in Got they made this a symbol to be used by the White Walkers (who themselves are the representation of dark, cold and ice, just the opposite of the sun-life force), and that the materials for their "art" were a bunch of corpses, dead animals /people, is a contradiction.

Unless these are the WW mocking the living, using their "life" symbol just for the opposite,  and saying "f**k you!".

Or, it has no meaning, they just saw it in some Ragnarok story,  and just said "wouldn't be cool that we put these on screen?"

I know all this about that symbol / pattern that one does see in some form throughout the world's cultures.

But none of it works within the teensy tiny itsy bitsy we supposedly know about the Others.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Dragons Are Real said:

14 hours ago, Zorral said:

What goes up on HBO stays up on HBO forever, or until climate change kills the internet.

 

I wish that were true.  I'd love to watch 1st and Ten  again.

HBO Now -- it's all there.  You can watch whenever you like: pause, quit, fast forward, go back.

[Vuron]

2 hours ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

I agree - their justification for arya and not jon....it is so weak...they really wrecked it for sure....I mean they are paid gazillions..not really sure how they will close jons arc off...kill him sacrificing himself cos he has always done that...

still moving forwards

I actually have to agree with D&D on this one.  As much as people on this board like to put down common fantasy tropes, having a battle between 100k+ living and dead come down to a 1v1 fight between the big bad and big good of the series would have been the worst of all.  That's why I agree that Jon shouldn't be the one that killed the NK.

The PtWP prophecy never says the he/she will actually kill anyone and Jon is still the hero of the story.  Without him personally gathering together all the forces he did, against all odds, the world would have been lost.

I also think Arya had to kill one of the main villains or her story would have been meaningless.  You can't show her learning/training to be a killer for 7 seasons to not have her kill a major player.  Having her entire arc revolving around killing the Freys would have been meaningless and I think Jaime or Tyrion have to kill Cercei.

[Cas Stark]

13 minutes ago, Vuron said:

I actually have to agree with D&D on this one.  As much as people on this board like to put down common fantasy tropes, having a battle between 100k+ living and dead come down to a 1v1 fight between the big bad and big good of the series would have been the worst of all.  That's why I agree that Jon shouldn't be the one that killed the NK.

The PtWP prophecy never says the he/she will actually kill anyone and Jon is still the hero of the story.  Without him personally gathering together all the forces he did, against all odds, the world would have been lost.

I also think Arya had to kill one of the main villains or her story would have been meaningless.  You can't show her learning/training to be a killer for 7 seasons to not have her kill a major player.  Having her entire arc revolving around killing the Freys would have been meaningless and I think Jaime or Tyrion have to kill Cercei.

If the prince that was promised does nothing, isn't even a part of the final battle with the NK, why would that even be a prophecy?  If the prophecy is to have any meaning then Arya has to be the princess that was promised, even though, of course, this doesn't really fit.

I don't even see how Jon is still a hero.  Everything he has said and done since season 5 is wrong and has backfired.  There was no need of armies and dragons and tens of thousands to die.  They could have set a trap for the NK with a handful of people and the same result.

A better choice if the show wished to deny Jon the kill because it was too predictable, would have been to have him at least in the godswood, trying to save Bran and get to the NK and failing, then Arya can come in with an assist, sidelining him the entire battle where he is reduced to yelling at a dead dragon is turning him into a joke.

[darmody]

35 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

It's clear that you have more knowledge and experience on this but I never watched D&D talk, I read a lot of negative things about them but I always disregarded that as people just being ''haters''. Taking it to the extreme. I saw the issues in S7 but they weren't major issues for me, so I forgave them. Now after EP3 I am no longer blind. I see the things you guys/girls were saying all along. I have seen the lord of light.

But I watched an interview of D&D recently. And MY GOD. The smugness. It was so off putting.

The main problems of seasons 5-7 were twofold, I believe. 

1). they went last book material and both didn't know what to do with the dangling plots for which they had no conclusion (even if they knew where the show had to ultimately end)

2). they didn't know how to deal with those parts of the books they left out but are intertwined with the ongoing plot

D&D's solution, in my opinion, was to simplify and stall. Bide their time between Big Shocks, do a lot of action set-pieces (which take up screentime and don't require dialogue), and come up with absolutely ridiculous plots because something has to happen to get the finale. Hence the nonsensical Danny/Cersei war, the Wight Hunt, and the Scooby-Doo plot at Winterfell leading to the demise of Little Finger. Danny had a habit of screwing up slowly, then suddenly solving everything with fire.

References to earlier, better seasons takes up time. As do character reunions, which are basically references to the past. 

This season, they don't have the luxury of wasting time. The pieces are in place. Now the important things have to happen. You can't come back next season and being Jon back from the dead to do it better. 

Before, there was always the hope they could make up for it. It is exceedingly unlikely the forthcoming three episodes will redeem the story. Now we know they didn't know where they were going (except in the narrow sense of whatever limited information George Martin have them), nor how to get there. 

[divica]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If the prince that was promised does nothing, isn't even a part of the final battle with the NK, why would that even be a prophecy?  If the prophecy is to have any meaning then Arya has to be the princess that was promised, even though, of course, this doesn't really fit.

I don't even see how Jon is still a hero.  Everything he has said and done since season 5 is wrong and has backfired.  There was no need of armies and dragons and tens of thousands to die.  They could have set a trap for the NK with a handful of people and the same result.

A better choice if the show wished to deny Jon the kill because it was too predictable, would have been to have him at least in the godswood, trying to save Bran and get to the NK and failing, then Arya can come in with an assist, sidelining him the entire battle where he is reduced to yelling at a dead dragon is turning him into a joke.

I think the simplest best solution would be having Jon and the NK fight in the godswood, Jon harms the NK, the NK raises the dead to fight Jon for him while he kills bran, and then a wight stabs the NK in the back. The wight takes her face and it is Arya. 

It would make sense for everybody involved... If you want they could even have bran warging some dead near the NK and Jon in order to stop them from interfering

[darmody]

29 minutes ago, Vuron said:

I actually have to agree with D&D on this one.  As much as people on this board like to put down common fantasy tropes, having a battle between 100k+ living and dead come down to a 1v1 fight between the big bad and big good of the series would have been the worst of all.  That's why I agree that Jon shouldn't be the one that killed the NK.

The PtWP prophecy never says the he/she will actually kill anyone and Jon is still the hero of the story.  Without him personally gathering together all the forces he did, against all odds, the world would have been lost.

I also think Arya had to kill one of the main villains or her story would have been meaningless.  You can't show her learning/training to be a killer for 7 seasons to not have her kill a major player.  Having her entire arc revolving around killing the Freys would have been meaningless and I think Jaime or Tyrion have to kill Cercei.

Dude, she killed Little Finger, the man most responsible for the War of Five Kings. She also killed House Frey (Along with Tywin and Roose Bolton responsible for the Red Wedding.) Not merely Lord Frey, but the entire house. 

With the Waif, Meryn Trant, and so forth, that's more than 50 people at least. Throw in the Ice Demons and the zombie army, and it could be a million for all I know. 

If by "main villain" you mean only Cersei or the Night King...well, she isn't the right character to kill either. But I don't think anything in the show told us she HAD to kill a main baddie in the final season. 

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

I think the simplest best solution would be having Jon and the NK fight in the godswood, Jon harms the NK, the NK raises the dead to fight Jon for him while he kills bran, and then a wight stabs the NK in the back. The wight takes her face and it is Arya. 

It would make sense for everybody involved... If you want they could even have bran warging some dead near the NK and Jon in order to stop them from interfering

Any solution where Jon is in the godswood and is somehow involved with an assist in getting the NK killed would work.  This is so fucking simple it is astounding that the show didn't do this...it keeps Jon's heroic arc intact, and still offers a 'surprising' badass moment for Arya.  

And Jesus Christ, why doesn't Bran say something to this guy?  For fuck's sake.  I realize they have silence so as not to show more of their poor understanding of the story...but, wouldn't Bran want to stall for time?  Or say something to help the audience understand the NK goals? Something? For the audience?  This was Bran's penultimate moment that supposedly has been thousands of years in the making...and same blank stare we've seen since Meera dragged him out of the cave.  Awful.

[Gianna Dorenberg]

35 minutes ago, Vuron said:

I actually have to agree with D&D on this one.  As much as people on this board like to put down common fantasy tropes, having a battle between 100k+ living and dead come down to a 1v1 fight between the big bad and big good of the series would have been the worst of all.  That's why I agree that Jon shouldn't be the one that killed the NK.

The PtWP prophecy never says the he/she will actually kill anyone and Jon is still the hero of the story.  Without him personally gathering together all the forces he did, against all odds, the world would have been lost.

I also think Arya had to kill one of the main villains or her story would have been meaningless.  You can't show her learning/training to be a killer for 7 seasons to not have her kill a major player.  Having her entire arc revolving around killing the Freys would have been meaningless and I think Jaime or Tyrion have to kill Cercei.

The hero of the story are the women. Jon is one of the most useless characters. 

Let's recap. Jon comes back from the dead, if he didn't Dany wouldn't have lost her dragons and the wall wouldn't have fallen. Then Jon comes up with a shitty battle plan and loses vs the Boltons, Sansa saves his ass. Then Jon goes beyond the wall and again, Dany saves his ass. Losing a dragon because of him. Then Jon comes up with the rest with one of the worst battle plans ever and would have lost again but Arya saves his ass. 

Arya's entire arc is to take revenge for the things done to her family. She killed the Freys and took revenge on the Red Wedding massacre. Meaningless ?  Does she really have to kill a major character for her or any other characters arc to be useless ? There's onla Cersei left, who gets to kill her ? Jamie, Tyrion, Jon, Sansa etc. so automatically 3 of them are going to be meaningless ? Come on. Let's recap again. Who did Jon kill as a major character ? Answer: NO ONE.  At least Arya filled her character arc by avenging the people who destroyed her family with the red wedding. Cersei still left. Jons entire arc was the NK and the army of the dead. And he didn't get to do anything besides come up with a horrible battle plan. As always.

[Dragons Are Real]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

HBO Now -- it's all there.  You can watch whenever you like: pause, quit, fast forward, go back.

I have HBO Now.  1st and Ten hasn't ever been there.  Unless they just added it in the last month or so.  I usually check about every three months.

In more topical news:

I'm beginning to see cracks in the show apologists today.  Those that originally said episode 3 is amazing are starting to say that if we don't get any further exposition on the Night King, the entire show may actually be a waste.

Of course, some others are saying that they have complete faith in the show because it always follows through on every promise.  I'm trying to determine what show they think they're watching, because it can't be GoT.

[Vuron]

20 minutes ago, darmody said:

Dude, she killed Little Finger, the man most responsible for the War of Five Kings. She also killed House Frey (Along with Tywin and Roose Bolton responsible for the Red Wedding.) Not merely Lord Frey, but the entire house. 

With the Waif, Meryn Trant, and so forth, that's more than 50 people at least. Throw in the Ice Demons and the zombie army, and it could be a million for all I know. 

If by "main villain" you mean only Cersei or the Night King...well, she isn't the right character to kill either. But I don't think anything in the show told us she HAD to kill a main baddie in the final season. 

I wouldn't say she killed Littlefinger.  She was simply acting as an executioner for Sansa, which anyone in the room could have done.  You dont need 5 years of training to slit the throat of a defenseless man kneeling on the floor.

I might agree that killing the Freys could have been the point of her arc if it had even been mentioned, but it seems like all of Westeros doesn't even seem to be aware that they're gone.  

[Ser Quork]

1 hour ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

It's clear that you have more knowledge and experience on this but I never watched D&D talk, I read a lot of negative things about them but I always disregarded that as people just being ''haters''. Taking it to the extreme. I saw the issues in S7 but they weren't major issues for me, so I forgave them. Now after EP3 I am no longer blind. I see the things you guys/girls were saying all along. I have seen the lord of light.

But I watched an interview of D&D recently. And MY GOD. The smugness. It was so off putting.

I usually love "making of" programmes, especially ones with VFX - but these are unbearable because of D&D.

[Vuron]

28 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

The hero of the story are the women. Jon is one of the most useless characters. 

Let's recap. Jon comes back from the dead, if he didn't Dany wouldn't have lost her dragons and the wall wouldn't have fallen. Then Jon comes up with a shitty battle plan and loses vs the Boltons, Sansa saves his ass. Then Jon goes beyond the wall and again, Dany saves his ass. Losing a dragon because of him. Then Jon comes up with the rest with one of the worst battle plans ever and would have lost again but Arya saves his ass. 

Arya's entire arc is to take revenge for the things done to her family. She killed the Freys and took revenge on the Red Wedding massacre. Meaningless ?  Does she really have to kill a major character for her or any other characters arc to be useless ? There's onla Cersei left, who gets to kill her ? Jamie, Tyrion, Jon, Sansa etc. so automatically 3 of them are going to be meaningless ? Come on. Let's recap again. Who did Jon kill as a major character ? Answer: NO ONE.  At least Arya filled her character arc by avenging the people who destroyed her family with the red wedding. Cersei still left. Jons entire arc was the NK and the army of the dead. And he didn't get to do anything besides come up with a horrible battle plan. As always.

I think you might have misunderstood or I wasn't completely clear...

I'm not saying Arya is meaningless, but from a book and show standpoint, she has to kill someone more important than the Freys.  Arya is one of the most heavily featured characters in the books and most of her time is spent outside of Westeros.  There has to be more of a payoff for spending all this time on her development.  If not, it would be like Dany's arc if she never made it back to Westeros.  GRRM is setting her up for something big.

Now Jon.... the PtWP prophecy talks about leading the battle against the forces of Darkness.  Jon is, absolutely, the leader of the fight against the NK.  As Davos told Dany, he was the 1st to make allies of wildlings, became the leader of the Watch, king of the north, and even died.  He gave up being lord commander, gave up his crown, and gave his life, all to assemble the greatest force the world had ever seen to fight against an enemy that most still dont believe even exists.

We had northmen, wildlings, dothraki, unsullied, dragons, and people from the south all assembled because of Jon's actions.  He's been stupid at times, isn't a great strategist, and doesn't think long term, but he is a good recruiter.

[BlackLightning]

18 minutes ago, Dragons Are Real said:

Of course, some others are saying that they have complete faith in the show because it always follows through on every promise.  I'm trying to determine what show they think they're watching, because it can't be GoT. 

And to think people thought and still think that Game of Thrones was the best television show in the world, superior in every way to The Walking Dead.

Um...The Walking Dead has its own problems but it has never ever made the same narrative mistakes seen in Game of Thrones.