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So what does Jon Snow do now??

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If it is this way in the show it has to be this way in the books, too, doesn't it?. And why the surprise, wasn't it obvious that Cersei would be the big bad since, well, she decided not to support them against the Lich King?

But that Cersei is *never* going to be a competent enough threat for the great finale of ASoIaF is equally clear, no? Euron might, though. In the books he is the greatest mortal threat we have seen so far. And he will likely hook up with Cersei, so if she sticks around till the end she certainly will remain a nuisance until her death.

Personally, I have always believed that Cersei is going to make it into A Dream of Spring. Similar to how she was in the show, I doubt she will do anything to help Daenerys and Jon fight the Others. Because of GRRM's love for the post-big battle "Scouring of the Shire" part of LOTR, I think she will be making several power plays once everyone's back is turned. And she'll be doing it with Euron's help...

We'll be needing a POV down there.

But I don't think Cersei will make it that long. I think Euron will turn on her and kill her in the books (i.e. Falia Flowers) for whatever sick twisted reason he comes up with. Maybe a human sacrifice? Cersei does in fact have king's blood

 

7 hours ago, D-Shiznit said:

If Jon, after everything Cersei has done, pushes for a deal with her, then he should just do the realm a favor and off himself. That level of stupidity is just flat out dangerous.

This!

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They will win the war together and then they will rule together if they both live. If one or both of them die it really doesn't matter because if Cersei or Euron or the Gregor zombie or Qyburn or the Golden Company kill any of them it will be utterly meaningless. Neither Jon nor Dany have any connection with those people in the books, meaning such show deaths would be utterly devoid of meaning.

Chances are pretty high, I think, that Dany and Jon have their 'big moment' overcoming the fake tension when she has won the Iron Throne and realizes that she doesn't want it as much as she wants Jon. So she will offer it to him and then they will decide to rule jointly. End of story.

What did you expect? From the moment they decided to leave Cersei alive and on the fucking throne with her not helping them fight the zombies it was clear that she would be the final boss. Who else?

And I'm not sure the books will end it on the fight against the Others. Yes, that will the grand finale, but there might be some clean-up coming afterwards, sort of like the Scouring of the Shire in LotR. If Euron or Cersei or Littlefinger or some other shitty people survive the coming battles in the books and deliberately decide to stay out of the Others war, keeping their strength back (or only partially back) then they will be able try to stab the victorious leaders of mankind in the back. And this is a story George might intend to tell. 

Not in the ridiculous way in the show, of course, but in some fashion.

That the show doesn't even remotely accurately reflect the KL plot can be drawn from George's old quote after Tommen took the throne that multiple people are going to sit the Iron Throne before the end - but the show just gave us Cersei. And it doesn't count if Cersei is toppled and we then go immediately to whoever is on the chair in the end.

This. GRRM definitely likes/models some of his stories/ideas after LOTR. I see the battle with the Others being the main epic finale of the story, but yes, his "bittersweet" ending will have to deal with them cleaning up small things like who sits on the throne, because after facing death and what that fight presumably entails, fighting for an uncomfortable chair doesn't seem as important. So Jon/Dany/whomever may sit on the throne, but it's "empty" feeling.

I wonder if this is what GRRM told D&D and they just took some short notes that said, "WW first, then Throne battle," and just filled in the rest themselves.

Also, I hope this means in the books there is no "night king" like in the show. That is it a more challenging fight then "cut off the head"

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Book Jon is one of my favorite characters, easily in my top 3

Show Jon however is just lame and boring, the only good thing about him = the fight scenes.

He has none of Jon's book personality, he's an empty shell most of the time, barely react to anything, has no resolve, can't take decisions on his own, is too submissive and passive.

They should  have killed him, have him fight the NK one on one in an epic battle and die, Dany will sit on the Throne, that's her storyline, D&D have shown they're predictable and I don't see them turning Dany into a villain at all. The only reason Jon is kept alive is for them to make a cheesy romance between him and Dany (even though Books Jon would feel disgusted by her just as he was disgusted by Alester Florent for letting his own brother being burnt alive)

 

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Fans like to say that Martin is anti-war, but he isn't. He's anti-unnecessary war. He's said that there are some wars such as WWII where there is a very clear villain who needs to be stopped.

ASOIAF often demonstrates that the cruelty of man far outstrips the cruelty of nature.

We mourn when nature takes its death toll, but ultimately we can bear the loss because we know that there is a degree to which the conflict with nature is unavoidable. Nature's cruelty is not deliberate or personal, it's incidental. A wolf is as happy to eat a woman as a man, a goat as a child, and he won't make it a point to inflict more pain upon one than the other. As competitors ourselves, we know that, at the end of the day, we have the same motivations as the creatures that compete with us for primacy, and so there is a kinship in our conflict. If you ever feel that nature has betrayed you, the only reason you feel that way is because you weren't paying close enough attention to nature. Nature does what it has always done.

The horrors that people inflict on other people are far more difficult for us to bear. Why is it said that the kinslayer is accursed? What is it, exactly, that compels us to crucify one another rather than beheading? At the root of it, man vs man is betrayal. So that's why it stings in a way that nature doesn't. Each person possesses the body, mind and heart that constitute a detailed map of his own vulnerability. And so each person possesses an intimate understanding of the vulnerability of other people. Much of the suffering we inflict upon one another is completely over the top and unnecessary.

The last war was always going to be man vs man. Nature simply places upon man the pressures necessary to reveal the best and worst in man. Jorah, Edd, Melisandre, Lyanna and many more are among those who showed us the best. Now it's time for the remainder to show us the worst.

All that said, I am disappointed that the Others do not seem to have done a very good job at placing the pressures necessary upon mankind to reveal the worst of man. But there is still time and we'll see what happens next.

I thought, or perhaps hoped, that the Others, being part nature and part man, might have had motivations or a plan of attack more sinister than what nature can normally produce. To target the weirwood trees, mankind's memory, seemed to demonstrate a greater understanding of man's vulnerability, but by itself it felt lacking and impersonal. The weirwoods are not much of a loss to the characters because the memories in the weirwoods don't seem particularly important to the characters. Only one character can even see the planet's memories and he isn't sharing them with the other people anyway.

It's hard to put my finger on what exactly is the root of this feeling of let-down regarding the conflict with the WW in the show. Did I want them to be more sympathetic? I think their origin story is sympathetic. It rings with the cyclical violence of the story. Mankind was cruel to the Children in the past and now it has cycled back around to mankind. Did I need to get a closer look at the cruelty that the Children suffered at the hands of man? I don't think so. We can't go back to re-experience history for the purpose of developing sympathy, so we must produce our sympathy by imagining the history. I'll think on it more.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If it is this way in the show it has to be this way in the books, too, doesn't it?. And why the surprise, wasn't it obvious that Cersei would be the big bad since, well, she decided not to support them against the Lich King?

But that Cersei is *never* going to be a competent enough threat for the great finale of ASoIaF is equally clear, no? Euron might, though. In the books he is the greatest mortal threat we have seen so far. And he will likely hook up with Cersei, so if she sticks around till the end she certainly will remain a nuisance until her death.

The show is called Game of Thrones, its about the Game of Thrones.

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Whatever Jon does, I hope we don't get another invulnerable hero scene with him once they fight the Lannister army. I don't think I could stand watching him evade and kill 100 soldiers all by himself AGAIN

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Wait -- is Daenerys pregnant or not?  Two pregnant queens facing off?

We could see Daenerys, having lost her Dothraki -- and who knows what will happen to her dragons at Count Frankenstein's Red Keep where strange science goes on -- saying give Jon the job of pulling the seven kingdoms together (I'm assuming the IT will be destroyed -- hoping anyway -- and something less ugly will take its place), particularly since her child will be heir and 3/4 Targ anyway.

Or else they decide to go to Essos and leave Sansa and Tyrion with the Westros.

Or they all die.  Who knows?

 

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I can't remember what quote it was, but GRRM remarked on the Scouring of the Shire that a dictatorship was set up in there, and they burned trees. I jumped immediately to Dany. If the North wants to set up Bran or Sansa as their ruler she would be Saruman trying to control the Shire, and "dragons plant no trees."

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Take the crown, Dany heel turns, Jon has to plunge her to death. Jons a broken man but sits on the throne alone, its good for Westeros and hes a good King but hes never the same again. Bitter-Sweet, follows the prophesies to an extent, its just not the way we thought they would pan out. 

Either that or they go War ofthe Roses and a new dynasty starts.

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46 minutes ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

The show is called Game of Thrones, its about the Game of Thrones.

But wasn't it supposed to adapt ASoIaF? And didn't people say the ending would be essentially be the same? Not to mention, you know, that these people all behave like morons if they believe the game of thrones matters when humanity is about to be destroyed by zombies. In any realistic or internally consistent setting every character would be affected by that, questioning his/her own motivations, etc. Which is why basically the entire story right now is crap. Cersei would not do what she does in the show, Sansa would not do what she does (or rather what she says, she never does anything, anyway), there wouldn't be any issues between 'Aegon' and Dany, etc.

1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

This. GRRM definitely likes/models some of his stories/ideas after LOTR. I see the battle with the Others being the main epic finale of the story, but yes, his "bittersweet" ending will have to deal with them cleaning up small things like who sits on the throne, because after facing death and what that fight presumably entails, fighting for an uncomfortable chair doesn't seem as important. So Jon/Dany/whomever may sit on the throne, but it's "empty" feeling.

Well, everybody is going to feel 'empty' after he or she has to go back to a silly mundane life after they just defeated ice demons. However, I'd be very surprised if especially Jon were still around for the cleanup thing. If he were the savior actually ending the threat of the Others, defeating them somehow or at least ending the war for good, I really doubt this can be accomplished without him paying the ultimate price. However George is going to end the story it is going to be completely different since there won't be Lich King - and even if there were one killing him wouldn't kill all the other Others and wights.

As for the cleanup thing as such - I expect that even the nastier people - Cersei, Littlefinger, Euron, etc. - and also Dany's sworn enemies at that time - Aegon and Arianne if the Second Dance is going to end with a clear victory - might help defeat the Others after the Wall falls. The show idea of some sort of Great Council where the threat of the Others is discussed (without any sort of wight hunt, of course, but rather there being a grand truce for the time being when everybody gets believable reports that the Wall has fallen) is likely based on a book idea. There people will come to an understanding and make united efforts but the more insidious guys might make plans what to do when the true enemy is defeated. There could be a betrayal then, etc.

But I expect this to be more a minor affair, clandestine betrayal, backstabbing, assassination attempts, not another all-out war. Also, there might be some literal cleaning up to do considering that some enemies who technically have been defeated might be still out there and about to recover. There is likely going to be a point where the threat of the Others is going to overwrite everything else so that revenge and justice, etc. don't seem to be that great a priority.

1 hour ago, btfu806 said:

Also, I hope this means in the books there is no "night king" like in the show. That is it a more challenging fight then "cut off the head"

Sure, if such a creature existed in the books there would have been hints in that direction already. There might be a corrupted icy greenseer, though, a Child of the Forest living since before the Pact which sits at the Heart of Winter and directs the Others. But this wouldn't be a mobile person capable of coming down south but rather another spider in a net, very much like Bloodraven and Bran in the cave. I expect somebody has to go talk to that person and/or kill him/her.

After all, it seems clear that the Others are just tools. They were created by the Children to exterminate mankind by turning humans themselves into them - and making their own dead weapons against them. Some force has to keep that going. People have suggested that the Children just lost control of the weapon they themselves created, but in light of the fact that there is something in that Heart of Winter Bran saw and we are going to see the Lands of Always Winter eventually in the books, I doubt it is just the Others.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei would not do what she does in the show

Why not? What would she do in your opinion?

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3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Why not? What would she do in your opinion?

She wouldn't have contributed nothing to the effort to defeat the Others. She would have sent men to kill her enemies during the fighting or immediately thereafter. Also, the show Cersei isn't the kind of nut case the real Cersei is. She should have been able to come to an understanding with Dany. Why not give up the throne and rule Casterly Rock? What actual conflict have Daenerys Targaryen and Cersei Lannister? They never met before their one meeting and there is technically no bad blood between them whatsoever.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

She should have been able to come to an understanding with Dany. Why not give up the throne and rule Casterly Rock?

That's not Cersei. That's not Lannister. No, this were unbelievable alltogether. 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Chances are pretty high, I think, that Dany and Jon have their 'big moment' overcoming the fake tension when she has won the Iron Throne and realizes that she doesn't want it as much as she wants Jon. So she will offer it to him and then they will decide to rule jointly. End of story.

I can see this.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And I'm not sure the books will end it on the fight against the Others. Yes, that will the grand finale, but there might be some clean-up coming afterwards, sort of like the Scouring of the Shire in LotR.

I think this is a fair point.  I can't help though feel underwhelmed by the whole thing - building up the Prince that was Promised but then having Arya deliver the blow? Bran warging the whole time? Melisandre just collapsing into the snow? I can't help but feel like it isn't quite over.  That there is something else.

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1 hour ago, rustythesmith said:

Fans like to say that Martin is anti-war, but he isn't. He's anti-unnecessary war. He's said that there are some wars such as WWII where there is a very clear villain who needs to be stopped.

ASOIAF often demonstrates that the cruelty of man far outstrips the cruelty of nature.

We mourn when nature takes its death toll, but ultimately we can bear the loss because we know that there is a degree to which the conflict with nature is unavoidable. Nature's cruelty is not deliberate or personal, it's incidental. A wolf is as happy to eat a woman as a man, a goat as a child, and he won't make it a point to inflict more pain upon one than the other. As competitors ourselves, we know that, at the end of the day, we have the same motivations as the creatures that compete with us for primacy, and so there is a kinship in our conflict. If you ever feel that nature has betrayed you, the only reason you feel that way is because you weren't paying close enough attention to nature. Nature does what it has always done.

The horrors that people inflict on other people are far more difficult for us to bear. Why is it said that the kinslayer is accursed? What is it, exactly, that compels us to crucify one another rather than beheading? At the root of it, man vs man is betrayal. So that's why it stings in a way that nature doesn't. Each person possesses the body, mind and heart that constitute a detailed map of his own vulnerability. And so each person possesses an intimate understanding of the vulnerability of other people. Much of the suffering we inflict upon one another is completely over the top and unnecessary.

The last war was always going to be man vs man. Nature simply places upon man the pressures necessary to reveal the best and worst in man. Jorah, Edd, Melisandre, Lyanna and many more are among those who showed us the best. Now it's time for the remainder to show us the worst.

All that said, I am disappointed that the Others do not seem to have done a very good job at placing the pressures necessary upon mankind to reveal the worst of man. But there is still time and we'll see what happens next.

I thought, or perhaps hoped, that the Others, being part nature and part man, might have had motivations or a plan of attack more sinister than what nature can normally produce. To target the weirwood trees, mankind's memory, seemed to demonstrate a greater understanding of man's vulnerability, but by itself it felt lacking and impersonal. The weirwoods are not much of a loss to the characters because the memories in the weirwoods don't seem particularly important to the characters. Only one character can even see the planet's memories and he isn't sharing them with the other people anyway.

It's hard to put my finger on what exactly is the root of this feeling of let-down regarding the conflict with the WW in the show. Did I want them to be more sympathetic? I think their origin story is sympathetic. It rings with the cyclical violence of the story. Mankind was cruel to the Children in the past and now it has cycled back around to mankind. Did I need to get a closer look at the cruelty that the Children suffered at the hands of man? I don't think so. We can't go back to re-experience history for the purpose of developing sympathy, so we must produce our sympathy by imagining the history. I'll think on it more.

Great comment. Bravo. 

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Martin has created a situation that is narratively difficult to resolve.  A massive existential threat to the world, that has to be resolved but a plot built around who will rule, which seems pretty inconsequential after defeating death itself.

Making that seem important is the key to the rest of the Story.

In ROTK Tolkien did a great job of doing this, while showing how much the key characters had grown, but he had written the Shire as an idyllic place to start, and restoring that seems important.  This is a shit world, in their words, so simply restoring it to what it was wont be good enough.

I'm interested to see where it goes.

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Does anyone know if the Horn of Joramun was mentioned in the show?  If so, I think we will see it pulled out and used in the next 2 episodes, as we have to deal with Euron and Cersei.  

Right now, there is such a letdown, that thinking about dealing with Euron and Cersei is not quite motivating.  We know (from the trailer) that Dany of course will march on to KL, but I think there will be trouble between Dany and Jon.  Jon will prevail.  

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1 hour ago, chatty83 said:

Take the crown, Dany heel turns, Jon has to plunge her to death. Jons a broken man but sits on the throne alone, its good for Westeros and hes a good King but hes never the same again. Bitter-Sweet, follows the prophesies to an extent, its just not the way we thought they would pan out. 

Either that or they go War ofthe Roses and a new dynasty starts.

See, to me, Jon taking the crown away from Dany would be a major heel turn on his part. She's just done what a queen should do which is why he bent the knee to her in the first place. After she did all of that and lost so much because she listened to him when she could have easily been sitting on the throne already, AND she has saved his life personally multiple times, it would be ridiculous for him to claim the throne he has sworn he never cared about in the first place. So what his brother and best friend swear he's a trueborn Targaryen? That's not how it works. Cersei has the throne right now with barely any claim at all so who cares what Bran and Sam say, and Dany is the one who has been a true queen to the people. It also doesn't fit Jon's personality at all to do something dishonorable like that. 

Dany was told over and over you're not just queen because you say so or because of who your family is or even because you have dragons and armies. You have to act like it, and she has done that by abandoning her perfectly good plan to take the throne in order to protect the people of the north. So why then would Jon just be king because he says so and because of who his family is?

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3 minutes ago, theladyinspring said:

See, to me, Jon taking the crown away from Dany would be a major heel turn on his part. She's just done what a queen should do which is why he bent the knee to her in the first place. After she did all of that and lost so much because she listened to him when she could have easily been sitting on the throne already, AND she has saved his life personally multiple times, it would be ridiculous for him to claim the throne he has sworn he never cared about in the first place. So what his brother and best friend swear he's a trueborn Targaryen? That's not how it works. Cersei has the throne right now with barely any claim at all so who cares what Bran and Sam say, and Dany is the one who has been a true queen to the people. It also doesn't fit Jon's personality at all to do something dishonorable like that. 

Dany was told over and over you're not just queen because you say so or because of who your family is or even because you have dragons and armies. You have to act like it, and she has done that by abandoning her perfectly good plan to take the throne in order to protect the people of the north. So why then would Jon just be king because he says so and because of who his family is?

Oh for sure itll be a heel turn if Jon just betrays her to take the throne. Theyd need to set it up by having Dany go power hungry dictator so jon has to choose between what he wants and whats right.

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