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The Great Unwashed

Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS II

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4 minutes ago, sologdin said:

cumberbatch doesn't really die in his scenario--he's just on hiatus during the snap, disappeared but not dead, maybe?

Thats a big unanswered question.  I think all of the snap victims are either legit dead, or, best case, transported to the soul realm in some sort of unconscious limbo.  Peter Parker describes a near instant dying/reawakening experience.   I think if Strange were "alive" in any sense that allowed him to view happenings during the 5 year span, he would also have been able to interact with our heroes during that time through astral projection from his past or future self.  Fair, therefore, to assume actual death during the gap.

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My wife pointed out that while we get a big ol teary death scene followed by a funeral for Tony Stark, we don't even get a funeral for Black Widow.  What's up with that Marvel?  All we got was people looking sad for a few seconds and Hulk throwing a chair. 

My favorite part was when everyone steps out of the portals.  Really that was the climax of the movie, because once everybody arrived there was no question that Thanos et al were toast.

My least favorite part was the "Cheez Whiz?" line, because I expected him to say something like "Bourbon?" and that would have made a lot more sense, because Thor's alcoholism was a lot more of a problem than him gaining a little weight.  It's not like he gained that much weight, he'd look totally normal in a suit. 

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5 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

My wife pointed out that while we get a big ol teary death scene followed by a funeral for Tony Stark, we don't even get a funeral for Black Widow.  What's up with that Marvel?  All we got was people looking sad for a few seconds and Hulk throwing a chair. 

I dunno, Nat lived her whole life as a secret agent.  I think not having a funeral was probably appropriate.  The other Avengers knew and were appropriately remorseful.

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Nice movie.

Fun fact: I had to go on the internet to learn that the shot with all the female characters was controversial. While watching I didn't even realize it was an all-female scene, I just wondered what Mantis was doing there since her fighting abilities are -so far- mediocre.

Same for the fat jokes/shaming, I only saw a depressed man having let himself go. A likable one too.

Lots of cool bits. The movie was made even better by the fact that I'd completely forgotten the 1st phase superheroes had to retire or die... I guess I'm not enough into the MCU.

The hole time travel logic was bullshit as usual of course. Imho there's only two or three movies having managed to pull it off. Smart Hulk's speech got my attention, but nothing made sense to me as soon as they started interacting with others. I shut off my brain until they got back to the "present."

I feel slightly bad for Quill though. Is it me or has he had it a bit rough for three movies now?

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On 5/1/2019 at 4:36 AM, mormont said:

OK, one of the reasons I hate The Dark World so much is its outright offensive and crass treatment of mental illness in the character of Erik Selvig. That's an incredibly low bar to clear. But I do feel like the Thor stuff in Endgame has at least some points in its favour.

A big one is that Thor is allowed to be heroic and rediscover his worthiness without losing the weight. Or indeed the trauma. And yeah, there are fat jokes, but they sit alongside scenes that give weight to Thor's actual feelings, not just the superficial manifestation of those feelings.

It's true also that some of the humour is supposed to be seen as a defence mechanism by Thor himself. But a lot of it is also chuckling, not just at Thor's weight, but at him being mentally disorganised, unfocused and emotional. And that's bad. The film is trying to have it both ways to some degree, and it doesn't always come off: sometimes it's sympathetic, but often that gets lost. 

 

I didn't like the scenes of Selvig running around without his pants at all - stupid and gratuitous as well as unfunny.

I thought that Thor's earlier scenes (pre-battle) in Endgame were seriocomic - yes, it was funny seeing the golden son of Odin pigging out on pizza and guzzling drink; but it was obvious that Thor was having emotional problems, he'd lost most of the people he knew as well as Asgard itself.  He needed counseling; and that scene with his mother was well done and poignant.  By the way, I'm a fat person; and I was not at all offended by Thor's scenes.  He reminded me, superficially, of Volstagg in the Thor movies; but Volstagg enjoyed his life and Thor was definitely not over-eating and drinking constantly out of joie de vivre.

 

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3 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I didn't like the scenes of Selvig running around without his pants at all - stupid and gratuitous as well as unfunny.

I thought that Thor's earlier scenes (pre-battle) in Endgame were seriocomic - yes, it was funny seeing the golden son of Odin pigging out on pizza and guzzling drink; but it was obvious that Thor was having emotional problems, he'd lost most of the people he knew as well as Asgard itself.  He needed counseling; and that scene with his mother was well done and poignant.  By the way, I'm a fat person; and I was not at all offended by Thor's scenes.  He reminded me, superficially, of Volstagg in the Thor movies; but Volstagg enjoyed his life and Thor was definitely not over-eating and drinking constantly out of joie de vivre.

 

Fellow fat man here and I loved Thor in this movie. Nice to see that a fat man can still be a hero, that a six pack set of abs isn't a prerequisite to being heroic. 

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As the person that first brought it up in the thread, I'd just like to note that I didn't intend to get into it here - I brought it up to acknowledge that was an issue I'd seen genuine grievances about in comparison to some other false outrages. I think its great that you appreciated it like that, I think the criticisms I've seen online are legitimate as well and different people will take it differently.

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5 hours ago, Rippounet said:

 

 

 

I feel slightly bad for Quill though. Is it me or has he had it a bit rough for three movies now?

That's a good point. There was little to no redemption for his screw ups in infinity war and he is still down a girlfriend and two fathers.

Maybe, just maybe, Thor and him will become BFFs and the comedic rivalry is actually two people with a lot in common gravitating towards each other? I could see Gunn being keen on exploring that.

 

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Ygdrassil could be used to travel between the nine realms like a magic gateway network.   That's what made the 9 realms the gods' neighborhood.  (Loki falls off of bifrost into the abyss but it's not normal space because he ends up transiting the realms.  And the secret way to get from asgard to dark elf world was like traversing the world tree.)  

 If MCU isn't using a big assed tree in space because that'd be silly, but they still talk about Ygdrassil, maybe it's an energy matrix instead, like the deep space visuals from the end of Thor 1.  A nebula sized thingee holding all these realms in place.  Physics talks about a bunch of dimensions knitted together to make our reality.    (8, 9, 10, 16, the number changes along with the science).  The Norse 9 realms could symbolize those, in a cute simplified way, with lil' peeps living in each realm, because you gotta represent.    

Like what if a rift opened up in normal space that exposed a bit of these other dimensions normally hidden from us.  So you can start in normal space and steer your spaceship into this Ygdrassil nebula that's like entering a bubble of a different reality where you experience some altered physics (like a flat earth Asgard) and other "magic" effects. 

Earth, to qualify as Midgard, would have to be caught up on the edge of this weird region of space.  Explaining why the gods had a more special relationship with Earth than other planets like Xandar.  It might also explain why we have a sorceror supreme and why magic can flourish on Earth moreso than other worlds.   We're floating in a  (rare?) magically rich zone of space. 

Earth being in this exclusive club would help justify why so many of Marvel's big deal events happen around Earth instead of being more evenly spread out around the universe.   Hell, maybe the infinity stones liked hanging out on Earth so often because it was awash in this dense magic zone where the stones were free to do their thing at full strength.   

Whew.   Another of the great mysteries of life solved.   It's miller time.  No, Blue Moon , because this was a cosmic thing.   Now we just need to forward this to Marvel.   They'll be thrilled.   "Thanks for unifying our cosmology, Felix.  Here's an autographed photo of Happy's armpit.  Good day to you."

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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12 hours ago, Rhom said:

I dunno, Nat lived her whole life as a secret agent.  I think not having a funeral was probably appropriate.  

I'm sorry, but this to me is a really, really bad take. Nat was a secret agent for a while, yes, but she was also the Black Widow, a superhero on the premier team of superheroes in the world. Besides, even secret agents get funerals. The film-makers could have shown hers. It's not even as if Tony's funeral was a public event: it was very private and discreet. Nat's funeral could 100% have been held and shown. 

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3 hours ago, red snow said:

That's a good point. There was little to no redemption for his screw ups in infinity war and he is still down a girlfriend and two fathers.

 


I quite enjoy the fact that his being a hot-headed dumbass is so deep-wired into reality that not a single one of the millions of futures Strange saw apparently resulted in Quill not screwing up and stopping them from beating Thanos then and there.

 

13 hours ago, Maithanet said:

My wife pointed out that while we get a big ol teary death scene followed by a funeral for Tony Stark, we don't even get a funeral for Black Widow.  What's up with that Marvel?  All we got was people looking sad for a few seconds and Hulk throwing a chair. 

 

33 minutes ago, mormont said:

I'm sorry, but this to me is a really, really bad take. Nat was a secret agent for a while, yes, but she was also the Black Widow, a superhero on the premier team of superheroes in the world. Besides, even secret agents get funerals. The film-makers could have shown hers. It's not even as if Tony's funeral was a public event: it was very private and discreet. Nat's funeral could 100% have been held and shown. 



I mean, the reason it wasn't was pacing. Tony's got shown coz his was the major arc of the movie and indeed the entire series so far. Ultimately no movie can show everything. We didn't see Vision's funeral either.

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5 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I mean, the reason it wasn't was pacing. Tony's got shown coz his was the major arc of the movie and indeed the entire series so far. Ultimately no movie can show everything. We didn't see Vision's funeral either.

While this is accurate enough as far as it goes, it isn't the whole story, and parts of it reflect the existence of the problem rather than explaining why it isn't a problem.

OK, it would have been a pacing problem to insert a full Nat funeral after the stones are retrieved. But saying something would be a pacing problem doesn't mean it could not have been overcome, if the film-makers had felt it was important enough. They didn't. 

Nat's funeral could be put in at some other point: they could have replaced Tony's funeral with a joint commemoration, even. But they didn't, because - as you say - Tony was the main character and Nat was only ever a secondary character. And that in itself is pretty much the root of the complaint. Tony is a main character in the MCU. Steve is. Thor is, too. Nat, the only female character in the original five Avengers, is a secondary character, barely a step above Clint. At best, on par with Bruce. Or, since you mention it, the Vision. 

The lack of, heck, not even a funeral but a proper pause for the cast as a whole to acknowledge her sacrifice, illustrates that status in a way that's difficult to ignore. 

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I think there should have been some kind of state funeral marking the sacrifices of all the ones who fell in endgame eg stark and widow. Wouldn't have taken long.

In the general public i guess captain America is now dead too?

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Any chance Nat’s funeral could be covered in her own movie? Maybe they depict it at the start, some shady someone shows up and then it tracks back to explain them, a kind of prequel recounted from present day.

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The secret agent explanation falls apart anyways, when you consider that her past was revealed to the world at the end of Winter Soldier. Shit, she even testified in front of Congress. 

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

Any chance Nat’s funeral could be covered in her own movie? Maybe they depict it at the start, some shady someone shows up and then it tracks back to explain them, a kind of prequel recounted from present day.

Possible, I suppose. 

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