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Potential relationship Sansa/Tyrion ?

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On 4/29/2019 at 10:04 PM, Red Dragon10 said:

Bahahaha..what?!  Children are being ripped apart by the undead, people screaming....lets kiss?! 

I thought they thought they were going to die. 

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Perhaps Sansa is playing the Game of Thrones with Tyrion. If that’s the case I hope he is not so fool or desperate to swallow the bait (again)!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Hound's She-wolf said:

 The only flaw in your statement (which I agree with 100%) is that D&D do not now and have never understood or been able to write Sansa's character well. They will retcon the hell out of anything to get Tyrion a suitable trophy wife if they can, and right now she is one of the few highborn ladies that we see left in Westeros.

It's not a flaw in my statement. I've said it several times (just not in this thread). I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of the fact that D&D don't care for nor understand Sansa. Hence the mess of a character we get on the show.

And I'm in total agreement with you on the latter part. If Tyrion and Sansa end up together on this show, it's simply because to them (meaning Benioff), Tyrion deserves everything, including the trophy wife. Because he's just so awesometastic.

Edited by Mystical

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, greensleeves said:

Let's not pretend that there isn't a sexist double standard at play here.

To correct you: Sansa has always been polite to everyone (even ugly people). However she dreamt of being married to a handsome man when she was a child (and there's nothing wrong with that).

As far as I know, not only has Tyrion never been in a sexual/romantic relationship with anyone who wasn't conventionally attractive, but in the books, he actively treats conventionally unattractive women poorly.

By this point in the books, Sansa can see beyond skin-deep ugliness in men (even if she doesn't want to be in a relationship with them). Tyrion cannot see beyond skin-deep ugliness in women. So who really needs to be taught the lesson? 

Sansa was ahead of Tyrion on this issue even as a child.

Sansa's been polite to everyone? Really? She scorned Jon because he was a bastard and went out of her way to point out that he was only a HALF brother. She looked down on Theon because he was just a hostage. She told Ayra she hated her. She was rotten to Septa Mordane. She cringed at the thought of marrying Willas Tyrell because of his crippled leg. She was revolted by Tyrion and the Hound. She denigrated Jeyne Poole for having crush on Beric because she was only a steward's daughter.

What women has Tyrion treated badly because of her looks? Penny? To say it was because of her looks is a real stretch. So back that up, please. 

You say there's nothing wrong with Sansa wanting a handsome man for a husband. But there's something wrong with Tyrion for wanting attractive women? Seriously? You're the one promoting the double standard here.

People, men and women both, like attractive members of whichever sex they're attracted to. It's been a fact of life since we climbed down from the trees and it's never going to change. It took Sansa a while to realize that all that glitters is not gold. It's part of growing up.

So let's leave the MeToo movement out of this. It has no place in this discussion.

Edited by Ice Queen

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1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

 

Perhaps Sansa is playing the Game of Thrones with Tyrion. If that’s the case I hope he is not so fool or desperate to swallow the bait (again)!

I would love that actually. And it would put Sansa's words in 8x02 into perspective.

'Men do stupid things for women. They are easily manipulated.'

Heck, if she were buttering him up in this episode with 'you were the best of them', instead of it being yet another 'Tyrion is so awesome' moment, that would certainly make things interesting. Problem is that D&D aren't that clever or good, and the constant Tyrion love is a thing every episode because said love is a complete meta statement. No matter what he says or does (aka no matter what nonsense D&D write), people (meta for audience/critics) will sing his praises and say he's so great.

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On 4/29/2019 at 10:48 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Hmmm I dont know. If Tyrion married Sansa, Dany would be able to claim the North through Tyrion and ensure their loyalty to her queenship. Its basically what Tywin tried to do. 

 

I don't think so.  When Tyrion married Sansa at the peak of Lannister power in King's Landing; Tywin's plan was for Tyrion to father a Lannister child on the Stark heiress and then take them North and, taking them North, become Lord of Winterfell as Sansa's husband and (for Northern support) the father of Ned Stark's grandson.  If Sansa died, the Lordship of Winterfell could pass to Tyrion and (in Tywin's view) into the control of House Lannister; since they believed that Arya, Bran and Rickon were dead and Tywin knew that Robb was not going to be in the picture for much longer.  

But if Tyrion remarried Sansa (or whatever), while Tyrion could claim the North, as her husband, Daenerys would not.  Daenerys could only claim the North by family bonds or forfeit-by-treason or total conquest.  And the North may or may not give complete allegiance to Daenerys; that really depends on how long Jon is Warden of the North/how long he lives.  Dany cannot claim the North through Tyrion.  She can claim it, as she does now, by right of Targaryen rule and the fealty, freely given, of Jon Snow, the second King Who Knelt.  If Dany were to marry Jon, and deliver a couple of children, she could designate one of them to be the heir to the North and claim a regency over the North until that child comes of age.  

In any case, I don't see the Northern lords ever accepting Tyrion Lannister's rule, even if he were married to Sansa.  Only if Sansa were the ruling Lady of Winterfell and Tyrion were her non-ruling husband would that regime be accepted in the North, and it might still be problematic.  Sansa seems to be entrenching her position as the Lady of Winterfell by embracing her Northern roots rather than her Southern first husband.  She might want to keep it that way.

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7 hours ago, Mystical said:

Arya gets it all because she is the only character in the show (except for the Tyrell women) for whom the patriarchy doesn't apply. She was never so much as threatened with rape, she was free to pursue her own path, she was free to chose when to have sex and even drove the bus on that one despite no experience whatsoever.er.

While a minor point, this isn't entirely true.

Polliver and his men clearly had the intention of raping Arya in S4 (without knowing that she was Arya Stark, but still) if the Hound had traded her for some chickens (and a way to leave the Inn without violence.) 
You can even see Arya momentarily being afraid that he might just do that.

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On 4/29/2019 at 10:48 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Hmmm I dont know. If Tyrion married Sansa, Dany would be able to claim the North through Tyrion and ensure their loyalty to her queenship. Its basically what Tywin tried to do. 

No.  Dany would not get a claim to the North thru Tyrion.  She may get friendly influence from such a marriage.  But not an outright claim. 

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4 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I don't think so.  When Tyrion married Sansa at the peak of Lannister power in King's Landing; Tywin's plan was for Tyrion to father a Lannister child on the Stark heiress and then take them North and, taking them North, become Lord of Winterfell as Sansa's husband and (for Northern support) the father of Ned Stark's grandson.  If Sansa died, the Lordship of Winterfell could pass to Tyrion and (in Tywin's view) into the control of House Lannister; since they believed that Arya, Bran and Rickon were dead and Tywin knew that Robb was not going to be in the picture for much longer.  

But if Tyrion remarried Sansa (or whatever), while Tyrion could claim the North, as her husband, Daenerys would not.  Daenerys could only claim the North by family bonds or forfeit-by-treason or total conquest.  And the North may or may not give complete allegiance to Daenerys; that really depends on how long Jon is Warden of the North/how long he lives.  Dany cannot claim the North through Tyrion.  She can claim it, as she does now, by right of Targaryen rule and the fealty, freely given, of Jon Snow, the second King Who Knelt.  If Dany were to marry Jon, and deliver a couple of children, she could designate one of them to be the heir to the North and claim a regency over the North until that child comes of age.  

In any case, I don't see the Northern lords ever accepting Tyrion Lannister's rule, even if he were married to Sansa.  Only if Sansa were the ruling Lady of Winterfell and Tyrion were her non-ruling husband would that regime be accepted in the North, and it might still be problematic.  Sansa seems to be entrenching her position as the Lady of Winterfell by embracing her Northern roots rather than her Southern first husband.  She might want to keep it that way.

:agree:

 

Did the Northern lords ratify Jon's bending of the knee to Danaerys?  Glover did not.  We have not seen Manderly in S8, so far.  I assume that they will do so in episode 4, if they have not done so already.

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5 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

No.  Dany would not get a claim to the North thru Tyrion.  She may get friendly influence from such a marriage.  But not an outright claim. 

What I mean is that it is a process of alliance building which is what Tywin tried to play (as well as Aegon I). He tried to shut out the Tyrells from gaining the upper hand with a key territory. If its Tyrion, Dany blocks a rival from marrying her. A rival is potentially right there if Sansa married Jon as heir. They are one step away from uniting North and South and shutting Dany out. That's why Jon's parentage is dangerous for her and why Sansa's unmarried status could sway this either way. 

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Sansa should marry Podrick. She can be dominant, he's become a competent warrior, he can sing her songs and probably bake her lemon cakes.

We've had two instances of divided loyalties being foreshadowed. Arya and Jon, remember who your family is. Sansa and Tyrion, in this episode

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Just a detail, I know, but was their marriage ever dissolved?  Sansa married Tyrion in the Light of the Seven.  She married Ramsay before the Old Gods.  Technically, in the Light of the Seven, they are still married, no?

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7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

What I mean is that it is a process of alliance building which is what Tywin tried to play (as well as Aegon I). He tried to shut out the Tyrells from gaining the upper hand with a key territory. If its Tyrion, Dany blocks a rival from marrying her. A rival is potentially right there if Sansa married Jon as heir. They are one step away from uniting North and South and shutting Dany out. That's why Jon's parentage is dangerous for her and why Sansa's unmarried status could sway this either way. 

So you still think that Jon and Sansa are going to be a thing? Even though they have gone out of their way to put Sansa and Tyrion together?  I doubt she ends up with Tyrion, but there still isn't anything in the show that in reality supports the Jon/Sansa theory.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Mystical said:

I would love that actually. And it would put Sansa's words in 8x02 into perspective.

'Men do stupid things for women. They are easily manipulated.'

Heck, if she were buttering him up in this episode with 'you were the best of them', instead of it being yet another 'Tyrion is so awesome' moment, that would certainly make things interesting. Problem is that D&D aren't that clever or good, and the constant Tyrion love is a thing every episode because said love is a complete meta statement. No matter what he says or does (aka no matter what nonsense D&D write), people (meta for audience/critics) will sing his praises and say he's so great.

Yes it would be interesting but it would completely ruin her character if the most critical hour she was thinking “ok let’s manipulate a bit Tyrion in case we remain  so he can vote for our independence.”

Even though even suggesting that Dany was the problem with an army of zombies above their heads was rude in the first place. Does she appreciate anything?

Edited by Nightwish

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1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

Yes it would be interesting but it would completely ruin her character if the most critical hour she was thinking “ok let’s manipulate a bit Tyrion in case we remain  so he can vote for our independence.”

Not really. As Sansa seemed to be the only one all Season who thought there would be an after. But their whole conversation made no sense whatsoever because it completely ignores what actually happened in earlier Seasons. So Sansa moving the pieces around for 'after the AotD fight' would at least be interesting. Not that I think that was actually what was happening.

1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

Even though even suggesting that Dany was the problem with an army of zombies above their heads was rude in the first place. Does she appreciate anything?

Again, this part of the conversation also made no sense. Just like the rest of it. If they had Sansa say that a marriage to Tyrion wouldn't have worked because he always has divided loyalties, that's actually continuity and therefor a valid point. But it made no sense to mention Dany because she never would have been a factor in their marriage. Their marriage never would have worked for a hundred reasons, none of which have anything to do with Dany. So this was completely out of context and it completely ignored the history of these 2 characters. What she said simply made no sense and served no other purpose than making Sansa look like a bitch, something D&D specialize in.

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Posted (edited)

Sansa has always been a character that I've felt "meh" about. I've never really disliked her, nor liked her. I've felt bad for her however, and wanted for her to have a happier life than she had during S1-S6.

Starting with S7 however, I noticed a trend that is seemingly being continued now in S8: Sansa is not a nice person.
She only cares about herself (herself also being her family/house) and her interest in the north's independence seems to boil down to her (or her family) having the power over it, and not someone else, be it Daenerys or Cersei. 
The way she willingly sacrificed Rickon without even trying to save him, and almost Jon & Co as well because of her being too proud to go  back to LF and ask for aid further proves his. (She might've had even darker ambitions, i.e. making sure all the male members = potential threats to her being the wardeness/lady of winterfell was wiped out, but I'm not gonna go quite so far.)

Once you start thinking about it, there are many similarities between S7-S8 Sansa and Cersei.
A different poster also pointed out something interesting: When has Sansa done anything of note that can be considered altruism? I.e. something good just for the sake of it, without having any ulterior motives?
Even Daenerys has acted altruistic on at least one occasion when she freed the Yunkai-slaves. She had no need for them, they don't benefit her in any way (quite the opposite), but she fought for and freed them anyway because it was the "right thing" to do.

Lastly, I'm gonna quote myself from a different topic, regarding Sansa being "clever".
 

Quote

Sansa might be "intelligent", but there's absolutely nothing clever about Sansa's actions this season so far in regards to Daenerys. 
Sansa clearly has her own agenda. If she wants to have it fulfilled without violence, she needs to start manipulating people and make them see stuff her way, as "friends", not as enemies. For someone who's learned to play the game from the best players there is, she's doing a really poor job so far.

Daenerys, a person who hasn't played the game at all, see's right trough her fake smiles and instantly notices how she doesn't like her. 
Even when Daenerys approaches with an open mind and tries to make "peace" (of sorts), Sansa manages to screw up by pressing the issue at a bad moment, instead of slowly starting to manipulate her. What's the saying, "it's easier to catch bee's with honey than vinegar"?

Even Jon(!) considered Sansa to be a potential problem, and basically questioned her loyalties ("do you have any faith in me at all?"), something he never should've had to do in the first place after everything they've been trough, if she had played her cards right.
Heck, in the last episode, Missandei (of all people!) essentially tell her to shut up with her talk about divided loyalties. Way to smack-talk a person who is currently fighting tooth and nail to save you and your precious North...

Nah, if the writers want Sansa to come across as smart and clever, they've done a shit job.
If they want to make her come across as petty and jealous however, they've done an excellent job. 

TLDR: Sansa want's northern independence.
If she was clever she'd make sure that she's on good terms with the one person who is (or at least, was) in a position to make this a reality. Instead she's managed to end up on bad terms with Daenerys. Your friend is much more likely to do what you want them to do than your enemy is.

Edited by MinscS2

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8 minutes ago, princess brittany said:

saint dany has done nothing wrong <_<

Oh she certainly has, but that's not the point I/we are trying to make. 

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