Jump to content
Aerys Blackfyre

[spoilers] So, in the end, the PTWP...

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Unless the prince that was promised actually has nothing to do with the great other and refers to something else entirely. 

That is the only thing I can think of to rationalize this choice, especially because they did emphasize the prince that was promised last season

That's what I am beginning to think.  Or that the Others aren't as defeated as we think they are.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Unless the prince that was promised actually has nothing to do with the great other and refers to something else entirely. 

That is the only thing I can think of to rationalize this choice, especially because they did emphasize the prince that was promised last season

I have less inkling now that before. I still think its either Dany or Jon or some combination of both.  Perhaps not only is the word for prince without gender it is also flexibly singular or plural. There are a few words in some languages like this and they usually relate to religious ideals.  Also, the problem with prophecies is some variance between their prediction and fulfillment, sometimes to the point of uncertainty about whether or not it was fulfilled. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Melisandre notoriously screws up prophecies.  Perhaps The Prince that was Promised does not refer to the Long Night.  In which case, what does it refer to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Snikt5 said:

Jon might not have dealt the final blow to the NK, but he was the one that assembled everyone and rallied them. He convinced them all there was a great war to be had. Without Jon, the NK would have marched with no resistance. 

This. Why is it necessary that Jon be the one to strike the final blow against the NK? It isn't. Every character at Winterfell had their role to play in that final sequence of events. 

If Jon had been the one to deliver the deathblow, people would be bitching about it being cliche and boring. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ferrum Aeternum said:

If Jon had been the one to deliver the deathblow, people would be bitching about it being cliche and boring. 

True.

I like that Arya did it. It fits so well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The prophecy states a leader will bring their people out of the darkness, not kill the big bad guy. Jon still fills the prophecy by bringing everyone together to fight the NK. If it wasn't for him, the North wouldn't have been united, they wouldn't have believed in the Army of the Dead, and Dany wouldn't have come to help fight them. Jon was a leader that lead them through the darkness. Arya was just a weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PTWP/AAR is not relevant for the show.

Arya was chosen so we wouldn't see Jon killing NK as that is perceived to be expected. And we know the "unexpected" takes the cake these days.

Overall, it is such a waste of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Bran Snow said:

The prophecy states a leader will bring their people out of the darkness, not kill the big bad guy. Jon still fills the prophecy by bringing everyone together to fight the NK. If it wasn't for him, the North wouldn't have been united, they wouldn't have believed in the Army of the Dead, and Dany wouldn't have come to help fight them. Jon was a leader that lead them through the darkness. Arya was just a weapon.

Bingo. 

I was thinking this morning about how improbable Arya's journey has been (going all the way back to AGOT / Season 1). 

- Jon has a sword made for her of a type rarely seen in Westeros; it is in fact more a Braavosi-style weapon.

- Once Ned discovers it, he wisely hires a swordsman to train her. A sword trainer, in King's Landing, who also happens to be the former captain of the house guard for the Sealord of Braavos. 

- Later Arya encounters another gentleman (perhaps the same one? who knows) from across the Narrow Sea who gives her a Braavosi coin and encourages her to travel there. 

- While in Braavos she continues her training with the deadliest cadre of assassins in the world.

?????? Is that supposed to be it? From a storytelling perspective, there has to be an endpoint for this character that brings all those coincidences (which GRRM himself first conceived of, mind you) into cohesion.

If you believe in fate (which this story sort of makes you do) then which character's fate was shaped to be a weapon against the forces of darkness more than Arya? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL, guys, you really want to find an explanation for shit in the show?! They never cared about prophecy stuff in the show. They never properly established anything about that, and they never gave a damn about internal consistency.

They thought it was a better idea to have Arya kill the Lich King. And it was actually a twist, which is the only thing these morons tried to do.

You recall that the Lich King was killed with Valyrian steel in the show, right? But somehow dragonfire - which is a magical ingredient of Valyrian steel and necessary to create it - couldn't kill the Lich King. How does this make sense? It doesn't. In the books no Other is going to withstand dragonfire. It might be difficult for the dragons to blast the Others with dragonfire, but if they do they will die.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, guys, you really want to find an explanation for shit in the show?! They never cared about prophecy stuff in the show. They never properly established anything about that, and they never gave a damn about internal consistency.

 

This!! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You recall that the Lich King was killed with Valyrian steel in the show, right? But somehow dragonfire - which is a magical ingredient of Valyrian steel and necessary to create it - couldn't kill the Lich King. How does this make sense? It doesn't.

All show the White Walkers have been unharmed by fire and able to put it out. 

Valyrian steel is supposedly forged with spells, I am not really sure about dragon fire but it can be reforged into new weapons with out dragon fire that are of equal effectiveness. Its far more likely to be good quality alloys that can resist the cold of the White Walkers. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, guys, you really want to find an explanation for shit in the show?! They never cared about prophecy stuff in the show. They never properly established anything about that, and they never gave a damn about internal consistency.

They thought it was a better idea to have Arya kill the Lich King. And it was actually a twist, which is the only thing these morons tried to do.

You recall that the Lich King was killed with Valyrian steel in the show, right? But somehow dragonfire - which is a magical ingredient of Valyrian steel and necessary to create it - couldn't kill the Lich King. How does this make sense? It doesn't. In the books no Other is going to withstand dragonfire. It might be difficult for the dragons to blast the Others with dragonfire, but if they do they will die.

How did Arya know she had to stab him EXACTLY where the dragonglass was when the Children created him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ferrelhadley said:

All show the White Walkers have been unharmed by fire and able to put it out. 

Valyrian steel is supposedly forged with spells, I am not really sure about dragon fire but it can be reforged into new weapons with out dragon fire that are of equal effectiveness. Its far more likely to be good quality alloys that can resist the cold of the White Walkers. 

Common fire, yes, not wildfire or dragonfire. In the books it is quite clear that spells and dragonfire create Valyrian steel, and that it is the absence of dragons that ended its production (along with the loss of the knowledge of the spells). It can and is reforged, especially by Qohorik armorers, but it cannot forged.

If Valyrian steel can kill this Lich King creature then dragonfire should, too. Dragons are fire made flesh. They are much more fiery than cold steel, even Valyrian steel, could ever hope to be.

And the show never established why Valyrian steel works against the Others at all. The books has this obscure reference to dragon steel which may be an early variant of Valyrian steel but this, too, highlights the dragon aspect in the creation of such steel. Meaning that dragons themselves work likely infinitely better than, you know, just cold steel.

4 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

How did Arya know she had to stab him EXACTLY where the dragonglass was when the Children created him?

Did she stab him there? No idea. In any case, since it wasn't dragonglass but the Valyrian steel dagger it shouldn't have worked, anyway, no? Didn't they establish a couple of seasons back that dragonglass harms them because it was used in their creation? This is not likely going to be George's explanation, I imagine, but who knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's power in Gendry's sperm - stick 'em with the pointy end ....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Common fire, yes, not wildfire or dragonfire. In the books it is quite clear that spells and dragonfire create Valyrian steel, and that it is the absence of dragons that ended its production (along with the loss of the knowledge of the spells). It can and is reforged, especially by Qohorik armorers, but it cannot forged.

If Valyrian steel can kill this Lich King creature then dragonfire should, too. Dragons are fire made flesh. They are much more fiery than cold steel, even Valyrian steel, could ever hope to be.

And the show never established why Valyrian steel works against the Others at all. The books has this obscure reference to dragon steel which may be an early variant of Valyrian steel but this, too, highlights the dragon aspect in the creation of such steel. Meaning that dragons themselves work likely infinitely better than, you know, just cold steel.

Did she stab him there? No idea. In any case, since it wasn't dragonglass but the Valyrian steel dagger it shouldn't have worked, anyway, no? Didn't they establish a couple of seasons back that dragonglass harms them because it was used in their creation? This is not likely going to be George's explanation, I imagine, but who knows.

You're preaching to the choir here. LOL D&D said in the segment after the show that she stabbed him exactly where the dragonglass was. 

Edit: Personally, I've always believed that dragon steel isn't Valyrian steel at all, but dragon scales. 

Edited by Ice Queen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Lord Varys said:

Common fire, yes, not wildfire or dragonfire.

They had not been tested against it. .

Quote

In the books it is quite clear that spells and dragonfire create Valyrian steel,

This is not the books and the books use the "unreliable narrator" device in terms of old events. So no one really knows how it was forged. But here you are using books unreliable guesses to make definite assertions about the show. 

Quote

If Valyrian steel can kill this Lich King creature then dragonfire should, too. 

Hmmm its hard to argue with someone who invents things to pick holes in a plot. 

There are enough holes without made up assertions. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, ferrelhadley said:

They had not been tested against it. .

This is not the books and the books use the "unreliable narrator" device in terms of old events. So no one really knows how it was forged. But here you are using books unreliable guesses to make definite assertions about the show. 

Hmmm its hard to argue with someone who invents things to pick holes in a plot. 

There are enough holes without made up assertions. 

Wel, okay, I know I should not try to use reason or rationality or consistency when talking about the show.

But there is still no reason given why dragonfire didn't kill the Lich King or why Valyrian steel can, is there? Having the dragon fail at that was just a stupid attempt at a twist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Arya is the greatest assassin they had, why people have problem with this? Jon already killed 2 WW, he doesn't need to kill every WW out there, Arya is a Faceless man, she is more suitable for assasinating someone.

There is no way Jon could pass Night King's WW guards and kill him, he would die instead.

Arya could help Robb by saying Tywin's name to Jaqen H'ghar in the War of the five kings, but she was too late, now she helped Jon instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a bit puzzled. Wasn't Melisandre originally going to Dany because she could be the PTWP? I have no idea which darkness is still lurking, the wickedness of humans is impossible to extinguish. That evil is Cersei.

I guess they just keep silent about it. It's better than shoehorning it in at the last bit when some nobody makes a toast to the PTWP and the viewer goes "what?'

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

Arya is the greatest assassin they had, why people have problem with this? Jon already killed 2 WW, he doesn't need to kill every WW out there, Arya is a Faceless man, she is more suitable for assasinating someone.

There is no way Jon could pass Night King's WW guards and kill him, he would die instead.

Arya could help Robb by saying Tywin's name to Jaqen H'ghar in the War of the five kings, but she was too late, now she helped Jon instead.

Yes, and her path toward that outcome started with a sword she was given by...Jon. He set her on the path that eventually led to her slaying the NK.

So in no way does this outcome break with prophecy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×