Jump to content
Wagshell

Great battle plan! Dubious tactics discussion.

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Could someone tell me how to get rid of this wysiwyg quote nonsense and output actual script with which to form the replies?

Edited by John Meta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

According to your "logic", they might as well sit down in front of Winterfell and twiddle their thumbs. Or just commit suicide. Yes, they wouldn't win by mere physical fight, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't use a sound battle strategy to at least try and minimize their losses.

You can compare their situation with Aragorn's suicide mission to draw Sauron's attention away from Frodo's mission - they didn't know Frodo would save the day just at the nick of time, but they still used the best defensive strategy they could. Which is what the defence of Winterfell should have been, as well.

 

 

There's no such a thing as a "sound battle strategy" in an unprecedented battle against an unprecedented force. You're treating the unprecedented force as if it has precedent and subject to routine risk assessment and strategic operations. This is the fundamental mistake in the reasoning of most critics of this battle. This is not a Lannister army. This is an unprecedented force of supernatural beings shrouded in darkness (virtual stealth movement), moving like a spilling/rolling wave, with no need of rest or sustenance, the ability to summon storms, the ability to replenish troops at the wave of a hand, etc. The fact that you think there is such a thing as "sound battle strategy" demonstrates you haven't actually grasped the actual battle at hand.

You emphasize your lack of understanding by trying to compare this force to the orcs in TLotR. These two armies are nothing alike. Orcs are simply human forces, with a little more brawn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, storm.131 said:

But the point is, Dany and Jon didn't know that.  If you know a creature has been raised from being dead and all other such creatures can be killed with fire, why not at least try?

Also, if he wasn't like other Wights, why did he just collapse like all the Wights, and not shatter into shards of ice like the White Walkers?

Well, anything alters about the wights and Others from episode to episode, as they need it to happen. D&D said, "ice dragon", so that's that for me. No point in arguing consistency when the show's inconsistent about these things anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not military historian but it confused me that Jon and Dany didn't lead with their dragons to at the very least thin the herd of wights from the offset. The argument was that they needed to protect Bran but they weren't near the Godswood, either. 

Other things that bothered me were;

  1. meeting the army of the dead in an open field was just stupid and I thought as much in episode 2 when they made their "battle plan";
  2. the trepages being in front of the trench instead of behind them or - ideally - on the castle walls to avoid friendly fire;
  3. that the trench wasn't lit the moment the army of the dead were sighted;
  4. not having another trench in front of the Unsullied, or the putting the Unsullied behind the single trench they had;
  5. the nonsensical charge attack - the Dothraki could have been flanking the army of the dead;
  6. the fact that prior to Melisandre's appearance the Dothraki were apparently not armed properly with dragonglass (I mean WTF!?!);
  7. the fact that they didn't wait for the army of the dead to charge on them because, heck, Jon knows that is what they will do;
  8. the fact that the majority of the army were outside and on foot;
  9. the fact they put the commanders (like Brienne and Jorah) on the front line;
  10. the fact that hardly anyone was wearing a helmet. I get it, there might not be enough for everyone but... Brienne?! Jaime?! Podrick?! Jorah?! People who you'd expect to have proper armour suddenly don't.
  11. the fact that character who HAD helmets kept taking them off (looking at you, Grey Worm!)
  12. that the walls were not properly manned until everyone had retreated inside;
  13. no hot oil to drop on the wights;
  14. no dry moat with possible dragonglass spikes to try and stop the wights from clambering up the walls and giving them something to get stuck on if they do get to the walls but get pushed back;
  15. Bran was protected primarily by archers when they knew they could be swarmed, so he should have had some melee fighters, too...

And so on.

There are some things you can't completely plan for, such as the snowstorm the Night King and White Walkers brought with them which effects visibility for both the soldiers and the dragons, but a lot of the choices made were daft. However, the Night King's tactic was stupid to. Throwing his entire army at the only properly defended castle on the continent was just as stupid as any one of the things our living morons did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Meta said:

As for Arya - for seven seasons you've been shown that her training (by people who wear faces i.e. magic) allows her to move "silent as a shadow" "quick as a cat" "light as a feather" so for you to suddenly exclaim "superninja!" only begs the reply: right. Where have you been for seven seasons? Because apparently it wasn't spent watching this show. Yes, Arya is for all intents and purposes, a master ninja who can weaponize darkness. She's been fashioned over seven seasons for the specific purpose of weaponizing the Night King's own environment against him

You've made my 'ease the way' point.

Arya, the dark horse who was trained for this one end over years without her even knowing it until her conversation with Melisandre?

She was the perfect part of the episode.

There I saw all the hints laid out, from fighting blind to moving silently, from the switch hand thing to her being in possession of the catspaw dagger.

But would she even arrive near the Night King in a scenario of open battle?

As you say, might've, might've not.

In the end it's never about what could've gone better or worked out in a scenario even the characters themselves had no sufficient information to plan for.

It just looked more suicidal than sacrificial, but if your point is that I personally don't know how to fight ice necromancers from fantasy stories, then you're right and the poor blokes did the best they could.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Meta said:

There's no such a thing as a "sound battle strategy" in an unprecedented battle against an unprecedented force. You're treating the unprecedented force as if it has precedent and subject to routine risk assessment and strategic operations. This is the fundamental mistake in the reasoning of most critics of this battle. This is not a Lannister army. This is an unprecedented force of supernatural beings shrouded in darkness (virtual stealth movement), moving like a spilling/rolling wave, with no need of rest or sustenance, the ability to summon storms, the ability to replenish troops at the wave of a hand, etc. The fact that you think there is such a thing as "sound battle strategy" demonstrates you haven't actually grasped the actual battle at hand.

You emphasize your lack of understanding by trying to compare this force to the orcs in TLotR. These two armies are nothing alike. Orcs are simply human forces, with a little more brawn.

Oh, come on. The wights still move on two feet, they neither fly nor teleport, they can be killed by fire or dragonglass, and Jon has fought them before, so no, they are not "unprecedented". Plus, some battle strategies are universal, such as making use of the terrain as well as defence structures - you never put your long-range weapons in the front lines, and when you have a wall to hide behind, you use it to reduce the number of enemies that can actually get to you. Some defence techniques could be used without modifications - zombies or not, stones and logs thrown from the above would crush them just fine, and pouring down oil and pitch would make for zombie torches (and you wouldn't even have to heat the oil). It wouldn't repel them altogether but it would mean that more people would live to see another day once the real target was taken down.

And just FYI, while orcs are easier to kill, the similarity in the armies is in their vast numbers. Sauron's army (which did not consist solely of orcs) was simply too huge to be defeated by conventional means.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

You've made my 'ease the way' point.

Arya, the dark horse who was trained for this one end over years without her even knowing it until her conversation with Melisandre?

She was the perfect part of the episode.

There I saw all the hints laid out, from fighting blind to moving silently, from the switch hand thing to her being in possession of the catspaw dagger.

But would she even arrive near the Night King in a scenario of open battle?

As you say, might've, might've not.

In the end it's never about what could've gone better or worked out in a scenario even the characters themselves had no sufficient information to plan for.

It just looked more suicidal than sacrificial, but if your point is that I personally don't know how to fight ice necromancers from fantasy stories, then you're right and the poor blokes did the best they could.

If it looks like suicide that's because for all intents and purposes, that's what it is. First thing you have to do is provoke the battle otherwise the undead force can just stand in the distance until your troops all freeze/starve to death. The Dothraki are your best troops on an open field. What's the risk? Unknown. But they're your best troops available. So you basically have to order them to die. Whoever you're committing to provocation is probably going to die. That's what suicide missions are for. And basically every troop at Winterfell was signing on to die.

This is why all of the "superior alternate strategies" aren't superior at all. They are alternate, sure. But it's like, offering alternate ways to kill yourself to someone. "Shoot yourself." "No, terrible strategy. Overdose is the superior strategy." "The noose is the best!" All just different ways to effectuate the same death in the end.

When you look at the battle, it is 100% completely lost. No strategy is a "good" strategy. It's all just descending into darkness, chaos and death. The only thing that wins this battle is divine intervention. That's pretty much it. No strategies, no honors, no glories - just plain and simple divine intervention. This is symbolized in both Bran and the appearance of Melisandre who is the person who serves as the impetus for Arya, to whom Bran gave the Valerian steel dagger. It's why Berric was brought back. It's all divine intervention setting moving everything to where it goes in order to ultimately cause the ending of the story to be where it is "supposed to be"

And, yes, the main point here is, no one knows how to fight ice necromancers and their supernatural darkness-enshrouded unkillable troops who roll in waves of destruction. This is why critics stating strategies are just performing an exercise in absurdity. It's a shame that such a brilliant story has to suffer at the hands of absurdity but, I suppose that's the way it's supposed to be.

Edited by John Meta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Oh, come on. The wights still move on two feet, they neither fly nor teleport, they can be killed by fire or dragonglass, and Jon has fought them before, so no, they are not "unprecedented". Plus, some battle strategies are universal, such as making use of the terrain as well as defence structures - you never put your long-range weapons in the front lines, and when you have a wall to hide behind, you use it to reduce the number of enemies that can actually get to you. Some defence techniques could be used without modifications - zombies or not, stones and logs thrown from the above would crush them just fine, and pouring down oil and pitch would make for zombie torches (and you wouldn't even have to heat the oil). It wouldn't repel them altogether but it would mean that more people would live to see another day once the real target was taken down.

And just FYI, while orcs are easier to kill, the similarity in the armies is in their vast numbers. Sauron's army (which did not consist solely of orcs) was simply too huge to be defeated by conventional means.

They're certainly unprecedented. The word means there's been nothing like them before. There has been no engagement like this in available military history. There is no guide for fighting undead hordes which are shrouded in darkness, call up storms, roll in crashing waves of bodies, never eat or sleep, can replinish troops while adding to troop numbers. This is what unprecedented means. No military frame of reference. No context for contextual information. No available information to formulate risk assessment. Nothing.

Your proposition that some strategies are universal also fails to take into account the supernatural nature of the opposing force. How does "making use of the terrain" become a useful strategy when your opposing force moves in a towering, rolling and crashing wave across the terrain? You must've missed the movement of the main body as it approached Winterfell because the wights weren't just "moving on two feet" they were rolling in a high wave of rolling, leaping, spilling undead that came crashing into the Winterfell lines like a tsunami.

They horde was depicted as a chaotic force of nature and you're criticizing not dropping logs? "Shoulda had some logs up there, that would've turned the tide"? You do this then draw the conclusion "more people would've lived" as if you've got omniscience or something. How do you possibly know how many people would've lived if Y was the case instead of X? There's no possible way for you to make any kind of risk assessment.

I agree that the orc armies are similar with the wight armies in sheer number. That's a superficial similarity. Replace the orcs with the wight horde, and Aragorn et. al. are obliterated real quickly. And they don't even see what's coming because it's just a wave of darkness until all of the undead come crashing into them.

Now that you've brought it up, what exactly was this awesome strategy employed by Aragorn at the battle of the gate?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, John Meta said:

If it looks like suicide that's because for all intents and purposes, that's what it is. First thing you have to do is provoke the battle otherwise the undead force can just stand in the distance until your troops all freeze/starve to death. The Dothraki are your best troops on an open field. What's the risk? Unknown. But they're your best troops available. So you basically have to order them to die. Whoever you're committing to provocation is probably going to die. That's what suicide missions are for. And basically every troop at Winterfell was signing on to die.

This is why all of the "superior alternate strategies" aren't superior at all. They are alternate, sure. But it's like, offering alternate ways to kill yourself to someone. "Shoot yourself." "No, terrible strategy. Overdose is the superior strategy." "The noose is the best!" All just different ways to effectuate the same death in the end.

When you look at the battle, it is 100% completely lost. No strategy is a "good" strategy. It's all just descending into darkness, chaos and death. The only thing that wins this battle is divine intervention. That's pretty much it. No strategies, no honors, no glories - just plain and simple divine intervention. This is symbolized in both Bran and the appearance of Melisandre who is the person who serves as the impetus for Arya, to whom Bran gave the Valerian steel dagger. It's why Berric was brought back. It's all divine intervention setting moving everything to where it goes in order to ultimately cause the ending of the story to be where it is "supposed to be"

And, yes, the main point here is, no one knows how to fight ice necromancers and their supernatural darkness-enshrouded unkillable troops who roll in waves of destruction. This is why critics stating strategies are just performing an exercise in absurdity. It's a shame that such a brilliant story has to suffer at the hands of absurdity but, I suppose that's the way it's supposed to be.

Which is why participation in this kind of forum is, to me, a venting exercise.

Would I have liked to see some things done differently? Most definitely.

In this particular case?

If for some random act of whatever deity guards fictional content, they'd done the exact things I described and they'd all died anyhow as they were supposed to in those set conditions, I'd probably still be here venting about shitty battle tactics. 

Regardless of end result, as you said it, it was a suicide mission, but I suppose the lack of agency bothers me, is all.

The kind of trust in some sort of higher being that would intervene to whatever end is not my first or second reaction.

As such, it is my instinct to repeatedly try to come up with a solution to their desperate situation that would not include merely 'hope' for that higher being or providence to intervene.

After all, at the end of the day, so to speak, even their 'Men in Tights' worthy plan still did result in the Ice Necromancer in question just lifting his arms and reanimating himself a fresh army. 

And any other would as well, indeed.

For all that I'd like to duscuss it with a bonnafide medieval tactics buff on the subject of defending a keep, it'd still be an exercise in futility, not just because of the ice zombie factor, but because this is a done deal.

They chose to throw themselves at the rolling wave of reanimated corpses in the way we saw and trust that somehow it'd be enough. They were fortunate that their gods were listening, I guess.

 

 

Edited by It_spelt_Magalhaes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, John Meta said:

They're certainly unprecedented. The word means there's been nothing like them before. There has been no engagement like this in available military history. There is no guide for fighting undead hordes which are shrouded in darkness, call up storms, roll in crashing waves of bodies, never eat or sleep, can replinish troops while adding to troop numbers. This is what unprecedented means. No military frame of reference. No context for contextual information. No available information to formulate risk assessment. Nothing.

Your proposition that some strategies are universal also fails to take into account the supernatural nature of the opposing force. How does "making use of the terrain" become a useful strategy when your opposing force moves in a towering, rolling and crashing wave across the terrain? You must've missed the movement of the main body as it approached Winterfell because the wights weren't just "moving on two feet" they were rolling in a high wave of rolling, leaping, spilling undead that came crashing into the Winterfell lines like a tsunami.

The scale was unprecedented, but so was the siege of Minas Tirith. Still, battle preparation were made because it is always better to do something than nothing (and I'm talking the books here, not the stupidity that Jackson did in the film). And there was the battle of Hardhome, which gave Jon a partial insight into what the wights could do. They could break through a palisade or climb over its top, so it could have been expected they would scale the walls of Winterfell, too. Hence, preparations should have been made to try and prevent that for as long as possible. Each zombie you crush or burn is one zombie less to get at your throat because supernatural or not, all it eventually boils down to is a bunch of zombies bodily attacking the defenders. They wouldn't have been able to hold them off indefinitely but every minute they gained could have been the minute when NK met his fate.

8 hours ago, John Meta said:

They horde was depicted as a chaotic force of nature and you're criticizing not dropping logs? "Shoulda had some logs up there, that would've turned the tide"? You do this then draw the conclusion "more people would've lived" as if you've got omniscience or something. How do you possibly know how many people would've lived if Y was the case instead of X? There's no possible way for you to make any kind of risk assessment.

Nobody is talking about turning the tide but about an attempt to buy more time before the main confrontation happens. The longer it takes the wights to overrun Winterfell, the more people get to survive the battle. You may try something that turns out to be ineffective but if you don't try anything, one thing is certain - the walls will be scaled fast and then massacre will follow because you will be overpowered very quickly. As a battle 

 

8 hours ago, John Meta said:

I agree that the orc armies are similar with the wight armies in sheer number. That's a superficial similarity. Replace the orcs with the wight horde, and Aragorn et. al. are obliterated real quickly. And they don't even see what's coming because it's just a wave of darkness until all of the undead come crashing into them.

Now that you've brought it up, what exactly was this awesome strategy employed by Aragorn at the battle of the gate?

"Little time was left to Aragorn for the ordering of his battle. Upon the one hill he stood with Gandalf, and there fair and desperate was raised the banner of the Tree and Stars. Upon the other hill hard by stood the banners of Rohan and Dol Amroth, White Horse and Silver Swan. And about each hill a ring was made facing all ways, bristling with spear and sword. But inthefront towards Mordeor where the first bitter assault would come there stood the sons of Elrond on the left with the Dúnedain about them, and onthe right the Prince  Imragil withthe men of Dol Amroth tall and fair, and picked men of the Tower of Guard."

In other words: use the terrain, make a defence line. The basics. Like Minas Tirith did - when you have the walls, bloody defend them. Don't waste your riders attacking far away, use them to man the walls. (And that all in real supernatural darkness, not merely at night)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The scale was unprecedented

The army was unprecedented. There was no historic/strategic precedent for battling an ice necromancer wizard and his magical undead horde. 

Still, battle preparation were made because it is always better to do something than nothing (and I'm talking the books here, not the stupidity that Jackson did in the film). And there was the battle of Hardhome, which gave Jon a partial insight into what the wights could do. They could break through a palisade or climb over its top, so it could have been expected they would scale the walls of Winterfell, too. Hence, preparations should have been made to try and prevent that for as long as possible.

Right, they had archers shooting dragonglass-tipped arrows, and the entire perimeter of the top of the wall was covered in dragonglass shards which had been fixed into place. That's preparation, right?

Each zombie you crush or burn is one zombie less to get at your throat because supernatural or not, all it eventually boils down to is a bunch of zombies bodily attacking the defenders. They wouldn't have been able to hold them off indefinitely but every minute they gained could have been the minute when NK met his fate.

No, the generals didn't enter the city and the grove until a specific moment had taken place. Buying more time against the wights would've just delayed the White Walkers from entering the city that amount of time. Remember that the Night King was killed specifically by Arya at a specific moment in time. Everything had to play out according to the specific timing in which it did or else the battle is a loss. Everything has to be exactly where it is supposed to be, when it is supposed to be - this is why Bran repeats this idea.

Nobody is talking about turning the tide but about an attempt to buy more time before the main confrontation happens. The longer it takes the wights to overrun Winterfell, the more people get to survive the battle.

You're assuming the battle will be won and there will be survivors. That's you using partial-omniscient audience information which the characters don't have. And again, they put archers with dragonglass arrows along the wall, and embedded dragonglass spikes into the wall. Dropping logs onto the wights isn't going to do much else since the wights clearly overran the city quickly. And I really have to ask: really? Dropping logs? You watch this battle and you're talking about dropping logs? I've never seen such a thing in any battle I've ever seen on film and this is what you dredge up in order to criticize?

You may try something that turns out to be ineffective but if you don't try anything, one thing is certain - the walls will be scaled fast and then massacre will follow because you will be overpowered very quickly.

And you think dropping logs on the wights is going to change that outcome in any meaningful way? 

In other words: use the terrain, make a defence line. The basics.

There was a defense line. You can't possibly have missed the Unsullied in that scene so why are you talking about defense lines as if they didn't have them at Winterfell? And again, how do you possibly make use of the terrain when the opposing force is, again, moving in a high-rolling wave like a tsunami? That is how the undead horde made its charge and it broke all of the Winterfell formations. That's when the wights began to break into single troops to attack individuals - when all the ranks were broken. There is no such a thing as "using the terrain" against the approach of a tsunami wave of undead.

Like Minas Tirith did - when you have the walls, bloody defend them. Don't waste your riders attacking far away, use them to man the walls.

The Dothraki cavalry was being employed to provoke the battle. You do understand this? The wights were standing at a distance, waiting. If you do not press the battle, the opposing force (which has no need of either rest of food) can simply stand at a distance and wait for your entire force to freeze/starve to death. You cannot put all of your men in defensive positions since you must commit to the initial offense in order to provoke the battle. Once the battle is provoked, then you can fall into defensive positions. This is what happened in this battle.

And in this sense, the Winterfell forces were actually making use of the terrain in that they sent the cavalry which was renown for being nigh-invincible on an open field. The strategy being employed by the Winterfell forces is based on the strategy of provoking the battle, then waiting to get eyes of the Night King, then concentrate all available resources to eliminate that single troop. That's what they did. That's the only thing they could do. All of the criticisms you're making are simply coming from videos you're watching which were made by people who have no idea what they're actually talking about. Every critical video you're seeing on youtube.com is made by such a person.

Edited by John Meta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/29/2019 at 2:14 PM, John Meta said:

 

The Dothraki cavalry was being employed to provoke the battle. You do understand this? The wights were standing at a distance, waiting. If you do not press the battle, the opposing force (which has no need of either rest of food) can simply stand at a distance and wait for your entire force to freeze/starve to death. You cannot put all of your men in defensive positions since you must commit to the initial offense in order to provoke the battle. Once the battle is provoked, then you can fall into defensive positions. This is what happened in this battle.

And in this sense, the Winterfell forces were actually making use of the terrain in that they sent the cavalry which was renown for being nigh-invincible on an open field. The strategy being employed by the Winterfell forces is based on the strategy of provoking the battle, then waiting to get eyes of the Night King, then concentrate all available resources to eliminate that single troop. That's what they did. That's the only thing they could do. 

You know what?  I'll buy this.  :)  It makes the most sense, to me.  Provoke the attack, see how it goes, then fall back.

I'd also like to mention that show!Dothraki seemed to use more of a frontal charge tactic as opposed to using their bows and feinting tactics.  So a charges is what they were going to do, if used to provoke a battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/1/2019 at 12:22 AM, Tywin Tytosson said:

You know what?  I'll buy this.  :)  It makes the most sense, to me.  Provoke the attack, see how it goes, then fall back.

I'd also like to mention that show!Dothraki seemed to use more of a frontal charge tactic as opposed to using their bows and feinting tactics.  So a charges is what they were going to do, if used to provoke a battle.

The problem with the Dothraki using the bows is that the undead army is shrouded in darkness. It would be like trying to use a bow against invisible targets: pointless. In fact, everything the ground forces are doing is rather pointless. There was a strategy of offensive provocation into defensive positioning, but the latter strategy was utterly pointless. Once the undead tidal wave (the same tidal wave which the initial Dothraki charge met) broke the Unsullied formations, the battle on the ground became a free-for-all melee with no formations or strategies available except: survive.

After the provocation, the only strategy which remains is: eliminate the Night King. There are no strategies against the undead horde. They're rendered immediately pointless. Dropping logs, pouring oil, firing arrows - all pointless. Just like the strategy of the Unsullied (the most disciplined of the troops) was rendered immediately null. It all comes crashing down to: survive. Stick a blade into whatever is running at you and just try to survive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/28/2019 at 9:06 PM, John Meta said:

There's no such a thing as a "sound battle strategy" in an unprecedented battle against an unprecedented force. You're treating the unprecedented force as if it has precedent and subject to routine risk assessment and strategic operations. This is the fundamental mistake in the reasoning of most critics of this battle. This is not a Lannister army. This is an unprecedented force of supernatural beings shrouded in darkness (virtual stealth movement), moving like a spilling/rolling wave, with no need of rest or sustenance, the ability to summon storms, the ability to replenish troops at the wave of a hand, etc. The fact that you think there is such a thing as "sound battle strategy" demonstrates you haven't actually grasped the actual battle at hand.

 You emphasize your lack of understanding by trying to compare this force to the orcs in TLotR. These two armies are nothing alike. Orcs are simply human forces, with a little more brawn.

Main problem in fighting White Walkers and wights is that WWs can revive your own dead and use them against you. Meaning that sound battle strategy against wights would have been to minimize casualties while still drawing Night King out. So I am thinking something like pavis wall that armies of John and Matthias Hunyadi utilized against the Turks. We see something similar utilized by both Lannister and Bolton armies (unsuccessful in first case, successful in second), so there is precendent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/5/2019 at 7:47 AM, Aldarion said:

Main problem in fighting White Walkers and wights is that WWs can revive your own dead and use them against you. Meaning that sound battle strategy against wights would have been to minimize casualties while still drawing Night King out. So I am thinking something like pavis wall that armies of John and Matthias Hunyadi utilized against the Turks. We see something similar utilized by both Lannister and Bolton armies (unsuccessful in first case, successful in second), so there is precendent.

This is another example of not understanding the opposing force. Just like most others, you're trying to compare the undead horde to a human force, and the comparison couldn't be more false. These are not Lannisters or Turks. They are not human beings in a force with historic precedent. If they were, the strategy of sending the Dothraki cavalry would be a great strategy since on an open field the Dothraki (a precedented force) would likely be victorious. End of battle.

The problem with your strategy here is first in the statement "minimize your casualties while still drawing the Night King out" and? How do you do that? Since the undead horde is unprecedented, you have no frame of reference to formulate any kind of risk assessment. You can't formulate any kind of probabilities to determine what it is going to take to draw out the Night King. Nothing in your statement can be assessed or known in any way. You have no information whatsoever through which to determine any outcome in any meaningful way. The only precedent you have to work with is the precedent of your own force - in this case, the Dothraki precedent of being virtually unbeatable on an open field (a precedent against normal human troops) and the Unsullied precedent of being the most disciplined troops available. Neither of these precedents give us any other information, especially in relation to the unprecedented force of the Night King.

The second problem is with the suggestion of a shield wall. You have clearly, like many, missed the fact that the undead charge moves in the form of a rolling tidal wave with wights rolling, clawing, running, leaping upon/over/through/with one another in a wave of destruction. When you saw that one charging Dothraki suddenly look up in horror, he wasn't looking at a giant, he was looking up at the crest of this tidal wave of wights. Your shield wall would be as effective trying to hold back an actual tidal wave. Meaning, having as much effect as the Unsullied shield wall - that is, none. No effect at all. No human man can withstand that kind of force crashing into him, and your formation is going to shatter upon impact, just as the Unsullied disciplined shield-wall shattered instantly.

The Winterfell forces needed to provoke the attack. I can't think of a better way to do this than sending your Dothraki cavalry onto an open field (which by precedent made them practically invincible) to engage the undead horde. This would give you the chance of minimilizing casualties (since the Dothraki were nigh-unbeatable on an open field, they have the best chance of all your troops of not dying) and provoking the battle. We would have no idea of actual risk assessment, nor the potential for success in this. For all intents and purposes, the Dothraki are going to have to give their lives to start the battle if need be. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, John Meta said:

This is another example of not understanding the opposing force. Just like most others, you're trying to compare the undead horde to a human force, and the comparison couldn't be more false. These are not Lannisters or Turks. They are not human beings in a force with historic precedent. If they were, the strategy of sending the Dothraki cavalry would be a great strategy since on an open field the Dothraki (a precedented force) would likely be victorious. End of battle.

 The problem with your strategy here is first in the statement "minimize your casualties while still drawing the Night King out" and? How do you do that? Since the undead horde is unprecedented, you have no frame of reference to formulate any kind of risk assessment. You can't formulate any kind of probabilities to determine what it is going to take to draw out the Night King. Nothing in your statement can be assessed or known in any way. You have no information whatsoever through which to determine any outcome in any meaningful way. The only precedent you have to work with is the precedent of your own force - in this case, the Dothraki precedent of being virtually unbeatable on an open field (a precedent against normal human troops) and the Unsullied precedent of being the most disciplined troops available. Neither of these precedents give us any other information, especially in relation to the unprecedented force of the Night King.

The second problem is with the suggestion of a shield wall. You have clearly, like many, missed the fact that the undead charge moves in the form of a rolling tidal wave with wights rolling, clawing, running, leaping upon/over/through/with one another in a wave of destruction. When you saw that one charging Dothraki suddenly look up in horror, he wasn't looking at a giant, he was looking up at the crest of this tidal wave of wights. Your shield wall would be as effective trying to hold back an actual tidal wave. Meaning, having as much effect as the Unsullied shield wall - that is, none. No effect at all. No human man can withstand that kind of force crashing into him, and your formation is going to shatter upon impact, just as the Unsullied disciplined shield-wall shattered instantly.

The Winterfell forces needed to provoke the attack. I can't think of a better way to do this than sending your Dothraki cavalry onto an open field (which by precedent made them practically invincible) to engage the undead horde. This would give you the chance of minimilizing casualties (since the Dothraki were nigh-unbeatable on an open field, they have the best chance of all your troops of not dying) and provoking the battle. We would have no idea of actual risk assessment, nor the potential for success in this. For all intents and purposes, the Dothraki are going to have to give their lives to start the battle if need be. 

And you are missing a lot of things as well.

1) That only makes what they did even more stupid. If they had no precendent, and had to aim for a conventional victory, then their tactics are inexcusable. And we know that Night King was going to come out when 1) he had to raise the dead, or 2) enemy resistance was too stiff for his horde of corpses. Which again points towards need to utilize conventional tactics, in order to deplete his army as much as possible and thus force him to make an appearance as early as possible. Also, Dothraki are not "unbeatable in the open field". I am not sure whether that had been mentioned in the show or not, but they had been beaten by the Unsullied.

2) Unsullied did not deploy in a shield wall at any point in the battle. Spacing in their formation is more reminiscent of Roman Legion - whose troops relied on swords. There is too great spacing between individual soldiers, and there is no need for them to be divided into individual units since they are clearly not going to maneuver - in these conditions gaps between units are unnecessary vulnerability. Overall, their formation is a failure.

Also, if you pause below at 1:17 - 1:18, you will clearly see a giant illuminated by fire - his legs, that is. Your suggestion of tidal wave of wights is, at that point at least, wrong.

Moving on, when wights attack Unsullied, they are clearly running like normal humans do.

We only see "tidal wave" from perspective of the Unsullied, but remember that they are semi-crouching here. Wights are not appearing taller because they are "riding" atop each another, but because Unsullied - and thus our PoV - has been lowered.

EDIT: Even bloody 300 did shield wall better than the Unsullied:

Of course, they soon abandoned it for... cinematic experience. But at least this piece of junk is based on a comic book, not on work of author who generally has his characters utilizing realistic tactics.

3) Winterfell forces did not need to provoke the attack. Night King was clearly going to come to them anyway, as the army of the dead had been moving towards Winterfell for days at that point. And even if they did need to provoke the attack, you do not send light cavalry armed with melee weapons against a mass of infantry. Especially when said melee weapons are crap. Sorry, but that is just ridiculous. If Martin had done his research, or the showrunners theirs, they would have realized that nomadic steppe cavalry was a) not necessarily exclusively light cavalry (Sarmatians, Scythians, Alans, Sakas and Mongols used cataphracts, despite being nomads), and b) relied heavily on archery hit-and-run tactics, with cataphracts being used to deliver a knockout blow. Even if they had to send cavalry into an open field, I do not see why they would have to be armed with melee weapons; and if they were to be "practically invincible" in open field, heavy reliance on archery is mandatory. As it is, however, I simply cannot see Dothraki as a viable fighting force against organized opposition, unless all Essosi militaries are completely useless. Now, this is not tactical failure of characters but research failure of writers, but still.

Edited by Aldarion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they had no precendent, and had to aim for a conventional victory, then their tactics are inexcusable.

The "and" in your if/and/then is false, making your "then" statement also false. The Winterfell forces were not in any way aiming for a "conventional victory" the only potential win-con was elimination of a single troop - the Night King. There was no "aim" for the undead horde besides survival in a horde of undead, if at all possible, while others attempted to complete the main objective. You're not winning a "conventional victory" against the ice necromancer wizard and his magical undead horde.

And we know that Night King was going to come out when 1) he had to raise the dead

How do you figure the Night King was going to come out when he had to raise the dead? What makes you think he can't do that from the back of his dragon while shrouded in the darkness and the snow storm?

2) enemy resistance was too stiff for his horde of corpses.

Which wasn't a possible scenario.

Also, Dothraki are not "unbeatable in the open field".

It's mentioned in the show that they're virtually unbeatable on an open field. So that's at least some information you can put to use in potential risk assessment.

2) Unsullied did not deploy in a shield wall at any point in the battle.

Well, shield walls wouldn't have mattered at any rate.

there is no need for them to be divided into individual units since they are clearly not going to maneuver

Before the battle, there's no way of knowing. How would you know if you would need to deploy them or not when the opposing force is unprecedented in both form and strategy? Wouldn't you want to be able to adjust at a moment's reactive notice if need be? Before the battle you wouldn't even know from which direction any assault was going to come. You've got nothing but a board of unknown variables yet you're acting like you've got information.

Also, if you pause below at 1:17 - 1:18, you will clearly see a giant illuminated by fire - his legs, that is. Your suggestion of tidal wave of wights is, at that point at least, wrong.

It may be a giant, I honestly can't tell. But what I can tell is that the horde crashes into a formation like a tidal wave, and spill/crash/run/roll over it just like a breaking wave. There's no shield wall that's going to do anything whatsoever. Nothing. It's absurd to think a line of men holding shields is going to do anything against a horde of World War Z zombies.

Moving on, when wights attack Unsullied, they are clearly running like normal humans do.

We only see "tidal wave" from perspective of the Unsullied, but remember that they are semi-crouching here. Wights are not appearing taller because they are "riding" atop each another, but because Unsullied - and thus our PoV - has been lowered.

When they crash into the barrier, they are running/rolling through/over one another like a breaking wave. Any shield wall is going to offer no resistance whatsoever. These are World War Z zombie tactics. These appeals to shield walls and strategic formations are absurd. No offense, but you're basically saying "Let me tell you how to realistically fight a magical ice necromancer wizard and his magical undead horde" and at first I laugh because it sounds like a joke. Then I realize you're serious.

3) Winterfell forces did not need to provoke the attack. Night King was clearly going to come to them anyway

I seriously doubt you're omniscient so there's no way for your claim "Night King was going to clearly" has any functional meaning. But one thing is for sure, if your opposing force has no need of food or rest, they can simply stand at a distance and let your troops all freeze/starve to death, true? So how do you propose you deal with a force that can just stand at a distance and let your troops slowly die? Provoke the battle before that can happen?

And even if they did need to provoke the attack, you do not send light cavalry armed with melee weapons against a mass of infantry.

What do you do, then, Sun Tzu?

I do not see why they would have to be armed with melee weapons; and if they were to be "practically invincible" in open field, heavy reliance on archery is mandatory.

So fire arrows blindly into the darkness and? Stare at the darkness? Wonder if you hit anything? I suppose that's a strategy, just not sure if I could call it a good one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, John Meta said:

 

1) You were the one who claimed that "Since the undead horde is unprecedented, you have no frame of reference to formulate any kind of risk assessment." "The only precedent you have to work with is the precedent of your own force - in this case, the Dothraki precedent of being virtually unbeatable on an open field (a precedent against normal human troops) and the Unsullied precedent of being the most disciplined troops available."

My point was that regardless of how they were going to win - killing all the wights or assassinating the Night King - they had to survive long enough to do it. Ergo, conventional tactics still matter.

2) At Hardhome, Night King had to come to among the corpses in order to raise them. He may have been mocking the survivors, but you have to draw NK out one way or another, otherwise you are back to "destroying every wight and white walker in sight".

3) If "too stiff resistance" is not a possible scenario, there is no need for Night King to come out personally. He can just have wights kill everyone, Bran included. And that is my main issue with the living's plan: you should never base your plan on the assumption that enemy is an idiot.

4) Problem is that show itself does not support the idea of Dothraki being unbeatable. Especially against an opponent that outmaches them in most of their strengths.

5) Why do you think shield wall would not have mattered? Unless people dying is somehow an important part of their plan, they should be trying to keep as many of their forces alive as possible.

6) The entire tactical setup consists of forming a defense line before (and around) Winterfell and waiting for wights to come at them. Even if they had to maneuver before the battle, such maneuvers would have been concluded by the time wights had entered visual range. Ergo, they should have closed formation immediately upon seeing the wights instead of staying in place. Kinda like this:

7) The only reason horde crashes into and over Unsullied formation "like a tidal wave" is because Unsullied are being thrown down by the force of the impact. That is something that would not have happened in a proper phalanx, since press of the troops behind would have prevented it. I have seen no indication of wights behaving like a literal "zombie wave" that you claim they behaved as.

And if you are correct about tidal wave (which I see no proof of), then absolutely nothing except dragons would have worked since any living force would have been literally crushed dead under the wight tide. Which means that conventional victory is impossible - and we clearly know that is not the case, as in the backstory the Children of the Forest and the First Men were able to beat back the Others.

8) Night King had the opportunity to do exactly that - he did not have to launch the attack after slaughtering the Dothraki - yet he did not do it. In fact, if what you claim is true, then any plans other than going after NK immediately were bound to fail.

9) They had artillery. Artillery bombardment might well have been enough to provoke the attack, and if that doesn't work, then get some cavalry which knows how to use bows. I already explained why Dothraki not using bows is idiotic portrayal. And if they really do not know how to use bows, or cannot use flaming projectiles, there is still that flaming-ball-on-a-chain thing used by Coldhands, which should not be hard to recreate. Hit the wights, and then pull back right away. Rinse and repeat as many times as necessary to draw wights towards the main army. Do not stay and fight.

10) We know from earlier that wights are highly flammable (even if this particular episode forgets that). So fire a spread of arrows, and then shoot around places which catch fire. Even if wights are invisible in pitch darkness, they will not stay so for long. Cavalry has advantage of mobility over infantry-based enemy, and Dothraki should have been proficient in Parthian shot. Doing what I propose should not have been that difficult.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
Quote

1) You were the one who claimed that "Since the undead horde is unprecedented, you have no frame of reference to formulate any kind of risk assessment." "The only precedent you have to work with is the precedent of your own force - in this case, the Dothraki precedent of being virtually unbeatable on an open field (a precedent against normal human troops) and the Unsullied precedent of being the most disciplined troops available."

I claimed that because it's true.

Quote

My point was that regardless of how they were going to win - killing all the wights or assassinating the Night King - they had to survive long enough to do it. Ergo, conventional tactics still matter.

No, "they" did not have to survive. "They" as in the ground troops. The only ones who had to survive long enough to do it were basically Jon and Dany. Which is why they weren't part of the battle at all, until Dany broke strategy to take her dragon into the battle, and Jon followed. The strategy broke down at that point. Everyone on the ground signed on to die. That's why everyone was saying, "We're all going to die." It was an act of completely improbable near-futility because this was their best chance if there was to be any chance at all.

Quote

2) At Hardhome, Night King had to come to among the corpses in order to raise them. He may have been mocking the survivors, but you have to draw NK out one way or another, otherwise you are back to "destroying every wight and white walker in sight".

Well, we don't know where the Night King needs to be or how his undead making power works. This is why I'm saying you're assuming way too much. Where you think you have knowledge, you've actually got nothing. But I agree, you have to draw the Night King out, one way (Dothraki charge provocation) or another (insert alternative here). Note that the "alternative" is not a better strategy, it's just a different strategy. The strategy of "destroy every wight and White Walker in sight" is not a strategy that functionally exists. The only strategy is to draw out the Night King and eliminate that troop. All other strategies end in swift and utter defeat.

Quote

3) If "too stiff resistance" is not a possible scenario, there is no need for Night King to come out personally. He can just have wights kill everyone, Bran included. And that is my main issue with the living's plan: you should never base your plan on the assumption that enemy is an idiot.

"Too stiff resistance" was certainly not possible. The Night King's motive here was simple: revenge on the Children of the Forest, targeting the Three-Eyed Raven. He wants - needs - to be the one to exact his revenge, personally, face-to-face. There was no danger when the White Walkers entered Winterfell. The battle was decidely won. Little did they know there was still one person in Winterfell able to make the final play. But to their credit, there's no possible way they could've anticipated the presence of a person "silent as a shadow, quick as a cat, light as a feather" built to weaponize their very environment against them and perform a pin-point steath assassination.

Quote

4) Problem is that show itself does not support the idea of Dothraki being unbeatable. Especially against an opponent that outmaches them in most of their strengths.

Whether the information was accurate or not, it's information that the characters had. The Dothraki would have the best chance of surviving an offensive against their opponent. However slim that chance may have been, it was still better than anyone else.

Quote

5) Why do you think shield wall would not have mattered? Unless people dying is somehow an important part of their plan, they should be trying to keep as many of their forces alive as possible.

The shield wall doesn't matter because the horde pours over it. The horde is moving like a wave of water - when the front receives any resistance, that doesn't slow down the horde that's following. They just keep moving forward at the same speed, now running on top of those in front of them, in a contuing progression. Just like a tidal wave. The water behind the crest doesn't just stop, it rolls up and over to break.

Quote

6) The entire tactical setup consists of forming a defense line before (and around) Winterfell and waiting for wights to come at them. Even if they had to maneuver before the battle, such maneuvers would have been concluded by the time wights had entered visual range. Ergo, they should have closed formation immediately upon seeing the wights instead of staying in place. Kinda like this:

They couldn't see anything, the wights were shrouded in darkness. If you're watching a wall of darkness approaching, you've got no information at all as to what formation is concealed behind that darkness.

Quote

7) The only reason horde crashes into and over Unsullied formation "like a tidal wave" is because Unsullied are being thrown down by the force of the impact. That is something that would not have happened in a proper phalanx, since press of the troops behind would have prevented it. I have seen no indication of wights behaving like a literal "zombie wave" that you claim they behaved as.

Look, Google "game of thrones" "wight" "tidal wave" whatever, you'll find it. The way they move is that the wights behind don't stop moving if the wights in front are slowed, they simply go on top of those, and the ones behind, on top of those, all running and climbing and rolling over. Your shield wall isn't going to do anything.

 

 

Quote

Which means that conventional victory is impossible - and we clearly know that is not the case, as in the backstory the Children of the Forest and the First Men were able to beat back the Others.

We don't know anything meaningful about that story. This is a problem when you just hand-wave a conclusion based on a premise containing no meaningful information. The only information available is what we're seeing in this episode. And in this episode, yeah, we're seeing that a conventional victory is impossible.

Quote

8) Night King had the opportunity to do exactly that - he did not have to launch the attack after slaughtering the Dothraki - yet he did not do it. In fact, if what you claim is true, then any plans other than going after NK immediately were bound to fail.

He didn't have to, but he did. If there's any poor strategy here, it's employed by the Night King. But then that depends on what he really wanted to accomplish. The fact that he shows emotion in confidence (smirked at Dany) and has to be the one to kill Bran says he was in some way still emotionally invested in his former self. Seems to play parallel to Dany in that, at the critical hour, he made a choice based on emotion and it cost him the game. Yet, again, for all intents and purposes his strategy worked as well as any other. Again, there is no possible way to account for the one girl whose life had fashioned her into a Night King assassin to actually not only exist, but to be in the battle itself.

Quote

9) They had artillery. Artillery bombardment might well have been enough to provoke the attack

You could fire your missiles blindly, sure.

Quote

get some cavalry which knows how to use bows. I already explained why Dothraki not using bows is idiotic portrayal.

Again, the horde is shrouded in darkness. Firing arrows into a huge wall of darkness is pointless, especially if you've got a limited supply of dragonglass heads. You would want to make every one of those count, not just blindly send them streaming into a wall of darkness when there's no way to know if you've even hit something. The only way to actually be sure you're engaging the enemy is to engage the enemy.

Quote

Hit the wights, and then pull back right away. Rinse and repeat as many times as necessary to draw wights towards the main army. Do not stay and fight.

Oh is it that easy? Just hit the wights then pull back. Unless you're immediately swarmed by wights, right? Since it all took place in pitch darkness, we have no information with which to assess anything. Yet you're talking like your strategy cannot possible be resisted or thwarted in any way. Just rinse and repeat. It's a walk in the park against the magical undead horde. Come on, man.

Quote

10) We know from earlier that wights are highly flammable (even if this particular episode forgets that). So fire a spread of arrows, and then shoot around places which catch fire. Even if wights are invisible in pitch darkness, they will not stay so for long. Cavalry has advantage of mobility over infantry-based enemy, and Dothraki should have been proficient in Parthian shot. Doing what I propose should not have been that difficult.

I'm not saying any of your strategic suggestions couldn't be employed, I'm saying they're no better than the strategy as seen. Wouldn't it be nice if I could just, wave my magic wand and, poof, we're at the battle. I give you full control over the Winterfell forces, then watch them all get obliterated while you stand mouth open uttering, "Nothing's working... what's happening to my troops? I can't see my troops!" then a lone rider rides out of the darkness calling upward, "Sir! You have no troops!" then maybe a realization crosses your face and you say, "Now I understand."

Edited by John Meta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/7/2019 at 12:23 AM, John Meta said:

I claimed that because it's true.

Except it is not. Army of the dead may be unprecendented, but "Dothraki being unbeatable in the open field" is patently false. We know that they had been beaten by the Unsullied (in the books, at least), and quite frankly, what I do see of their battle capabilities is pathetic.

Quote

No, "they" did not have to survive. "They" as in the ground troops. The only ones who had to survive long enough to do it were basically Jon and Dany. Which is why they weren't part of the battle at all, until Dany broke strategy to take her dragon into the battle, and Jon followed. The strategy broke down at that point. Everyone on the ground signed on to die. That's why everyone was saying, "We're all going to die." It was an act of completely improbable near-futility because this was their best chance if there was to be any chance at all.

They had to survive long enough for the Night King to come out so that Jon and Dany can kill him. That is literally the entire point of the battle. If ground troops get slaughtered so quickly and completely that Night King can sit in the background twiddling thumbs and doing nothing, then strategy fails.

Quote

Well, we don't know where the Night King needs to be or how his undead making power works. This is why I'm saying you're assuming way too much. Where you think you have knowledge, you've actually got nothing. But I agree, you have to draw the Night King out, one way (Dothraki charge provocation) or another (insert alternative here). Note that the "alternative" is not a better strategy, it's just a different strategy. The strategy of "destroy every wight and White Walker in sight" is not a strategy that functionally exists. The only strategy is to draw out the Night King and eliminate that troop. All other strategies end in swift and utter defeat.

That is what they had to work with. And I fail to see how Dothraki charge had any influence on the Night King deciding to come out. If I had been in his position, I would have concluded "Oh, these guys are idiots, I'm gonna sit here sippin' iced tea until my dear wights bring me Raven's head". That is my point: their strategy relied on NK being an even more massive idiot than they were. Up until that point, Night King only came out when 1) battle had been finished already and he was going to turn corpses into wights, or 2) resistance was too stiff for wights. They had literally no reason to think NK will come out - unless they expected him to do so in order to kill the two remaining dragons they had. In which case baiting him with dragons being used as close air support was actually a logical move - except we know that was not part of the original plan, so that was clearly not what they were expecting.

Quote

 "Too stiff resistance" was certainly not possible. The Night King's motive here was simple: revenge on the Children of the Forest, targeting the Three-Eyed Raven. He wants - needs - to be the one to exact his revenge, personally, face-to-face. There was no danger when the White Walkers entered Winterfell. The battle was decidely won. Little did they know there was still one person in Winterfell able to make the final play. But to their credit, there's no possible way they could've anticipated the presence of a person "silent as a shadow, quick as a cat, light as a feather" built to weaponize their very environment against them and perform a pin-point steath assassination.

Again, unless they somehow know his personal motivations (in which case it should have been brought up), they had no reason to believe Night King will come for Bran in person. He could have sent a wight, or another White Walker, in his stead, and plan would have been a failure.

Quote

Look, Google "game of thrones" "wight" "tidal wave" whatever, you'll find it. The way they move is that the wights behind don't stop moving if the wights in front are slowed, they simply go on top of those, and the ones behind, on top of those, all running and climbing and rolling over. Your shield wall isn't going to do anything.

Found it:

It seems that you are correct. Problem is that we do not see the tidal wave when scene is seen from above, only when they crash into the Unsullied; must have been why I missed it. But that means that their choice of open battle is even more idiotic than I had thought: they should have at least dug ditches or something, if Winterfell is too small. Because now I remembered that they had actually seen wights do something like that before:

Quote

 We don't know anything meaningful about that story. This is a problem when you just hand-wave a conclusion based on a premise containing no meaningful information. The only information available is what we're seeing in this episode. And in this episode, yeah, we're seeing that a conventional victory is impossible.

Are you forgetting Nan's stories? And besides, the entire premise of the show goes against "conventional victory is impossible" conclusion: if it had been impossible, at least in terms of surviving if not destroying the enemy, Andals should have found an empty continent when they had arrived.

Quote

 He didn't have to, but he did. If there's any poor strategy here, it's employed by the Night King. But then that depends on what he really wanted to accomplish. The fact that he shows emotion in confidence (smirked at Dany) and has to be the one to kill Bran says he was in some way still emotionally invested in his former self. Seems to play parallel to Dany in that, at the critical hour, he made a choice based on emotion and it cost him the game. Yet, again, for all intents and purposes his strategy worked as well as any other. Again, there is no possible way to account for the one girl whose life had fashioned her into a Night King assassin to actually not only exist, but to be in the battle itself.

And I repeat again: if your strategy relies on the enemy being an idiot, then your strategy is faulty. I do not remember it ever being explained why they expect the Night King to play into their hands. I have no problem with Night King being an idiot; what I do have a problem with is that the entire strategy of the living side depends on that one assumption which, as far as they knew, could have been false. Which brings me back to what I wrote earlier in this post: "They had literally no reason to think NK will come out - unless they expected him to do so in order to kill the two remaining dragons they had. In which case baiting him with dragons being used as close air support was actually a logical move - except we know that was not part of the original plan, so that was clearly not what they were expecting."

Again, they provided no explanation for how they expected to find the Night King, how they expected to make him come out, what were contingency plans in the case that dragon fire did not work...

Quote

You could fire your missiles blindly, sure.

Quote

Again, the horde is shrouded in darkness. Firing arrows into a huge wall of darkness is pointless, especially if you've got a limited supply of dragonglass heads. You would want to make every one of those count, not just blindly send them streaming into a wall of darkness when there's no way to know if you've even hit something. The only way to actually be sure you're engaging the enemy is to engage the enemy.

Not dragonglass arrows, fire arrows. The point of firing arrows is to set wights on fire so that you can see where the enemy is.

Even firing blindly, hitting an army should not be impossible, as long as arrows are properly spaced.

Quote

Oh is it that easy? Just hit the wights then pull back. Unless you're immediately swarmed by wights, right? Since it all took place in pitch darkness, we have no information with which to assess anything. Yet you're talking like your strategy cannot possible be resisted or thwarted in any way. Just rinse and repeat. It's a walk in the park against the magical undead horde. Come on, man.

Again, wights are flammable and tightly packed. Just a few arrows hitting would be enough to reveal position of their army, and as far as I know, horses are faster than wights.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×