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The Great Unwashed

Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS II

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2 hours ago, sologdin said:

Carol's introduction was basically something we're suppose to assume happened off camera

do we need that moment on camera? film is all about drawing inferences of this sort. 

otherwise, perhaps interpersonal invective is unwarranted?

Yeah...I didn't watch the post credit scene of IW, and I never watched Captain Marvel at all. When I watched End Game, I was like, "oh, that's probably Captain Marvel. She wasn't in the last Avengers. I guess she must have met up with the Avengers in her movie...or in a post credits scene." And I never thought about it again.

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3 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Does it?

  Reveal hidden contents

What we had in AoS was a time-loop. I think time-loops could still be a thing, even if the main rule of time travel is that you can't change the past. Also, the news about Thanos attacking Earth comes after they went back in time, thus it would still be the IW/Endgame timeline.

 

I’ve been trying to work this through in my head; it’s a bit ugly but it kinda works. If we assume Endgame rules and that travelling in time opens a new reality, that keeps existing while you’re still in it. Let’s say that’s still true for future time travel, and that the ‘earth is doomed’ future is actually E-200000, so at the beginning of last season, the Agents travelled from 199999 to 200000. Fitz took the long way round and ended up floating in space. Then they travelled back using the same rules; now they’re on E-200001, where Thanos attacks but Thor goes for the head first time, and where Graviton doesn’t win and the Earth doesn’t crumble. Hooray. This next season will be about trying to find 200001 Fitz, not their Fitz.

Here’s where it doesn’t work though: Endgame doesn’t seem to imply that there’s an infinite number of realities that all daisy chain together, so when Cap goes to E-199998 (for example), there’s not a corresponding Cap who shows up in our reality to marry our Peggy. In fact, that wouldn’t make sense as that could change the past which apparently isn’t possible. Which begs the question; why is there a corresponding Fitz to rescue them in the future?

So let’s say, future time travel works differently ... things do daisy chain together if you go forward, but not back. That makes sense of what we’ve seen, but it leaves the slightly depressing fact that Fitz 199999, our Fitz, froze himself to rescue the Agents in a reality where they didn’t need any help and now has to rely on Agents who have a) no knowledge from the future to know where Fitz is and b) been half snapped. Doesn’t look good for him. Let’s hope the bald guy didn’t get snapped.

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On 5/4/2019 at 9:24 PM, sifth said:

That or I don’t have blind love for the MCU like many here seem to have. Carol basically was given the Wonder Woman treatment from BvS, but I seem to be the only one who noticed it. So to each their own. 

Talk about assumptions on my position, but yeah Captain Marvel's "problem" in Thor is her introduction happens over a span three movies, got it.

Edited by Guy Kilmore

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11 hours ago, sologdin said:

Carol's introduction was basically something we're suppose to assume happened off camera

do we need that moment on camera? film is all about drawing inferences of this sort. 

Some people tend to prefer to have the dots connected for them in bright red lines. Really i don’t think the movie needed to show us anything more, it was pretty simple to guess what happened off camera. If most people seemingly seem fine with it then I’d say there isn’t a problem

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16 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

You keep referring to this reboot/restart, but I don’t think any such thing is in the plans or even being considered.

Oh.... yes... of course you're right.... the reboot/restart I'm referring to is the inevitable cycle of main characters having gotten too old to play their parts... after phase 4, which I'm picturing more cosmic with GotG, the Eternals, Nova, Capt Marvel, etc..... along with Black Panther, Spiderman, the new Capt America, etc... even if these brands last 10 years, eventually they'll have to start again.... I didn;t mean to imply that it was already planned, or that they'd begun the process

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On 5/5/2019 at 2:03 AM, DaveSumm said:

I’ve been trying to work this through in my head; it’s a bit ugly but it kinda works. If we assume Endgame rules and that travelling in time opens a new reality, that keeps existing while you’re still in it. Let’s say that’s still true for future time travel, and that the ‘earth is doomed’ future is actually E-200000, so at the beginning of last season, the Agents travelled from 199999 to 200000. Fitz took the long way round and ended up floating in space. Then they travelled back using the same rules; now they’re on E-200001, where Thanos attacks but Thor goes for the head first time, and where Graviton doesn’t win and the Earth doesn’t crumble. Hooray. This next season will be about trying to find 200001 Fitz, not their Fitz.

Here’s where it doesn’t work though: Endgame doesn’t seem to imply that there’s an infinite number of realities that all daisy chain together, so when Cap goes to E-199998 (for example), there’s not a corresponding Cap who shows up in our reality to marry our Peggy. In fact, that wouldn’t make sense as that could change the past which apparently isn’t possible. Which begs the question; why is there a corresponding Fitz to rescue them in the future?

So let’s say, future time travel works differently ... things do daisy chain together if you go forward, but not back. That makes sense of what we’ve seen, but it leaves the slightly depressing fact that Fitz 199999, our Fitz, froze himself to rescue the Agents in a reality where they didn’t need any help and now has to rely on Agents who have a) no knowledge from the future to know where Fitz is and b) been half snapped. Doesn’t look good for him. Let’s hope the bald guy didn’t get snapped.

I got a headache trying to figure our your take, and then another headache trying to wrap this around my head, and come up with something. :P

 

Banner’s words: The point to where you travel becomes your future. Where you’ve been becomes the past. As stated, and we all agree, I think, you can’t change your past. This also means you can’t change the departure point.

Banner’s other words: Returning the infinity stones to the moment they were taken would correct the timeline from which they were taken. The infinity stones are major, of course, but other events could also create new timelines. But the point is, the act of time traveling itself is not enough to create a new timeline. So long as you’ve created a bridge between your departure point and destination, and you only go and come back without doing anything else, being seen etc. no alternate timeline is created.

Based on these statements, you time travel in the past, do some stuff, but you cannot expect your departure point to be different, because it simply cannot be changed.

But what if, instead of the past, you travel into the future. Your arrival point will be your new future, and your departure is your past, which technically would have been anyway, with the main difference being you’ve skipped over a bunch of events.

Dr. Strange, sort of, traveled to 14+ million futures. He merely looked, and saw the sequence of events for each one, between point A, where he was on Titan, and point B, the ultimate defeat of Thanos.

AoS characters were taken to the future via the monolith. In the future where they travel, besides the Earth’s situation, there’s Deke, the grandson of Fitz-Simmons. What does this mean? If certain people were taken out of a timeline, how could they have influenced events that followed post their departure point? The past is fixed, meaning every event that led to that future is fixed. But while the past is fixed, the future is fluid. To what future did they travel? I argue that the monolith, like Tony’s time machine, acts as an anchor. They left a reality that was heading towards Earth’s devastation, and arrived within the same reality, forwards in time. Then they used the monolith to travel back, except this time they were armed with the knowledge of one possible future. They defeat Graviton, and the Earth is not cracked. That possible future is removed from their timeline. But that doesn’t mean other events would not occur within their timeline – Thanos’s attack, the snap, the 5 years of suffering, the new snap, and so on. Because when they travel back, that then became their new future, with all its branching possibilities.

What does this mean for Fitz? I’ve started a quick re-watch of the last part of the show. AoS doesn’t tell us exactly when the team got back, other than some time did pass between the point when they were taken, and when they returned. The timeline continued without them and have Fitz cryo-freeze himself and go up in space. The show deliberately kept this vague, to have the dramatic moment in the finale. So, the Fitz they meet in the future is the same one, because they’re still in the same timeline. And when they travel back with Fitz, now there are two of them in the timeline.

What AoS had was really a time-loop, that was broken by the events in the finale.

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This movie's problems aren't problems.

Perfectly happy upon first viewing.

In between viewings, made the mistake of getting caught up in other people's gripes.   

Perfectly happy again on second viewing.

The trick is to always be in the theater.

Because when you're there, you see that Thor's plight is treated with great seriousness, and the real gravity of it comes through in numerous moments of genuine pain when the audience isn't laughing.  (No actual person was confused into laughing at his trauma).  AND he's played for laughs.  Because both tears and laughter coexist all the time in life.  The symbol for drama itself is the pairing of comedy/tragedy theater masks.   But we can't handle such complexity anymore, thanks to the "I get jokes!" generation.  Comedy police.  You're not allowed to laugh anymore about this ever-growing list of topics.  Well.  Screw.  That.  Comedy is far better medicine than pills and displays of overwrought handwringing.

And in the theater is where you see the gay scene ISN'T easily deletable.  It's not fluff.  It's load bearing.  It's what sets up Cap's choice at the end, to move on and live life like he's telling other therapy group members.  This scene is what gives us our view into the mindset of post-snap survivors.  It's the new-world establishing scene.  It sets up Thanos' reason for changing his gauntlet wish this time to wipe out all life and rebuild a world of blissful ignorance.  Of course some regions of the world will remove all gay content no matter what, but by definition that means we can't do anything about that, and this scene's deletion will leave a hole in the plot logic, so it's not an easy to remove little nothing.  And it carries the filmmakers' personal endorsement.  So this problem is also not a problem.

And the second viewing allowed me to get a better handle on Hulk's most important time travel line.  The one that does the heavy lifting.  And once you see his meaning you become less suspicious of the way this movie lets time travelers get away with so much:  the future you came from becomes your past.  (And ordinarily we'd never expect the things we do today to effect what happened yesterday).   And for them, 'yesterday' is the future.   So their future waits unchanged for them.  The present reality doesn't change on them while they're away.  To change this reality they had to return to it first.   With their time heist winnings.  I can roll with that.   It's enough cover for their shenanigans to be believed. 

 It's all good.

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Because both tears and laughter coexist all the time in life. 

quite correct, the dialectical insight that one can rationally disagree with oneself.

But we can't handle such complexity anymore, thanks to the "I get jokes!" generation.  Comedy police.  You're not allowed to laugh anymore about this ever-growing list of topics

though this is dehistoricized and uncritical rightwing cliche.

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After the Far From Home trailer mentioning the multiverse I was trying to reconcile a multiverse with what I understood from Endgame which is the alternate realities only exist when someone creates them with time travel rather than there being hundreds, thousands, millions by default. I'm now laughing at the idea that Strange created 14 million timelines when he watched all the attempts play out and in 13, 999, 999 of those timelines the Snap happened and was never reversed. We can also add 2-4 new timelines that were created in Endgame, we know Strange only saw 14 million variations of "our" timeline not those as well since he's not seeing the one where Thanos just vanishes and the Snap doesn't happen. Strange could be responsibly for exponentially more death than any individual Thanos if this were the case :rofl:

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

After the Far From Home trailer mentioning the multiverse I was trying to reconcile a multiverse with what I understood from Endgame which is the alternate realities only exist when someone creates them with time travel rather than there being hundreds, thousands, millions by default.

I don't think you need millions of alternative universes to have a multiverse; just "some" is sufficient. And the timetravel seen in Endgame is probably not the first instance of time travel in the history of the universe; there could have been many previous branches over the past several billion years, with the earlier branches having branches of their own.

Agents is more problematic, since there's a feedback loop with events playing out repeatedly with slight variations an unknown number of times. Did their return to 2017 create a new branch every time? Or was the future in a state of flux until the loop reached equilibrium? Is there one branch with the destroyed Earth, many branches, or none?

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Bah don't ruin my attempt to make Cumberbatch the true villain :P

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1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Bah don't ruin my attempt to make Cumberbatch the true villain :P

Oh, my interpretation of the multiverse doesn't rule out Strange generating 14 million new awful timelines! :devil:

Though personally I'm not a big fan of the infinite multiverse idea; it makes it harder to care about the specific one we're watching if we know that for every single one of their triumphs and tragedies there's another equally valid universe where they failed or the tragedy was averted. Alternative versions of the world we know are fun, but I prefer them to be unique parallels (like Star Trek's mirror universe) or temporary changes to the "real" timeline or simulations etc.

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6 hours ago, Corvinus said:

What AoS had was really a time-loop, that was broken by the events in the finale.

I think I agree with everything you posted, to be clear all I was doing was trying to wrangle a theory in which AoS could still be in the MCU but where the snap didn’t happen (but, seeing as they referenced it, the initial attack did). I don’t for a second think this is anything they’ll address. 

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I'm now laughing at the idea that Strange created 14 million timelines when he watched all the attempts play out and in 13, 999, 999 of those timelines the Sna

i read it as cumberbatch traveling along his own life 14 million times, playing it ahead until he fucks up and then rewinding back to forks in the road to see where the other branches lead based on his own decisions. some of the errors crept in, say, when he told downey jr. to do what must  be done, which caused it not to be done, as he explained. not giving the stone to brolin had the effect of making swinton kill ruffalo later, and so on.  he wasn't jumping around in different timelines, but rather just fucking around with his own, trial and error, like a choose-your-own adventure novel that invariably ends in arbitrary death, except for a solitary path through the maze.

Edited by sologdin

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2 hours ago, sologdin said:

I'm now laughing at the idea that Strange created 14 million timelines when he watched all the attempts play out and in 13, 999, 999 of those timelines the Sna

i read it as cumberbatch traveling along his own life 14 million times, playing it ahead until he fucks up and then rewinding back to forks in the road to see where the other branches lead based on his own decisions. some of the errors crept in, say, when he told downey jr. to do what must  be done, which caused it not to be done, as he explained. not giving the stone to brolin had the effect of making swinton kill ruffalo later, and so on.  he wasn't jumping around in different timelines, but rather just fucking around with his own, trial and error, like a choose-your-own adventure novel that invariably ends in arbitrary death, except for a solitary path through the maze.

So your saying Dr. Strange picked the best path for his survival, as he couldn't see the outcome of paths where he died early.   So there were other paths that may have lead to a better resolution for the rest of the universe, but since Dr. Strange didn't survive in those alternatives, we are stuck with his best case scenario.

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32 minutes ago, Leofric said:

but since Dr. Strange didn't survive in those alternatives, we are stuck with his best case scenario.

Well, to be fair, Strange wouldn't be able to guide anyone through successful scenarios that he didn't survive. 

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dunno.  my reading might be unwarranted.  cumberbatch doesn't really die in his scenario--he's just on hiatus during the snap, disappeared but not dead, maybe?

does that mean he can't know what happens during the snap-time, but can only infer what happened by getting unsnapped and then interrogating everyone post-unsnap in order to ask them what they did--and then, backing up to pre-snap, through trial and error structure his last few moments with downey and gillan to initiate a causal chain that results in the unsnap and resnap?

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