[spoilers] So, in the end, the PTWP...

[Figdoni]

On 4/29/2019 at 7:35 PM, LadyBlackwater said:

I have always theorized that Jon is the PTWP. It's a song of Ice and Fire and Jon is both Ice and Fire. Then Arya killed the Night King. I'm so confused. This episode has completely turned me around.

I also think Jon is the PTWP... but I don’t read that “a song of fire and ice” refers to the Prines genetics or family houses.

The PTWP brings in a new age, and he has a song, the song of fire and ice... this refers to how his story will endure afterwards... how the Maesters will write the story of his reign of influence.... 

ie. Bringing people together to defeat the Icy threat to the North... and then the Firey threat to the South, in the form of Cersei and her wildfire. 

I expect a LOT of wildfire in the remaining episodes for the prophecy angle to be resolved. 

[LadyBlackwater]

3 hours ago, Figdoni said:

I also think Jon is the PTWP... but I don’t read that “a song of fire and ice” refers to the Prines genetics or family houses.

The PTWP brings in a new age, and he has a song, the song of fire and ice... this refers to how his story will endure afterwards... how the Maesters will write the story of his reign of influence.... 

ie. Bringing people together to defeat the Icy threat to the North... and then the Firey threat to the South, in the form of Cersei and her wildfire. 

I expect a LOT of wildfire in the remaining episodes for the prophecy angle to be resolved. 

Awesome! I love this! Beautifully worded.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Yeah I expect Dany to light up her Daddy's boom boom juice that Cersei sets out for her and burn KL to the ground.  

[Gianna Dorenberg]

On 4/29/2019 at 12:18 PM, Snikt5 said:

Jon might not have dealt the final blow to the NK, but he was the one that assembled everyone and rallied them. He convinced them all there was a great war to be had. Without Jon, the NK would have marched with no resistance. 

Disagree. Without Jon, we still have Arya. She doesn't need help. Apparently, she can defeat EVERYONE ALL BY HERSELF.

[divica]

Just now, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Disagree. Without Jon, we still have Arya. She doesn't need help. Apparently, she can defeat EVERYONE ALL BY HERSELF.

She would only need to run or wait hidden somewhere for the NK to come. She is so fast that no other ww can even touch her!

[Ceejtank]

On 4/29/2019 at 9:11 AM, Ferrum Aeternum said:

???? Is that supposed to be it? From a storytelling perspective, there has to be an endpoint for this character that brings all those coincidences (which GRRM himself first conceived of, mind you) into cohesion.

If you believe in fate (which this story sort of makes you do) then which character's fate was shaped to be a weapon against the forces of darkness more than Arya? 

 

I think they tied it all together with Melisande telling Arya she had a lot of killing to do..the scene with Arya, Clegane and Melisandre. Everything that happened was R'hillors plan, so she can kill the NK.

[House Cambodia]

4 minutes ago, Ceejtank said:

I think they tied it all together with Melisande telling Arya she had a lot of killing to do..the scene with Arya, Clegane and Melisandre. Everything that happened was R'hillors plan, so she can kill the NK.

But it was never explained, or even hinted at, throughout the series as to how or why Arya was TPTWP.

[Runaway Penguin]

6 hours ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Disagree. Without Jon, we still have Arya. She doesn't need help. Apparently, she can defeat EVERYONE ALL BY HERSELF.

Sorry but this is plain wrong. She was able to get there only because of everything else that happened. Would she ebe able to sneak in if Viseryon was not disabled and distracted? If Theon did not convince Night King he defeated the last obstacle on the way to Bran... If Beric did not save her. If Hound did not save her. And they would not save her if not drawn there by Jon. Same way she would not have everyone keeping the ice zombie s busy.

It's kinda like saying that without Red Leader, Han et al we still have Luke who can destroy the Death Star ALL BY HIMSELF 

 

And as for the prophecy at hand, PTWP does not have to kill the big bad personally. He is to lead people against the darkness - and win. Additional qualifiers may or may not apply, but they do not point to Arya.

 

Now expecting that defeating the darkness or leading people against it would actually involve directly AAR delivering the final blow would be a bit fairy tale formulaic. Same way Aragorn became a king and led the armies of Men against the darkness... But he did not slay Sauron. Sneaky ninja halflings did that. By the beginnign of the Shadow war I expected Sheridan to win by defeating Shadows... but it ended by him publicly shaming both Shadows and Vorlons into leaving the Milky Way alone for good. Same here. I do not mind Arya leading the final stab, it fitsd - where brute force and dragons fail, a sneaky assassin wins. It does nto invalidate the efforts of the others.

 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

6 hours ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Disagree. Without Jon, we still have Arya. She doesn't need help. Apparently, she can defeat EVERYONE ALL BY HERSELF.

Beric died the last time for her.

Sandor combated his PTSD for her.

Melisandre inspired her to her conclusion with the words of her dancing master.

 

She was taught by Syrio, Tywin, Jaquen, The Waif and The Hound. Jon gave her her first sword. Ned helped her start to learn and supported her every step.

But she did it all by herself? 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

4 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

But it was never explained, or even hinted at, throughout the series as to how or why Arya was TPTWP.

End of Season 4, when she gets on the boat at the saltpans, they are shovelling salt. She looks back at the smoking riverlands. Runs down the ship to the prow where we see its a woman warrior. Now I'm not saying that is intentional on D&Ds part. That is what happens in the books too. The ship is The Titan's Daughter. But the books allow us to see Azor Ahai in many characters. Like the dream of Brienne and Jaime with flaming swords. Arya wishes she has a flaming sword in the books too. In visions I'd assume all Valyrian steel appear to be on fire.

As for under a red star, everyone sees the comet. It appears after Arya's first 'rebirth' as Arry.

Waking dragons from stone, Jon is resurrected for her? He was stone cold dead.

She did receive 3 weapons-

Needle- from Jon Snow (water)

The Dagger- which led to the arrest of the Lion and the start of the war

Her staff- from Gendry, presumably Nissa Nissa.

My point isn't that she was always meant to be this. They decided it in the writing for 7. My point being that prophecy can be deciphered in many abstract ways. The only hard proof we have for TPTWP is the woods witch who says that he would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Last season they specifically had Jon say that maybe witches are not reliable sources of information. The prophecies shape our characters and that is how they have an affect. If it had been nearly any main character I probably could have done what I did above too.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

18 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

End of Season 4, when she gets on the boat at the saltpans, they are shovelling salt. She looks back at the smoking riverlands. Runs down the ship to the prow where we see its a woman warrior. Now I'm not saying that is intentional on D&Ds part. That is what happens in the books too. The ship is The Titan's Daughter. But the books allow us to see Azor Ahai in many characters. Like the dream of Brienne and Jaime with flaming swords. Arya wishes she has a flaming sword in the books too. In visions I'd assume all Valyrian steel appear to be on fire.

As for under a red star, everyone sees the comet. It appears after Arya's first 'rebirth' as Arry.

Waking dragons from stone, Jon is resurrected for her? He was stone cold dead.

She did receive 3 weapons-

Needle- from Jon Snow (water)

The Dagger- which led to the arrest of the Lion and the start of the war

Her staff- from Gendry, presumably Nissa Nissa.

My point isn't that she was always meant to be this. They decided it in the writing for 7. My point being that prophecy can be deciphered in many abstract ways. The only hard proof we have for TPTWP is the woods witch who says that he would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Last season they specifically had Jon say that maybe witches are not reliable sources of information. The prophecies shape our characters and that is how they have an affect. If it had been nearly any main character I probably could have done what I did above too.

this all makes sense, if you can piece it together like u have....but....arya was meant to kill cersei or so we were meant to believe. she has her list. 

I get Aragorn and his role, but he was never completely invested in fighting sauron directly, although he did combat saurons forces for years. do I feel hollow golum destroyed the ring - not Frodo? nope - Gollum was invested in the ring for centuries. 

the night king was not part of arya story - but she killed him? well ok...I just thought jon would do more, it was his story. Cersie and KL was part of arya, which she will do now. Jon was not the hero  - its arya - WTF?

I just feel hollow, that jons role was bringing people together, after all the build up, he just fumbled about about a bit. I guess after the war he will bring people together - that is what he is good at, but I am completely deflated about it all, still be might beat up a couple of gold mercs.  whoop...whoop...

 

 

[Gianna Dorenberg]

1 hour ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Sorry but this is plain wrong. She was able to get there only because of everything else that happened. Would she ebe able to sneak in if Viseryon was not disabled and distracted? If Theon did not convince Night King he defeated the last obstacle on the way to Bran... If Beric did not save her. If Hound did not save her. And they would not save her if not drawn there by Jon. Same way she would not have everyone keeping the ice zombie s busy.

It's kinda like saying that without Red Leader, Han et al we still have Luke who can destroy the Death Star ALL BY HIMSELF 

 

And as for the prophecy at hand, PTWP does not have to kill the big bad personally. He is to lead people against the darkness - and win. Additional qualifiers may or may not apply, but they do not point to Arya.

 

Now expecting that defeating the darkness or leading people against it would actually involve directly AAR delivering the final blow would be a bit fairy tale formulaic. Same way Aragorn became a king and led the armies of Men against the darkness... But he did not slay Sauron. Sneaky ninja halflings did that. By the beginnign of the Shadow war I expected Sheridan to win by defeating Shadows... but it ended by him publicly shaming both Shadows and Vorlons into leaving the Milky Way alone for good. Same here. I do not mind Arya leading the final stab, it fitsd - where brute force and dragons fail, a sneaky assassin wins. It does nto invalidate the efforts of the others.

 

 

1 hour ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Beric died the last time for her.

Sandor combated his PTSD for her.

Melisandre inspired her to her conclusion with the words of her dancing master.

 

She was taught by Syrio, Tywin, Jaquen, The Waif and The Hound. Jon gave her her first sword. Ned helped her start to learn and supported her every step.

But she did it all by herself? 

I was being sarcastic. I'm sure the writers could've wrote in something unbelievable where Arya magically appears out of thin air from 50 feet away bypassing a closed line of WWs and just wrecks every enemy, including the NK, in a TLJ moment of absurdness....

Oh, wait.

[Deminelle]

It will be the late Prince singing Purple Rain... getting stoned... by the masses who came to see a spectacular show at KL. They are disappointed when the Song of Ice and Fire turned to rain and the performer is a WW. First rock concert ever...

Hound will be the first to throw a stone...

 

[Han Snow]

5 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

End of Season 4, when she gets on the boat at the saltpans, they are shovelling salt. She looks back at the smoking riverlands. Runs down the ship to the prow where we see its a woman warrior. Now I'm not saying that is intentional on D&Ds part. That is what happens in the books too. The ship is The Titan's Daughter. But the books allow us to see Azor Ahai in many characters. Like the dream of Brienne and Jaime with flaming swords. Arya wishes she has a flaming sword in the books too. In visions I'd assume all Valyrian steel appear to be on fire.

As for under a red star, everyone sees the comet. It appears after Arya's first 'rebirth' as Arry.

Waking dragons from stone, Jon is resurrected for her? He was stone cold dead.

She did receive 3 weapons-

Needle- from Jon Snow (water)

The Dagger- which led to the arrest of the Lion and the start of the war

Her staff- from Gendry, presumably Nissa Nissa.

My point isn't that she was always meant to be this. They decided it in the writing for 7. My point being that prophecy can be deciphered in many abstract ways. The only hard proof we have for TPTWP is the woods witch who says that he would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. Last season they specifically had Jon say that maybe witches are not reliable sources of information. The prophecies shape our characters and that is how they have an affect. If it had been nearly any main character I probably could have done what I did above too.

All nice and dandy, but this particular story Dumb and Dumber are telling works better if Jon just remains dead. No fracking need to resurrect him if Arya is the One. Honestly, the flow of the story would work better. Sansa rallies the North and the Vale, Dany fries Cersei by herself, goes North to save it, Arya deals the deathblow to the Night King.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

5 minutes ago, Han Snow said:

All nice and dandy, but this particular story Dumb and Dumber are telling works better if Jon just remains dead. No fracking need to resurrect him if Arya is the One. Honestly, the flow of the story would work better. Sansa rallies the North and the Vale, Dany fries Cersei by herself, goes North to save it, Arya deals the deathblow to the Night King.

Would Arya have gone North for Sansa? Hot Pie tells her that Jon Snow is there. She wanted to get to Jon at the end of Season 4 too. Jon was the only character who could have pulled her in that direction

[Han Snow]

24 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Would Arya have gone North for Sansa? Hot Pie tells her that Jon Snow is there. She wanted to get to Jon at the end of Season 4 too. Jon was the only character who could have pulled her in that direction

Honestly, those are small details easily changed. Jon "Dumb Dumb" Snow is now a walking talking embodiment of failure. What is his purpose, why was he so important to be resurrected? I LOVE Arya, yet I can't enjoy D&D crapping JS again in order to propel her significance . They did it in the battle of the bastards with Sansa, and now again, just with Arya. I'd rather if Jon remained dead than to see him abused like this. and I DO not trust the writers to turn him into wise Aragorn king type character, and it would not fit him at all because they wrote him as a dum dum who can't rule or make good decisions. And if they are to use him as a tool to propel the wise queen Dany or even worse Sansa, gods, i shudder at the thought. It would have been better if he stayed dead. Dumb and dumber butchered him enough. And they would have gotten their precious GOTCHA moment with it as well. Gods, how I despise this show and what they have done to it. If only Cogman was the showrunner...

[Aerys Blackfyre]

BTW, IMHO the whole Melissandre/blue eyes speech is just a coincidence that they tried to exploit to make us believe that they planned the NK scene a long time ago... in fact, this was the original line from season 4, and as you can read, the sentence ends with green eyes, the emphasis is on that (the blue eyes IMHO are just a reference to Polliver or Trant, or someone with blue eyes that Arya killed during her journey):

“I see a darkness in you, and in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again.”

they wanted to produce a hold-the-door-like effect, with the only difference that the Hodor scene was actually planned very carefully by GRRM, while the whole Arya/Mel scene was just a failed attempt of sensationalism

[Larger than Average Finger]

13 hours ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Disagree. Without Jon, we still have Arya. She doesn't need help. Apparently, she can defeat EVERYONE ALL BY HERSELF.

No, you are missing the point with her, she cannot defeat everyone, by herself, that has never even been hinted at.

What she can do is get to nearly ANYone.  Its hardly unusually that one of the hero's in a story becomes exception al what they do.

Need everyone dead, find someone with a couple of dragons.  Need a specific person dead, talk to this kid.

[Larger than Average Finger]

8 minutes ago, Aerys Blackfyre said:

BTW, IMHO the whole Melissandre/blue eyes speech is just a coincidence that they tried to exploit to make us believe that they planned the NK scene a long time ago... in fact, this was the original line from season 4, and as you can read, the sentence ends with green eyes, the emphasis is on that (the blue eyes IMHO are just a reference to Polliver or Trant, or someone with blue eyes that Arya killed during her journey):

“I see a darkness in you, and in that darkness, eyes staring back at me. Brown eyes, blue eyes, green eyes, eyes you'll shut forever. We will meet again.”

they wanted to produce a hold-the-door-like effect, with the only difference that the Hodor scene was actually planned very carefully by GRRM, while the whole Arya/Mel scene was just a failed attempt of sensationalism

It also perhaps points out the truth of prophecy, that its often made to fit after the fact, in order to reinforce the belief in the source. 

[Gianna Dorenberg]

12 minutes ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

No, you are missing the point with her, she cannot defeat everyone, by herself, that has never even been hinted at.

What she can do is get to nearly ANYone.  Its hardly unusually that one of the hero's in a story becomes exception al what they do.

Need everyone dead, find someone with a couple of dragons.  Need a specific person dead, talk to this kid.

Apparently, she can also leap 50 feet.