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Wagshell

Great battle plan! Dubious tactics discussion.

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3 hours ago, nyser1 said:

How did the entire 100k Dothraki horde die in 30 seconds?

It's too bad that they weren't good with bows that could reach longer than Westerosi bows. And that the walls were so jam packed that there wouldn't have been any place for them to shoot burning arrows like the handful of warriors they bothered to put up there. /sarcasm

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A few things...

1) wasn't dragonglass needed only for the white walkers, while fire needed for the undead? Just curious.

2) lack of time to create a proper defensive position doesn't preclude advance planning. Maybe the wall being breached wasn't anticipated, but wherever the battle was to be fought you would have the same needs (lots of fire).

3) why are the white walkers doing a frontal assault on a (so to speak) prepared defensive position when they could flank it and storm the castle from the other three sides. Not to mention getting at Bran a lot earlier in his staycation...

 

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I mentioned in another thread, but this seems more appropriate.  Start you defensive battles at WF if you must, but the Great War should have been over several retreating battles at locations where the dead army can be bottle necked, eg the Twins, the Moat, the Vale, etc.  The Dothraki and dragons could hit and run them during their March.  

The WF battle plan made no sense starting with the silly pretext motivation they gave the NK for wanting to kill Bran personally. 

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32 minutes ago, Wild Bill said:

A few things...

1) wasn't dragonglass needed only for the white walkers, while fire needed for the undead? Just curious.

2) lack of time to create a proper defensive position doesn't preclude advance planning. Maybe the wall being breached wasn't anticipated, but wherever the battle was to be fought you would have the same needs (lots of fire).

3) why are the white walkers doing a frontal assault on a (so to speak) prepared defensive position when they could flank it and storm the castle from the other three sides. Not to mention getting at Bran a lot earlier in his staycation...

 

1.  They both kill undead, V steel and dragon glass kill WW. 

2.  They had all of season 7, I'd say at least a year.

3  .I thought they were defending  multiple  walls.

 

 

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I guess most of us hoped for a realistic siege with odds evened by clever tactics and some suicidal/heroic sorties aimed to slay a WW and put down large chunk of the horde in one blow.

Instead we were given the tension of a nice Zombie Apocalypse movie. It's not so bad.

The initial idiot charge was due to Dothraki being expensive and expendable both from the point of telling the story and the story itself. I think it's nice to assume that they got too fired up (LOL). As for ridiculous order of battle - the Jon's masterplan was - yet again - to lose his whole army (the spikes inside walls! he planned that even before the war council!) and save the world by his personal heroism in the last seconds. His repeated failures in this respect (and being saved in the last second by another, more reasonable character) make a great comedy relief that is necessary in such a grim tale.

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The plan was pretty silly tbh, I mean they were fighting an army of undead numbering the hundreds or thousands. An enemy with no fear, no tiring out, who are pretty much immortal and who get resurrected enemies added to their ranks when the leader feels he needs some extra soldiers.

Plus they fought at night against "monsters" who clearly don't really need eyes to see an enemy.

I'd have kept the cavalry back as a massive flanking attack, or to annoy the rear of the undead masses (assuming their numbers didn't go on for 10's of miles away.
And a shed load more flaming trenches would have been a good idea, they should have funneled them into deathzones with fire and pits etc. Then the dragons could have easy trapped targets.  They allowed the undead to move too freely on the battlefield before they were within range of the walls, and wasted all their Unsullied in a stupid impossible position with no real retreat option.

Also, that hill Jon and Danny looked down from, why the hell was it not plastered with trebuchets and other artillery? They had a clean line of sight to the advancing hordes, just rain fire on them.

Hell the ultimate tactic would have been to bury a mountain of wildfire in the ground or even within Winterfell. Let them all come pouring in and nuke the whole dammed lot. Then send in dragons, cavalry and finally foot soldier to mop up anything left "alive".

 

Finally, how he hell has Winterfell survived so long as such a terribly designed castle? I mean it has one gate sure that is easy to hold. Bu it has but a single defensive wall, no inner walls and no central keep that could be totally sealed off should attackers get inside. There's no way such a place should have stood for thousands of years. It would have been overrun even without the undead masses.

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Have we addressed the shirtless/Rag and light animal fur wardrobe of the Dothraki in winter time? Let alone combat....

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

Have we addressed the shirtless/Rag and light animal fur wardrobe of the Dothraki in winter time? Let alone combat...

I'm pretty certain they had winters in Esos, and IKEA did run out of rugs.!!!

Edited by Jora the Explorer
Edit

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5 minutes ago, Jora the Explorer said:

I'm pretty certain they had winters in Esos, and IKEA did run out of rugs.!!!

An apocalyptic war without at least 100k dothraki deaths is considered a dull affair.

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Dothraki apparently aren't skilled in horse archery. You know, hit and run tactics? A horse can probably outrun a dead man...

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Posted (edited)

The plan was a disaster again! Both dargons were up and above and couldn’t even see Davos signal. Since they couldn’t see shouldn’t one of them come closer to the battlefield? Then the dead are reaching for the walls and there are no dragons again to shower them with flames. The Calvary wasn’t needed, the dragons should be the ones breaking the lines. They were two. The one should do best to protect the castle and the other watching for the night king. 

Edited by Nightwish

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The show runners always choose cinematic splendor over cohesive writing / plot mechanics, the latter of which they don't even understand beyond a dink.

The cavalry charge was dumb, even though it was cavalry and they had flaming swords they should've waited for the dead to come closer so they can use their dragons and archers as well as the Dothraki all at the same time. Something I thought of shortly after watching the episode, and others have pointed out, is that they should've flanked the dead when they were beginning to breach the trench. 

Another reason it was stupid is that they know the Night King has a dragon, so he could toasted their asses far from the safety of their own dragons. 

Despite it being a dumb move however, its actually absurd and senseless this enormous mounted horde armed with flaming weapons that the wights are highly vulnerable to lasted all but 30 seconds, very dumb. They should've dealt massive damage to the wights. Meanwhile the rest of the troops are able to hold of this mass of the undead for much longer......

Having so few troops defending Bran was stupid, but even more stupid was that it worked! (PS : RIP Theon no c*ck boy) 

Last but not least, having the non-combatants in the crypt. Hello you have the whole North / Vale to hide them in, so dumb......

Those are the 3 biggest dumbs. 

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The biggest "fail" was the Night King. All he needed to do was turn up and wait. Within a month or two the starvation would have brought most of Winterfell to near death. 

He could have turned up and stood, a dozen hours or so and the defenders would have been exhausted. 

I think that most of the nonsense fan fiction about using Dothraki to attack "flanks" or in reserve (for what) is just people who cannot concieve of being  in an overwhelmingly hopeless situation. That and people who think that its like a video game, you just click and the force moves, be it horses in very tight packed spaces or across kilometres of dark fields. 

It takes a huge amount of space to redeploy a squadron of cavalry, let alone something along the lines of supposedly 3 mounted divisions in the order of 30 000 horsemen. It will occupy a square kilometre or more and take an hour or more to perform simple manoeuvres like assembling to the side of the infantry if its deployed behind them. It would take hundreds of metres "at the advance" to bring it from standing to a steady gallop. 

The British\Allies only about 11000 cavalry at Waterloo, but that was over a battle 4km wide and many kilometres deep. Yet these battles developed over many hours with small attacks on small units, not a vast mindless host coming at you at about 9kmh.

 

I guess it is what it is. People who play video games think like videogamers. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/29/2019 at 8:15 AM, xander_blackfyre said:

What really is off to me is that there seemed to be no communication between anyone.  We saw them all sitting in on the strategy session and nobody thought to say hey this is stupid or this wont work or this would be much better.  

It should have been raining fire that entire battle, a literal field of fire lighting up the night sky

Dany was raining fire for as long as she was able.

Quote

 

and any and everything in it path people get tired but as long as there is oxygen fire will still burn.  Seriously who was in charge of the castle defense?  Every cask and keg of ale and wine they could find should have been brought in hell anything and everything flammable should have been. 

Ale and wine aren't really flammable.  Distilled spirits are.  ;)

Pitch and oil would have been a good idea on the walls, though.

 

Quote

Did Jon not inform them that they pile on one another to climb walls, as soon as they start to pile light them up.  Oh and our flamming trench is holding them at bay lets all stand here and watch them do nothing they are standing still you are not going to get better shots.

True that.  It seemed that the humans were taking a breather and recomposing themselves.  Normal stuff for a normal battle.  Unfortunately, this wasn't a normal battle.  Dany and Drogon were doing something then.   They were doing strafing runs on the dead.  Likely burning up stuff like most of the giants.

I wonder how many of the dead were burnt up by the dragons.

Quote

they are standing still you are not going to get better shots.  Oh and the trench is what 20 ft from the castle wall and there is only one there should have been multiple trenches dug that could have been lit make the AOTD approach as difficult as possible but nope lets give them free run all the way up . They knew the battle was happening at night yet they placed nothing out in the field so they could see the approaching enemy until they were right on top of them.  

 

 

There really wasnt much that could be done outside of creating bonfires.  Even then, how much can bee seen several hundreds of yards away at nighttime?  By people w/o any kind of optics?

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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On 4/29/2019 at 4:47 AM, Wagshell said:

Seemed like they really planned that well, right? I mean sending all the riders off on their own into the dark to fight a massive and unseen enemy?

Any other slightly surprising battle tactics you liked?

I took it that it was the Dothraki who decided to charge, as is the wont.   Their mindset resembles in a way that of the Frankish knights of he middle ages, who were purported to believe that nothing could withstand their onslaught, not even a brick wall.

Of course, the fact that they were massed out in front pretty much necessitated a charge.  Any retreat by them would have broken up the unsullied formation and spelled instant doom.

 

The charge was as effective as I would have expected, unfortunately.   In other words - not effective at all.

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3 hours ago, ferrelhadley said:

The biggest "fail" was the Night King. All he needed to do was turn up and wait. Within a month or two the starvation would have brought most of Winterfell to near death.

Apparently after waiting 8000 years, he suddenly became impatient. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ferrelhadley said:

The biggest "fail" was the Night King. All he needed to do was turn up and wait. Within a month or two the starvation would have brought most of Winterfell to near death. 

He could have turned up and stood, a dozen hours or so and the defenders would have been exhausted. 

I think that most of the nonsense fan fiction about using Dothraki to attack "flanks" or in reserve (for what) is just people who cannot concieve of being  in an overwhelmingly hopeless situation. That and people who think that its like a video game, you just click and the force moves, be it horses in very tight packed spaces or across kilometres of dark fields. 

It takes a huge amount of space to redeploy a squadron of cavalry, let alone something along the lines of supposedly 3 mounted divisions in the order of 30 000 horsemen. It will occupy a square kilometre or more and take an hour or more to perform simple manoeuvres like assembling to the side of the infantry if its deployed behind them. It would take hundreds of metres "at the advance" to bring it from standing to a steady gallop. 

The British\Allies only about 11000 cavalry at Waterloo, but that was over a battle 4km wide and many kilometres deep. Yet these battles developed over many hours with small attacks on small units, not a vast mindless host coming at you at about 9kmh.

 

I guess it is what it is. People who play video games think like videogamers. 

It has nothing to do with video games. 

I guess it is what it is, people who have no understanding of history and military tactics. :dunno:

You literally used the example of Waterloo, fought in 1815 with, ya know, MUSKETS. That completely changes the dynamic of a battle, along with, as you mentioned it was fought over a large area, in the OPEN. 

This was, or was supposed to be, a castle siege/battle. 

The fact you think that putting cavalry on a flank or having specific orders to harass an enemy from side or rear is "video game-like" but you think them charging straight in is an acceptable tactic proves your buffoonery. 

The one thing you did say that i will give absolute credit to though, is that the NK certainly could have sieged WF into submission with relative ease. 

No matter how you cut it though, the tactics, or rather lack there of, was astounding this episode. 

Edited by Wik

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Maybe the Night King was smarter than we realize and he only committed part of his forces to Winterfell. Meanwhile the main body bypassed Winterfell led by his second in command and are killing everyone and everything on their way to King's Landing. 

Cut scene to the second in command growing a crown on his head and becoming the next Night King. 

Battle battle battle 

Cersei is defeated and becomes a wight. 

The new NK sits down on the IT. 

Bran, seeing all this using his magic sight turns to Arya:

"Help us Jedi Stark, you're our only hope" 

Yeah, I could see it going down like that 

: )

 

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