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The Great Unwashed

Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS II

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I can already see this being the new "Battle for New York" on AoS this year. I still remember how in nearly every episode of season 1 of that show people would say "remember the Battle for New York" or something similar and I would just role my eyes each time. I can already hear it in my head, how "the Devastation" will be talked about in nearly every episode this year.

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them saying he shouldn't put on the glove. But I think that was more questionable in the connection with his PTSD/drinking than his weight.  

thor's corpulence is tied directly to the trauma disorder and comes across as serious, i thought, rather than comical--though certainly people laughed at it during the screening that i attended, but that laughter is in the localized reception, a defect in the particular audience; inferring a corollary defect in the text itself or, heaven forfend, a step further removed in the author is unwarranted.

there is a bit of instability in the presentation of trauma disorder across the films, such as stark's in iron man 3 and banner's in thor 3 and avengers 3--wherein the disorder just kinda went away? accordingly am not sure why either stark or banner would be reasonable candidates for the magic glove if thor is disqualified on the basis of mental disorder.  so that's demerits.

probably the least realistic thing about these films is the generalized absence of trauma disorder--rogers was in the second world war FFS and was in a plane crash into the ocean. i've represented mariners who were in vessel collisions and stevedores whose cranes collapsed in the river and mercenary drivers in iraq and so on--trauma disorder is not something that requires a purple genocide alien and is not something that just goes away.

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Quite underwhelming, considering the reviews. Sequences when they time travel, and have to evade their alternative selves, especialy felt boring, predictable, and like I've already seen them million times before.

I'm glad Iron Man and Cap are gone. I want to see Avengers lineup without any original members. Captain Marvel is going to be a problem for them, however. They have struggled to fit powerful characters (Thor, Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Vision) into a story and she is not only ultra powerful, but also super fast. How are they going to explain her not beating any enemy on her own, immediately? In Endgame they basically sent her of for almost the entire movie. I know this was a send-off for the OG, but in future movies Marvel won't have that excuse.

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8 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Again, have not yet seen the movie, but my understanding is that Thor’s change is a result of the guilt and depression and sense of personal failure he feels following Infinity War. If that is so, it would perhaps be prudent as audiences to be questioning why Thor’s weiht gain is comical rather than saddening. Showing us an unkempt, overweight Thor isn’t a problem but playing it solely for laughs, well...i’ll reserve full judgment until i’ve seen it. 

For me, I think it's the scene with his mother that makes it all work.

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So, one thing that bugged me is the way that Hawkeye and Widow seemingly nerfed the sacrifice requirement for the soul stone.

In IW it seemed that the one seeking the stone must directly sacrifice that which they love in order to gain possession.  Arguments about the validity of Thanos’ love for Gamora aside, that’s how it played out in IW:  Thanos wanted the stone, Thanos must give Gamora’s life for the stone.  In EG, though, Hawkeye gets the stone through BW’s suicidal gesture, despite his every effort to prevent that act.

Now, I’ve gone back and reviewed the soul stone scene in IW, and EG does follow the explicit wording that Red Skull uses to explain the ritual.  “The Stone demands a sacrifce.  You must lose that which you love”.  And while Hawkeye did suffer the loss of that which he loves, he, personally, made no sacrifice, and even would have prevented it if he could.

And I can’t help but think that finding someone willing to die for you is a much lower bar that having to personally kill someone you love so that you might possess an infinity stone.

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3 hours ago, Gronzag said:

Quite underwhelming, considering the reviews. Sequences when they time travel, and have to evade their alternative selves, especialy felt boring, predictable, and like I've already seen them million times before.

I'm glad Iron Man and Cap are gone. I want to see Avengers lineup without any original members. Captain Marvel is going to be a problem for them, however. They have struggled to fit powerful characters (Thor, Hulk, Scarlet Witch, Vision) into a story and she is not only ultra powerful, but also super fast. How are they going to explain her not beating any enemy on her own, immediately? In Endgame they basically sent her of for almost the entire movie. I know this was a send-off for the OG, but in future movies Marvel won't have that excuse.

I pretty much feel the same way about this film and Captain Marvel as well. I almost feel like the poster to this film is basically one massive lie, consider Carol and Okoye appear in less than 10% of this film; Okoye maybe even less than that.

Making Thanos the GotG Thanos pretty much made the climax a little too convoluted for my taste. Thanos should have always been our Thanos. I mean in the climax of this film we have Wanda getting "revenge" on him, for something he never really even did to her. I mean from his POV Wanda and pretty much all of the Avengers were complete strangers. It completely destroyed any sense of pay back for me, because this isn't the Thanos that killed everyone, he's only the Thanos that wanted to kill everyone..............if that makes sense, lol

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when they prevent 2014 thanos from snapping that shit right fuck off, they have in fact graduated to becoming the 'prevengers' whose absence stark had previously lamented--an important development that they can take to william hurt in order to contradict his video montage of their abject failures hitherto and thus nullify democratic control via the international convention on vigilantes.

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5 hours ago, sifth said:

I can already see this being the new "Battle for New York" on AoS this year. I still remember how in nearly every episode of season 1 of that show people would say "remember the Battle for New York" or something similar and I would just role my eyes each time. I can already hear it in my head, how "the Devastation" will be talked about in nearly every episode this year.

Don't think SHIELD is going to be set in that timeline anymore.

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1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

Don't think SHIELD is going to be set in that timeline anymore.

Why do you say that?

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26 minutes ago, sifth said:

It completely destroyed any sense of pay back for me, because this isn't the Thanos that killed everyone, he's only the Thanos that wanted to kill everyone..............if that makes sense

It does make sense.  You want perfect justice when possible.  They didn't get that because Thanos outmatched them so badly it was impossible to get that.  It became about just barely squeaking by, hardly getting it done at all, taking what they could get.   Not the most satisfying to beat the B Side version of the baddie, but he was hundreds or thousands of years old so the 2014 Thanos was virtually identical, had the same malice toward the universe, was just as important to aprehend.  When villains were neatly tied up at the end of previous movies people thought they needed better villains.  Now they gave us a better villain and we wish he was more neatly tied up.  We want it all i suppose.  

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Based on the trailer released a few days ago.

That trailer reads to me like ‘Coulson died but now there’s a mystery Coulson running around’, not that they’re in an alternate reality. 

In a weird way, if you can accept the fluke that they all survived the snap, the 5 year interval would actually be a really interesting setting for AoS and give them lots to do, all while not rubbing up against the movies set in 2023 onwards. Another thought I had was that, if Coulson was about to die but then was suddenly snapped, he’d still get brought back five years later. Dunno what they could do with that but thought it was weird.

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27 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

That trailer reads to me like ‘Coulson died but now there’s a mystery Coulson running around’, not that they’re in an alternate reality. 

In a weird way, if you can accept the fluke that they all survived the snap, the 5 year interval would actually be a really interesting setting for AoS and give them lots to do, all while not rubbing up against the movies set in 2023 onwards. Another thought I had was that, if Coulson was about to die but then was suddenly snapped, he’d still get brought back five years later. Dunno what they could do with that but thought it was weird.

Um, did we watch the same trailer?

 

Edit: I'm talking about this one.

 

Edited by Darth Richard II

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2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Um, did we watch the same trailer?

 

Edit: I'm talking about this one.

 

The trailer makes it seem like Phil's from another timeline and evil, not that the entire team is suddenly in a new reality. 

Edited by sifth

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It does look like Phil may be from another timeline, and maybe not even a timeline created by the Endgame events. Or it could be Skrulls. ;)

Yes, do I wish for a connection, one way or another. 

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15 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

It does make sense.  You want perfect justice when possible.  They didn't get that because Thanos outmatched them so badly it was impossible to get that.  It became about just barely squeaking by, hardly getting it done at all, taking what they could get.   Not the most satisfying to beat the B Side version of the baddie, but he was hundreds or thousands of years old so the 2014 Thanos was virtually identical, had the same malice toward the universe, was just as important to aprehend.  When villains were neatly tied up at the end of previous movies people thought they needed better villains.  Now they gave us a better villain and we wish he was more neatly tied up.  We want it all i suppose.  

Is it weird, that for the most part, I never viewed Marvel as having a villain problem. In fact I really liked a lot of their villains before Thanos. To be honest I really liked Ego, Killmonger, Volture, Loki and several others. I think Marvel's problem is they usually kill off their villains. They were wise to keep Loki and Volture alive, but for pretty much everyone else they killed him/her in the film they were introduced. For example I think killing Ronan was a huge mistake, because like Loki he's a very layered character in the comics and could be used as more than just a villain in future films, had they kept him alive.

Edited by sifth

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Hey, Ronan could be alive again in the alternate timeline Thanos just left to come die in ours.  (Assuming that Thanos' absence would alter GotG events for that universe.  Not for our characters though.)  

My gripes weren't about the villains either.    Well, Ironman 1&2 were just business rival jerks, but those movies were fun enough to save it.   Ego was fine as a bad guy, my complaint was he did my boy Starlord wrong and now Quill ain't special no more and we lost the planet?   I woulda had them get rid of Kurt Russell but save the planet by having Quill connect to it in Kurt's place and put himself in a cocoon like a new baby god to keep the planet on life support.   (It would then tie in with Adam's cocoon deal, plotwise and jokewise.)   Then, Quill's real body would stay in the planet but he could manifest himself on the Benatar too, and he wouldn't be a full god but he'd at least have something going on as a Celestial Jr.    (Like mid-range mutant powers for emergencies?)   And the surface of Ego would change to reflect Quill's stupidity.  :D

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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7 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

It does make sense.  You want perfect justice when possible.  They didn't get that because Thanos outmatched them so badly it was impossible to get that.  It became about just barely squeaking by, hardly getting it done at all, taking what they could get.   Not the most satisfying to beat the B Side version of the baddie, but he was hundreds or thousands of years old so the 2014 Thanos was virtually identical, had the same malice toward the universe, was just as important to aprehend.  When villains were neatly tied up at the end of previous movies people thought they needed better villains.  Now they gave us a better villain and we wish he was more neatly tied up.  We want it all i suppose.  

I agree with regard to 2014 Thanos and "our" Thanos. Of course we wanted our Thanos to suffer and know that he had, in fact, lost, but I think it's actually a good niggling nuance to think that our Thanos essentially died thinking he had won. Even in the MCU not everything is wrapped up neatly with a little bow and it's kind of a minor shock to think that the big bad still "won".

That being said, I don't think there would have been a huge difference between 2014 Thanos and our one. He's old, and his personality and character were the same. All he was missing were the weeks (?) of Infinity War experience, and even then he would have had reasonable (if incomplete) understanding of what had happened. Presumably he would have reviewed all of Nebula's datalogs, which would have included the pivotal Battle on Titan and the Vormir revelations, which would have brought him closer to our version of Thanos. He would have missed Xandar, the Space Stone from Thor's ship, the Collector, the actual Vormir experience and the final battle with Vision and Thor getting him in the chest but that's about it.

I remember when I was watching Endgame remarking about the parallels of Thanos forcing the axe into Thor's chest (when Thor had done the same to him), and then I realised that wouldn't have been deliberate on Thanos's part as the opposite wouldn't have happened to 2014 Thanos.

 

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8 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Um, did we watch the same trailer?

 

Edit: I'm talking about this one.

 

“We don’t know where he’s from, but we have a new target that looks exactly like Phil Coulson”. Everyone other than Phil seems to act like things are carrying on as normal.

If we weren’t looking for alternate timelines due to Endgame, it’s probably more likely he’s a clone or something.

Edited by DaveSumm

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Occurred to me Nat might actually have been brought back. Didn't Red Skull say it was a soul for a soul? So when Cap returned the soul stone, did he get BW back in return? 

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