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Wagshell

Great battle plan! Dubious tactics discussion.

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5 minutes ago, Wik said:

Ahhhh!!! You're a clever one!!!! 

I get it though, send thousands to their death because they are probably only useful while leading a spearhead charge. Soldiers on horseback couldn't possibly have done anything else. 

Don't adjust.

Just like any Unsullied probably can't even ride a horse. They are only infantry with spears. Don't use a sword. Cause if you do, you're a waste. 

Why didn't they just lock their phalanx in and push all the dumb undead away from Winterfell anyhow? Then they could stab them all to death and just win, AMIRITE?! 

They did lock shields, but its only good to its front.....as its 100k of undead you can bet that they will flow around the formation.....and attack from all sides, and the flank and rear of a shield wall is vulnerable.

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6 minutes ago, Wik said:

Ahhhh!!! You're a clever one!!!! 

I get it though, send thousands to their death because they are probably only useful while leading a spearhead charge. Soldiers on horseback couldn't possibly have done anything else. 

Yes, they would have been little worth otherwise.Just trapped in a press of the hoard.

They had a chance to try and see if a full cavalry charge would work. Otherwise their only use would have been as unarmoured infantry. 

Your comment does make me smile though. 

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

It's a suicide stand, not a suicide rush. Theon, for instance, probably knew he was going to die before the battle started, but he didn't charge at the first zombies to show up. He saved his suicide charge for the Night King. 

The purpose of reserves tactically is to have uncommitted forces that your commanders can deploy where needed as events unfold. The advantage of having such reserves be cavalry is that men on horseback can move more swiftly, natch. 

Couldn't agree more...

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2 minutes ago, darmody said:

The purpose of reserves tactically is to have uncommitted forces that your commanders can deploy where needed as events unfold. The advantage of having such reserves be cavalry is that men on horseback can move more swiftly, natch. 

Move where. 

Move how. 

Once the hoard is pressing against you its almost all over. 

One of us is not as clever as they think they are, we shall just have to differ on which one it is. 

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2 minutes ago, ferrelhadley said:

Move where. 

Move how. 

Once the hoard is pressing against you its almost all over. 

One of us is not as clever as they think they are, we shall just have to differ on which one it is. 

The horde was only coming from one direction, it seemed. Dothraki could have been deployed from miles away, after the zombies were committed to the Unsullied, and hit them where they were more vulnerable. 

The fire trench could have been dug with enough room for horses to maneuver in front of the castle. Not so as they could charge en masse, but the Dothraki didn't seem to be any better on horseback than they would have been on foot after contact with dead. 

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It's worth noting as well that the dead were apparently waiting in the dark and hadn't started attacking. Now, we know that they probably would attack in the dark eventually, but seeing as any daylight at all could make a huge difference, why rush to get the battle started early?

 

Very little use of artillery and archers to thin out the dead first too. They just went straight to hand to hand combat in the dark. Firing off the catapults before the charge could have helped illuminate things and give an idea of what they were riding into.

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It was pretty bad and confusing.

The best (not irony) part of the tactics was imo the trench to set on fire but the problem was that they didn't have any reliable way to set it on fire. They should have had several trenches and a reliable way to set it on fire.

stupid things imo:

- they basically sacrificed the Dothraki by sending that into complete darkness

- firing cannonballs at wights when the Dothraki are basically already there. I really thought they would take down some the horseriders. Also, why not fire as many of the stone balls as possible before you launch a real attack?

- not sure why it took Jon and Dany so long to engage in the wight with their dragons

- it seemed like the dragons used their fire breath like 6 times during the whole battle

- the Unsullied apparently had only the spears. They should have given them daggers too as spears aren't that usefull in close combat.

- Davos should give signals but he leaves the walls to greet Mel

- Davos orders the gates to be opened for Mel although Mel comes right from the direction where the wights are and for all we know she could be a disguised WW.

- Lyanna Mormont orders to open the gate although she doesn't see who is knocking on it

- no wildfire (but I guess that no one there knows how to create it. How about burning oil or Tyrion's wine and then a lighted match then?)

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Posted (edited)

The Dothraki could have literally just kited the dead round, pelting them with dragonglass flaming arrows. They are notorious for hit and runs with their horseback archery skills.

Large bonfires should have been utilized  on the battlefield so you know where their positions are.

The moat should have been much larger and filled with pitch.

Every infantry soldier should have been  inside of the moat.

The unsullied should have been utilized to keep the dead from crossing the moat.

They should then have someone refilling the moat with fuel.

The entire field should have been covered in pitch and wood and set ablaze when the dead are running on it. Remember the largest fire the north had ever seen? This one should have been larger.

Catapults and trebuchets should have been in the keep.

The walls should have been manned.

Drop pitch from your walls if your first line of defense is breached. 

Almost all their troops should have been archers covering the battlefield with arrows.

Anyone who is not an archer should be wielding a spear and shield and trained in how to create a damn shield wall.

Dragons should have been used defensively.

Edited by longest night

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I forgot to mention that another "great tactics" was that the only mass coordination signals for the whole battles were apparently Davos waving his tiny torches and lighting up that trench. How about a horn or something like that to signal an attack, a retreat and so on? Or did they really think that Brienne's voice was enough?

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8 minutes ago, longest night said:

The entire field should have been covered in pitch and wood and set ablaze when the dead are running on it. Remember the largest fire the north had ever seen? This one should have been larger.

a good point tbh

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42 minutes ago, Jora the Explorer said:

They did lock shields, but its only good to its front.....as its 100k of undead you can bet that they will flow around the formation.....and attack from all sides, and the flank and rear of a shield wall is vulnerable.

 

My comment was a joke....his assertion is that if Cavalry aren't charging across a wide open field they are worthless. My point is then is the Unsullied aren't locked in Phalanx they must also be absolutely worthless. Or we can assume that because you have a shield and spear, or a horse and sword, you maybe able to do more than ONE thing well. 

41 minutes ago, ferrelhadley said:

Yes, they would have been little worth otherwise.Just trapped in a press of the hoard.

They had a chance to try and see if a full cavalry charge would work. Otherwise their only use would have been as unarmoured infantry. 

Your comment does make me smile though. 

 

You're ignorance is astounding.....they are light cavalry. Built to hit quick and rip through an enemy or stay at range and pepper them and wear them down. This was a full blown HEAVY cavalry-like charge.

Which they AREN'T.

You are also amazingly ignorant to what a counter charge is. You keep your cavalry to the rear or the flanks, so that you can counter charge and flank and allocate them where you need/want them, not to waste them in a forlorn charge in advance. It was dumb and your justification is worse. Please, just stop with your profound military knowledge and tactics. 

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Posted (edited)

I should also point out that they should have had an escape plan for if my tactics above failed. The crypts have secret passages out. They could have had Winterfell setup to just burn as one giant trap and when things start looking bad, retreat. Live to fight another day. 

The entire north should have been evacuated long before the Night King showed up.

Edited by longest night

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Okay, the tactics were clearly very poor, but some of the suggestions above clearly rely on an amount of resources and time that clearly weren't available. Remember that last episode was the first time they discovered the battle was going to be that night. 

 

This almost infinite supply of pitch seems unlikely and until a couple of days before, manpower was not in great supply. They could have planned how to use their forces much better, but I don't think they had time to build more trenches and bonfires everywhere.

I just don't see why all of the soldiers had to be out in the open in the dark waiting to face the horde on their terms.

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2 hours ago, Wagshell said:

Okay, the tactics were clearly very poor, but some of the suggestions above clearly rely on an amount of resources and time that clearly weren't available. Remember that last episode was the first time they discovered the battle was going to be that night. 

 

This almost infinite supply of pitch seems unlikely and until a couple of days before, manpower was not in great supply. They could have planned how to use their forces much better, but I don't think they had time to build more trenches and bonfires everywhere.

I just don't see why all of the soldiers had to be out in the open in the dark waiting to face the horde on their terms.

Isn't not knowing the movement of the enemy also terrible? They relied on guys coming down from the Wall, even though they knew the Wall had fallen, but they sent no scouts, Bran didn't use his ravens to spy on the dead, nor did Dany with her dragons.

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Posted (edited)

What battle plan? 

People plan battles? 

Noooooo waaaaaay dude. 

Why did we just wing it then? 

- everybody at Winterfell. 

Edited by RhaenysBee

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3 hours ago, longest night said:

The entire field should have been covered in pitch and wood and set ablaze when the dead are running on it. Remember the largest fire the north had ever seen? This one should have been large

THIS! There should have been a lot fore fire - barrels of pitch/oil lit up, everyone should have a torch, dragons should have lit up the field /nearby woods to begin with to see the enemy , wood chained up the walls to light up , big bonfires through out the field , just fire and more fire 

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Just now, nymeria_2321 said:

THIS! There should have been a lot fore fire - barrels of pitch/oil lit up, everyone should have a torch, dragons should have lit up the field /nearby woods to begin with to see the enemy , wood chained up the walls to light up , big bonfires through out the field , just fire and more fire 

Wasted all that time getting useless dragonglass. They should have just been making pitch.

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The dragons could have been better used, particularly in the beginning of the battle. Scouting, burning up a lot of wights at once. Instead of just smashing into one another and enjoying the view above the clouds.

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1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

How did the entire 100k Dothraki horde die in 30 seconds?

 

Cause they are gud in combat....they really shell shocked and devastated the undead horde.....I don't get how they recovered and breached Winterfell TBH :lmao:

 

43 minutes ago, nymeria_2321 said:

THIS! There should have been a lot fore fire - barrels of pitch/oil lit up, everyone should have a torch, dragons should have lit up the field /nearby woods to begin with to see the enemy , wood chained up the walls to light up , big bonfires through out the field , just fire and more fire 

This isn't a BAD idea but it isn't great, in retrospect.....I think most of us would agree likely any pitch that was on fire would have been snuffed out by the NK and the random swirly clouds of cold they conjure up. 

 

Still, the fact that the OP actually took even 15 seconds and came up with a dozen ideas that D&D just didn't even consider or care to think about is astounding.....I feel like we could all make it on HBO. Well except that guy who thinks charging Cavalry into an undead horde seemed like a legit strat :uhoh:

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