Death scene: Melisandre

[White26]

1 minute ago, MinscS2 said:

By both literally and metaphorically re-igniting the flame within Arya, allowing her to continue on and ultimately kill the NK.

Before their shared scene, Arya was scared, hurt and mentally broken. 
 

If it is as you say, then for me showrunners failed to picture it in clear and strong way.

[Ser Gareth]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, without the show us ever telling who Melisandre was or what her motivation was there is simply no point in anything she did. She was just an actress in a red dress doing what the script and the directors told her to. There is no character there, no story, no motivation, no anything.

We know what her motivation was.  To stop the Night King.  That was all that mattered to her.

[hallam]

Mel and Cersei are both similar and opposite. They are both utterly ruthless and do despicable acts but Cersei only ever acts for herself and Mel only ever acts for the common good.

They both make catastrophic mistakes. The murder of Shireen costs Stannis his wife, his army and his life. Cersei's torching the great sept costs her her own last living child. They are both driven by prophecy (more so in the books).

But ultimately, Cersei is only for herself while Mel has a task to do and is nothing without it. I don't think that Mel committed suicide, rather it was the case that as with Berric, she only continued to live because the LoL needed her for a purpose and her purpose was served.

[hallam]

3 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, the same for me. 

Anyway, the suicide felt weird, but maybe it makes sense after all.

Mel had been sentenced to death if she returned. She told Davos that there would be no need to execute her, she would be dead before dawn. That promise was arguably essential to stop Davos striking her down then. Mel is driven by prophecy and must fulfill prophecy.

[TheQueenofTheFlowers]

Maybe only death can pay for life and she owed her life for bringing back Jon Snow? She knew that once The NK was dead she must give her own life in return.

[Zumbs]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There isn't really a prophecy of the prince that was promised in the show, is there? Yes, I know, Mel referenced it but she was the only one, wasn't she, so this doesn't tell us anything.

Didn't Tyrion see a red priest sermon right around when he was captured by Jorah? Or am I mixing up the book and show?

3 hours ago, Greenmonsterff said:

I never thought that Melisandre was evil. She was just bad at interpreting what she sees in the fire. Everything she did was well intentioned. She wanted to save the world and get the rightful person on the throne.

I suspect that the future she sees is a possible future, maybe the most likely future. She knows this (or maybe it wasn't until Stannis proved to not be the chosen one), but acts as if it is the actual future if she and those around her follows her instructions. Stannis as an example could have been the one, exemplified by his will to send his army North rather than to Kings Landing.

Bran seems to be indicating the same, but unlike her, he does not tell what his end goal is. He nudges, but he does not tell why, which could be why he succeeds where Melisandre often fails.

[Kajjo]

2 hours ago, White26 said:

If it is as you say, then for me showrunners failed to picture it in clear and strong way.

It was very clear to me, though. Melisandre re-encouraged Arya a greta deal. 

Both with the question "What do we say to death?" reminding her on her adored teacher Syrio Forel, then with reminding her on the prophecy she would kill blue eyes.

Mel did her job fine and the directors as well.

1 hour ago, Ser Gareth said:

We know what her motivation was.  To stop the Night King.  That was all that mattered to her.

Right. And that is enough.

1 hour ago, hallam said:

They both make catastrophic mistakes. The murder of Shireen costs Stannis his wife, his army and his life. Cersei's torching the great sept costs her her own last living child. They are both driven by prophecy (more so in the books).

Nice analysis.

[Nerevanin]

I did not get this at all. So Mel sails away a season ago for reasons or something only to come back empty-handed. She was basically useless in the battle. No big fire magic. No ugly blood magic. Just two tricks that had zero impact on the outcome. And then she goes and kills herself because reasons once again. Don't tell me that her whole purpose was to say to Arya some mysterious "What do we say to the death?" nonsense hoping that somehow Arya would interpret it as pulling a Yoda in a garden.

[briantw]

8 hours ago, the red god said:

i didn't really get it either. it's been beaten over our heads both in the show and the books that she is inherently evil. i get the need to add complexity to a character, but her sudden change of conscience was just too drastic. plus if she's suddenly a "good" person, what was to stop her from bringing beric dondarrion back to life? i don't buy the idea that his purpose in the story arc is complete. there is plenty more he could have done in the future timeline in the upcoming war with cersei.

I don't think she's inherently evil in the books or show.  She's just devoted to her god and willing to do whatever it takes to help humanity through the coming darkness, and is occasionally misguided by interpreting visions incorrectly.  She does evil things, but in her POV chapter (is there more than one?), we see that she's not an evil person.  She believes that what she is doing is right, and that drives her to do some horrible things, but she's also pretty obviously trying to help.

Like most of the characters outside of, say, Joffrey and Ramsay, she's a character who is neither good nor evil, and fully capable of both.  

[Orphalesion]

She should have gone full on Dark Phoenix and gone out in a giant fiery explosion, cleaning the courtyard of Wights in the process, or else imbuing Arya's weapon with fire magic to give that boolpoop at least some sort of gravitas/explanation. 

Instead she just cast an useless fire wall and then pointlessly barricaded herself somewhere safe so that she can commit suicide in the morning....yay...

[briantw]

1 minute ago, Orphalesion said:

She should have gone full on Dark Phoenix and gone out in a giant fiery explosion, cleaning the courtyard of Wights in the process, or else imbuing Arya's weapon with fire magic to give that boolpoop at least some sort of gravitas/explanation. 

Instead she just cast an useless fire wall and then pointlessly barricaded herself somewhere safe so that she can commit suicide in the morning....yay...

Hey, she also gave Arya moral support at a time when she really needed it!

[Orphalesion]

Just now, briantw said:

Hey, she also gave Arya moral support at a time when she really needed it!

Literally every other person could have given her a pep talk, there was nothing that needed Mellisandre.

[briantw]

1 minute ago, Orphalesion said:

Literally every other person could have given her a pep talk, there was nothing that needed Mellisandre.

It was a joke. 

[Orphalesion]

1 minute ago, briantw said:

It was a joke. 

No worries, it's not always easy to tell when it's just text without inflection and all.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

9 hours ago, Kajjo said:

CIRCUMSTANCES: Melisandre drops her magical necklace, the burning stone stops glowing, she transforms step by step into an older self, crumbling away. She commits suicide, probably knowing she fulfilled her destiny. Whatever it was, maybe "protecting the living" or "pushing Arya to do her deed". A little bit unclear, how Melisandre knew all this and what her history was.

RECEPTION: I didn't like to suicide o much, but the scene itself was well done, emotional, a clear end. But just committing suicide? Why? She could have gone on. There is some explanation missing here, I feel. It makes no sense just to die after surviving such a battle. And she is so cool about it.

What do you think?

I don't think she committed suicide. I think the magic that kept her alive left her when her purpose was fulfilled. The stone went out because of this. What I wonder is how is her gods power tied to the night kings? Is it the same power as his and it died? Or is is a power that exists in direct opposition to his power that strengthens when his strengthened and vice versa? Or is it simply her purpose was fulfilled and so it left her. I wonder too why she went outside in the snow, away from both living and dead to die? Why must she die alone? Was it for all the mistakes she made?

[Orphalesion]

10 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I don't think she committed suicide. I think the magic that kept her alive left her when her purpose was fulfilled. The stone went out because of this. What I wonder is how is her gods power tied to the night kings? Is it the same power as his and it died? Or is is a power that exists in direct opposition to his power that strengthens when his strengthened and vice versa? Or is it simply her purpose was fulfilled and so it left her. I wonder too why she went outside in the snow, away from both living and dead to die? Why must she die alone? Was it for all the mistakes she made?

To me it very much looked like a decision she took. She might have felt that she had to take that decision or that it was her duty or that she had been ordered to take that decision, but it was still her who unclasped her collar and discarded it. Though I think from her perspective it might have been some sort of liberation, she seems to have lived a long time and we saw that she was tired. Now that burden was off her shoulders, the collar off her neck.

And I don't think she saw her end as being cast out, being a lone or a punishment.
She walked naked and alone.......into the rising sun, so from her perspective she might have walked towards her god, in hopes of being received by him in some way. 

[north of the wall]

Too many pages already for me to read them all atm, but my take on Mel's role for the long night is this

 

She knew she was needed. Not necessarily how or why but that she had to be there. She sees her own death, but not how or why and promises Davos she will die before dawn. When she sees arya on the walls she sees her being the one to finish the NK, or at least that she plays a big role. Mel hangs around until she needed, waiting to be needed. Once it's all said and done and she is not dead she decides to do it herself rather than allow Davos too. Her role is done, she has lived too long already, whatever her reasoning she knows she isn't needed anymore and leaves the world of the living happily.

 

I'm much more ok with Mel's death than some of the characters who didn't die. Hahaha. 

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

16 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

To me it very much looked like a decision she took. She might have felt that she had to take that decision or that it was her duty or that she had been ordered to take that decision, but it was still her who unclasped her collar and discarded it. Though I think from her perspective it might have been some sort of liberation, she seems to have lived a long time and we saw that she was tired. Now that burden was off her shoulders, the collar off her neck.

And I don't think she saw her end as being cast out, being a lone or a punishment.
She walked naked and alone.......into the rising sun, so from her perspective she might have walked towards her god, in hopes of being received by him in some way. 

I thought that too and then considered the possibility that it wasn't her choice. Magic is something difficult to define in this show. I noticed Melisandre had difficulty starting the fire. In the past she never had such trouble. This time she had to beg for the power to light the trench, although the NK power was clearly strong. Her power was very weak, perhaps by the NK. Her power is what kept her alive. She didn't have enough by the end of the fight to keep herself alive.

[Orphalesion]

Just now, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

I thought that too and then considered the possibility that it wasn't her choice. Magic is something difficult to define in this show. I noticed Melisandre had difficulty starting the fire. In the past she never had such trouble. This time she had to beg for the power to light the trench, although the NK power was clearly strong.

I kinda thought that her difficulty of starting the fire ring had more to do with her self doubts she has had since Stannis.

I really wish they would have focused on that and given Mellisandre a little arc last season. Maybe giving her a crisis of fate after Jon telling her that "there's nooooooooooooooothiiiiiiiiiing".
They could have sent her to a temple in Essos in hopes of finding answers and confirmation of R'hllor's reality, only to find nothing but empty ritual there. After some soul searching she could have realized that until now all her actions were never in the Lord of Light's service or that of others, but only for herself, in hopes of earning a reward from her god.
She then would have had to decide whether fighting for the Dawn is still worth it, even without the security of an afterlife in R'hllor's glory and once she decides that yes, it is worth it....suddenly her powers start growing and she leaves for Winterfell.

Idk I think it would have been interesting.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

3 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

I kinda thought that her difficulty of starting the fire ring had more to do with her self doubts she has had since Stannis.

I really wish they would have focused on that and given Mellisandre a little arc last season. Maybe giving her a crisis of fate after Jon telling her that "there's nooooooooooooooothiiiiiiiiiing".
They could have sent her to a temple in Essos in hopes of finding answers and confirmation of R'hllor's reality, only to find nothing but empty ritual there. After some soul searching she could have realized that until now all her actions were never in the Lord of Light's service or that of others, but only for herself, in hopes of earning a reward from her god.
She then would have had to decide whether fighting for the Dawn is still worth it, even without the security of an afterlife in R'hllor's glory and once she decides that yes, it is worth it....suddenly her powers start growing and she leaves for Winterfell.

Idk I think it would have been interesting.

I can't speak to all that since my memory of it all has faded. But I was constantly annoyed by how her ego drove so much of her action until she failed Stannis so miserably. She became uncertain and fearful after that. Then she was aware of her limitations her only great accomplishment was bring back Jon. I am curious about the clues to these gods and the children and all this magical stuff.