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What will be the final WTF moment?

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6 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Would be cool if Lady Stoneheart's mission is to keep Arya alive though.

That might check out, Arya in a "wolf dream" or warg state is the one that found Catlyn and dragged her body out of the stream to be found by the BwB....

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4 hours ago, alienarea said:

Bran's eyes turn red because he's R'hollor (he named his direwolf Summer). Everybody dies from endless summer.

I read this article along the same lines. It's lengthy, but a good read------

In an interview with Time Magazine last year, G.R.R.M. explicitly made sure to bring up Beric Dondarrion.

"he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing"

So Beric is a "fire wight". And thats obviously foreshadowing something. The big question is, if the Night King animates the ice wights, who then animates the fire wights?

Here are the Facts:

  1. Bran is a powerful warg. We know he gets visions of the past, present and future…and can manipulate the past to help save his future self. We don't yet know the extent of this power.

  2. We knew the Night King can reanimate the dead into evil still-dead soldiers. But this episode we learned he can also manipulate snow and ice at will, sending a full blown blizzard. (This is key.)

  3. Followers of the Lord of Light believe that their Lord is always at war with his evil opposite diety. Theres always a dichotomy. Light vs Dark. Good vs Bad. Fire vs Ice. Everything in this world has an antithesis.

  4. The 3 eyed raven seems to be NK's eternal adversary. He intentionally killed the OG 3 eyed raven, and ever since he's been after Bran.

  5. The lord of light supposedly has a "purpose" for everyone. Consequently, everyone supposedly brought back by the lord of light helped Arya defeat the Night King.

  6. Bran gave Arya the dagger, and offered himself as bait. So like the Lord of Light, everything Bran has done recently also ultimately leads to Arya defeating the Night King.

What we can take from this…

  • If the Night King is Lord of Death, Night, and Ice…he should have an equal opposite. That opposite would of course be the Lord of Life, Light, and Fire (ie. The Lord of Light) .

  • The Night King is a physical entity, his opposite should be too. The Lord of Light likely has a physical presence (or a physical champion at the very least). So who is it? they don't ever explicitly show any other being with NK's level of power (or do they?)

  • If the Night King can reanimate the dead, his "light" opposite should have an equal level of power to bring life. And if NK's reanimated dead fight for evil, then his opposite's reanimated dead would fight for good/the living.

  • George R.R. Martin confirmed this logic, with his mentioning the existence of the "Fire Wight". Beric, Jon, (and maybe the Hound) are one of them. So the above theory that the Lord of Light is the NK's opposite holds water

  • If the NK can manifest snow and ice at will. Then his opposite should be able to manifest fire at will. And maybe...communicate with others through it.

  • Bran and the Lord of Light are working towards the same goal.

  • The 3 Eyed Raven is the NK's ultimate adversary….the force hes always at battle with.

The simplest explanation to all of this ...The 3 Eyed Raven is the Night King's opposite. The NK's opposite is the Lord of Light. Therefore, Bran = the Lord of Light (or at least what people think is the Lord of Light due to the signs he brings)

So how does this play out?


The Dagger Arch

First consider the dagger.

The entire storyline from Season 1 on revolves around the dagger. And the entire dagger story is intrinsically linked to Bran.

We also know the dagger is ancient, as it appears in Sam's book. Its been passed down from generation to generation, as all existing Valerian steel has been. https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/9/97/Valyrian_steel_dagger_game_of_thrones_catspaw_blade_sam.png/revision/latest?cb=20170723084654

We don't actually know for sure who owned the dagger, or where the assassin got it. Littlefinger claims it was his but later denies it. Even if it was Littlefinger's, its never explained where he got it. This is important.


The Theory

It all but obvious at this point, Bran has been manipulating the plotline the entire time. He knew exactly how the battle was going to end. He knew exactly how to kill the Night King, because he set the trap himself. While warging during the battle, he was likely manipulating events to lead to the final conclusion.

Everything he has done has revolved around getting the dagger to Arya and getting her safely to the NK. That plan was set in motion all the way back in Season 1.

Future Bran made sure that dagger was sent to kill his childhood self. He put the key piece in play. He then warged into Summer to kill the assassin.

Farther back than that, the dagger may have belonged to Aerys Targarian (passed down through their family), and Bran messed with him to make sure it got where it needed to go. (Maybe Jaime or Littlefinger picked it up after the Mad King was slain).

Arya's training was also crucial/pre-planned. She would have never trained to kill without....1) Bran's assassination attempt being pinned on Tyrion (because of the dagger). And 2) King Robert's Death.

We already know how he could have manipulated the assassination. He could have also been warged into the wild boar that killed King Robert, if it were for the good of the realm.

Melesandre told Arya last episode what Syrio Forel told her before he was killed, "What do we say to the god of death? Not today". Homage to the fact that her training was all destined from the beginning.

All of the war and death that was sparked because of Bran. He knew it would happen, but he saw how the alternative story lines would play out, where the Night King wins. He sacrificed whoever he had to for the good of the realm. Much like lord Varys (who he spoke to through the flames after he was cut)

All of the "magical Lord of Light moments" that are supposedly the God's work, are actually Bran manipulating the past, resurrecting people and making sure Arya got the knife and made it to kill NK.

  • Beric getting brought back to life so many times….it wasn't the shitty priest saying a prayer. Both he and Melesandre said he shouldn't have that power. In fact, it was Bran bringing him back to life so he could help Arya during the battle.

  • The hound surviving. Septon Ray told him he thought he was a corpse. He also told him that he pretty much died multiple times while he was recovering, but he kept coming back to life. After he comes back to life, he's fighting for good. Again, hound ended up a key figure in getting Arya to the NK.

  • Jon coming back. No evidence again to suggest Melesandre's prayer did it. She completely gave up, and he didn't come back to life until a while after.

  • The trench lighting on fire…again, it didn't seem to be Melesandre's words that did it. You could see she was getting frustrated/confused when it wasn't working at first. It was actually Bran summoning fire.

  • Lord Varys hearing the voice in the flames after he was cut....which is said to be what lead to him ending up in King's Landing and rising to power. After that scene with the priestess in the Pyramid, it cut to Bran’s face.

We know Bran is the most powerful living being other than the Night King. We know both he and the Lord of Light are working towards the same goal, and both manipulate the storyline.

It makes sense that Bran is the Lord of light, and all past 3 Eyed Ravens were also the Lord of Light. Or at the very least they’re representatives of him .

Where was Bran during the battle? Making shit happen. This would make the Night King's death wayyy less anticlimactic than it was.

Some interesting questions then come up if this all plays out. When the Whites die, their wights they turned die.

If Bran dies, does Jon automatically die too?

Now that the Night King is dead, whos the Lord of Light's new opposite to balance out the dichotomy? (Cersei? Danny? perhaps)


Further Evidence

  • Bran's powers are strongest by the Weirwood trees. Aka the "Heart Trees" The trees were worshiped by the First Men (and Children of the forest?) as gods. They're known as "Heart Trees". The lord of light is also known as the "Heart of Fire", with a symbolic heart.

  • The Children of the Forest brought back Benjen as a fire-wielding fire wight. They're obviously the key to the power of both the NK and the Lord of Light. They could have created the 3 eyed raven/LoL the same as they created the NK as a counter balance

  • Bran (or the OG 3 eyed raven) are likely who drove Aerys II Targaryen mad, whispering for him to "Burn them all". He's been fighting the future battle from the past for a long time.

  • In the episode followup commentary, they implied they randomly picked Arya to kill the NK, and wove the episode to heighten the surprise. Its hard to believe that decision was really random

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1 hour ago, LadyBlackwater said:

All of the war and death that was sparked because of Bran. He knew it would happen, but he saw how the alternative story lines would play out, where the Night King wins. He sacrificed whoever he had to for the good of the realm. Much like lord Varys (who he spoke to through the flames after he was cut)

All of the "magical Lord of Light moments" that are supposedly the God's work, are actually Bran manipulating the past, resurrecting people and making sure Arya got the knife and made it to kill NK.

 

Not to be rude, but Bran being solely responsible and manipulating everything and everyone throughout the show/books would be the dumbest thing ever. I can't really think of anything more disappointing and unsatisfactory then "nothing really mattered because Bran was doing it all" It might of well been all a dream in the end. Considering GRRM's comments on the botched ending of Lost, i highly doubt it will go down this route.

But either way, in no universe are D&D capable of even attempting to explain all that in the show so its null. I'd be surprised if there is any more time travel stuff in the show at all.

As for the Lord of Light in the TV show, everything to do with that died with Mel.

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13 minutes ago, CreptorStatus said:

Not to be rude, but Bran being solely responsible and manipulating everything and everyone throughout the show/books would be the dumbest thing ever. I can't really think of anything more disappointing and unsatisfactory then "nothing really mattered because Bran was doing it all" It might of well been all a dream in the end. Considering GRRM's comments on the botched ending of Lost, i highly doubt it will go down this route.

But either way, in no universe are D&D capable of even attempting to explain all that in the show so its null. I'd be surprised if there is any more time travel stuff in the show at all.

As for the Lord of Light in the TV show, everything to do with that died with Mel.

Oh I agree lol, I was just posting that for someone else who had a theory. It was something I had read. It’s definitely not my theory on the direction of the bug ending:)

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3 hours ago, CreptorStatus said:

It's just a guess and a prediction. I don't have any scientific evidence which leads to this conclusion lol but like i said, I think they've set up Dany being quite fond of burning people alive

This is a bit like calling Jon being fond of slicing up people with Longclaw. 
Not counting casualties of war, Daenerys has a pretty low kill-count when it comes to burning people.

My main issue with the idea of Daenerys "going mad" or just dying in general (especially if Jon kills her) now without a major payoff in regards to her romance with Jon, regardless if it results in a child, a marriage or something similar, is that it would reduce her entire storyarc to someone who simply's there to flesh out the numbers for the side of the living at the Battle for Winterfell, and then promptly can be thrown at the side. 

What was the point in Jon and Daenerys having a romance in the first place? Was it just to make her come north with her armies?
What was the point of her surviving the battle if she's just gonna get (back)stabbed in the next battle? Drama? Her dying to protect WF would've been a better death (but still lame) than being backstabbed by the people she just saved.

 

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2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

This is a bit like calling Jon being fond of slicing up people with Longclaw. 
Not counting casualties of war, Daenerys has a pretty low kill-count when it comes to burning people.

My main issue with the idea of Daenerys "going mad" or just dying in general (especially if Jon kills her) now without a major payoff in regards to her romance with Jon, regardless if it results in a child, a marriage or something similar, is that it would reduce her entire storyarc to someone who simply's there to flesh out the numbers for the side of the living at the Battle for Winterfell, and then promptly can be thrown at the side. 

What was the point in Jon and Daenerys having a romance in the first place? Was it just to make her come north with her armies?
What was the point of her surviving the battle if she's just gonna get (back)stabbed in the next battle? Drama? Her dying to protect WF would've been a better death (but still lame) than being backstabbed by the people she just saved.

 

Makes no narrative sense

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4 hours ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Oh I agree lol, I was just posting that for someone else who had a theory. It was something I had read. It’s definitely not my theory on the direction of the bug ending:)

Well I for one find it one of the most plausible theories. Given what we see in next episode's preview, how about this?

Quote

If the NK can manifest snow and ice at will. Then his opposite should be able to manifest fire at will. And maybe...communicate with others through it.

Does Bran discover he has this power by accidentally burning Winterfell?

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2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Well I for one find it one of the most plausible theories. Given what we see in next episode's preview, how about this?

Does Bran discover he has this power by accidentally burning Winterfell?

This is why I love this forum. So many possibilities and perspectives!! 

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I don't know why I just have a feeling Varys has something to do with it.  I watched the first season of the show before I read the books and have always felt like he is holding back some huge game changing secret.

My random thought crackpot ideas:

A. Missandei attacks Sansa for talking smack about Dany in the crypts because she thinks that Sansa and Jon are trying to take her dragon queens throne. If Sansa is hurt or dies then Arya flips and tries to kill Missandei. Jon has to protect his sisters and Dany has to protect her bestie.

B. Missandei attempts to attack Sansa who defends herself with the dagger Arya gave her and in doing so reveals that Missandei is a Faceless man. Dany flips because she just lost Jorah and realizes she can't trust anyone else because her most loyal subject and friend had been lying to her this whole time. Jon tries to calm her down but she flies off and tries to take out Cersei on her own.   I know neither is likely but it would be a WTF moment either way. :)

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Posted (edited)
On 5/3/2019 at 7:55 AM, MinscS2 said:

Given how many times Daenerys has saved Jon's life (3?), and given that Jon has yet to actually save Daenerys life, I'm very curious how the show will go down that path in a way that doesn't seem laughably forced - even if we don't take their prior "history" into consideration.

Seriously, episode 4 can't get here soon enough...

Edit: Another WTF-moment would be that Varys has been Cerseis spy the whole time. 
I'm still very interested in how Cersei knew that Jamie and Tyrion met in secret last season. 

I've rewatched S7E05. 

They agree about Tyrion meeting Jaime with couple of people in the room: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Jorah and Davos.

It's not Jorah. Davos is eager to go, he needs to get Gendry.

Varys and Tyrion talk before the meeting. They talk after Dany burned Tarlies alive. Varys says he found the traitors, but never burned them alive, he was only beware of information. Whatever bad happened: "I'm not the one doing it."

Bronn is the one to arrange Tyrion and Jaime together. I think Cersei knows at this point already, so it's not Bronn telling her.

How did Bronn get the word then? I can only think of Varys. And Varys being Cersei's spy would explain his role.

BTW - in the beginning of that episode Bronn has just rescued Jamie from the dragon attack.

He lectures Jaime when Jaime wants to tell Cersei that she can't beat the Dragon Queen. Bronn says:

"A dragon doesn't get to kill you. You don't get to kill you. Only I get to kill you."

Dragons is where their partnership ends, he says.

WTF-moment will be that all the talks about Lena Headye and Jeremy Flynn rumors where meant to distract people from thinking that there ever can be a connection with Cersei and Bronn in the show. Cersei has played everyone all along, Bronn is with her. Even the baby is his.

And Bronn kills Jaime.
 

Edited by Deminelle

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55 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

I've rewatched S7E05. 

They agree about Tyrion meeting Jaime with couple of people in the room: Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Jorah and Davos.

It's not Jorah. Davos is eager to go, he needs to get Gendry.

Varys and Tyrion talk before the meeting. They talk after Dany burned Tarlies alive. Varys says he found the traitors, but never burned them alive, he was only beware of information. Whatever bad happened: "I'm not the one doing it."

Bronn is the one to arrange Tyrion and Jaime together. I think Cersei knows at this point already, so it's not Bronn telling her.

How did Bronn get the word then? I can only think of Varys. And Varys being Cersei's spy would explain his role.

BTW - in the beginning of that episode Bronn has just rescued Jamie from the dragon attack.

He lectures Jaime when Jaime wants to tell Cersei that she can't beat the Dragon Queen. Bronn says:

"A dragon doesn't get to kill you. You don't get to kill you. Only I get to kill you."

Dragons is where their partnership ends, he says.

WTF-moment will be that all the talks about Lena Headye and Jeremy Flynn rumors where meant to distract people from thinking that there ever can be a connection with Cersei and Bronn in the show. Cersei has played everyone all along, Bronn is with her. Even the baby is his.

And Bronn kills Jaime.
 

This makes way to much sense! I wondered why the fact that they couldn't be in the same room kept being brought up over and over before the season started!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

*text*
 

Yikes, that would've been WTF.
Varys is still high on my traitor-list though, swapping allegiances is what he does.

Jerome Flynn did however say something along the lines of "I hope people still like my character when it's all over", so maybe he does something he knows that the audience will hate, i.e. killing either of the Lannister-brothers. 

58 minutes ago, For Highgarden said:

This makes way to much sense! I wondered why the fact that they couldn't be in the same room kept being brought up over and over before the season started!

Allegedly they can't stand each other IRL due to a bad breakup, so they have it in their contract (I think it is Lena that has it, but I could be wrong) that they never have to share a scene. The one scene they have togheter is in S2 and the breakup happened after that. 

TBH it's pretty unprofessional if it's true. 

Edited by MinscS2

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Gendry will never get the IT, get that out of your mind people.

 

My bet is Jon getting the IT at the end, a broken man because of Daenerys' death.

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- Euron will play into the final battle in a major way, and not as the horny frat-boy pirate that he is now. Something will happen to turn him into a monster--something like Qyburn figuring out how to turn him into a new Other.

- Jon will kill Daenerys, but it will not be because she turned into a Mad Queen or anything. It will be the final fulfillment of TPTWP prophecy and Dany will accept her fate.

- In the very end, Jon will choose to go off with Tormund and the wildlings rather than stay and rule as a Targ. Sansa will be Queen, just as she dreamed when she was a silly little girl. If he makes it to the end, Tyrion will be her consort.

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11 minutes ago, weirwoodface said:

- Jon will kill Daenerys, but it will not be because she turned into a Mad Queen or anything. It will be the final fulfillment of TPTWP prophecy and Dany will accept her fate.

These are not mutually exclusive - Jon needs a motive a bit more convincing than "I love you and our unborn child darling, but due to some dumb millennia-old prophecy that nobody understands I'm just gonna drive this sword through your heart, you okay with that?"

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Yikes, that would've been WTF.
Varys is still high on my traitor-list though, swapping allegiances is what he does.

Jerome Flynn did however say something along the lines of "I hope people still like my character when it's all over", so maybe he does something he knows that the audience will hate, i.e. killing either of the Lannister-brothers. 

Allegedly they can't stand each other IRL due to a bad breakup, so they have it in their contract (I think it is Lena that has it, but I could be wrong) that they never have to share a scene. The one scene they have togheter is in S2 and the breakup happened after that. 

TBH it's pretty unprofessional if it's true. 

Putting this in spoiler because it's based on ep 4 preview:

 

In a short clip Varys and Missandei stand close to Dany. Also photos from next episode show that Varys has some important information. So, at least he's not discovered yet.

Edited by Deminelle

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Posted (edited)

Technically, the "bittersweet ending LotR-style" that GRRM was aiming for has already been fulfilled.

Several beloved characters have died and most of the remaining ones are so scarred or changed by what's happened to them the last couple of seasons that there's never any going back to the life they used to live, not ever. 
This was even hammered in my Jamie and Tyrion in S7E2, where Jamie concluded that "his golden lion-days are over" and Tyrion concluded that "his whoremongering-days are over, but life would be much easier if they weren't".

The pinnacle of this however is Bran, who essentially makes Frodo's sacrifices and change in personality seems laughably small in comparison. 

People expect several major deaths before all this is over, because frankly that's what GoT did in the early days, but most of the "bittersweet theories" I read about here aren't what I'd call "bittersweet", they're outright tragic. 

Unless of course, you consider Romeo and Juliet to be a comedy, at which point I have to ask: what's wrong with you?

Edited by MinscS2

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5 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Unless of course, you consider Romeo and Juliet to be a comedy

What, that story about two families with a long murderous feud who learn to bury their enmity and get along in the end?  :fencing:

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

These are not mutually exclusive - Jon needs a motive a bit more convincing than "I love you and our unborn child darling, but due to some dumb millennia-old prophecy that nobody understands I'm just gonna drive this sword through your heart, you okay with that?"

Obviously, there will be a lot more story involved here and it won't happen as you describe. I'm not even going to guess what that might be. I mean, I could take a stab at it (har har har), but I think my guesses at specifics beyond Euron having something to do with the final cataclysm would be clumsy and silly at best.

Edited by weirwoodface

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I think we can throw the whole "Daenerys is nissa-nissa and will be killed by Jon so he can forge lightbringer"-debate in the garbage bin after the latest episode. (Unless tPwwP is their yet unborn child and Daenerys dies in childbirth, technically because Jon 'stabbed her'.)

Actually, throw every prophecy-related debate in the bin...

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