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The Great Unwashed

Avengers Endgame- SPOILERS II

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6 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Don’t have too much to add.  I will say that when Tony said “I am... Ironman” and then the screen went white for just a second, I half expected the screen to open back on the press conference from the end of IM.

They have made such a big deal about how they consider that moment of coming out the “beginning” of the MCU; I thought he might have just reset everything.  Obviously, that’s never what they were going for... but in my head when he said that, I went there.

Also... count me in the camp that says the stock photo of the female heroes was a bit on the nose.  Would have far preferred it if they had cut to scenes of each one kicking ass to clear the way for Capt Marvel (obviously unnecessary for the Uber powered one... but still).  Would have shown them each in their element without the awkward “Hey everyone!  Drop what you’re doing and come over here to pose!” moment.

*shrug* I loved that moment, but it also had most of my faves in it, so

 

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11 minutes ago, DMC said:

Alright, told myself I wouldn't comment on this until I saw it, but now I done seen it.  Their time travel logic is absolute, unequivocal bullshit.  Which is fine, whatever, but when you get all up your ass about shitting on, like, every time travel movie ever (many I didn't even get), it invites analysis.  Wert and Kal both had solid theories to explain this away, but I feel like sharing how I approached it upon viewing.  Also, that powerpoint presentation got way too hyped up for me, what a let down, thanks white Tilda Swinton.  Anyway, let's assume the 1970 visit with Pym and the 2013 trip to Asgard worked perfectly.  That's a leap in and of itself, but going off that - Let A = regular timeline.  Then:

  • Let B1 and B2 = 2012 when Loki gets away with the Tesseract
  • Let C1 - C4 = 2014 Thanos figuring shit out.  Also, something I don't think anyone's mentioned, if they knock out Quill at that point, isn't he killed/captured by the Djimon Hounsou-led Ronan dudes that he barely escapes anyway?

That's four different universes that inarguably happened, no matter what TAO says, and all we're seeing is B1 + C1.  Then you have Rogers going back, which you could have as A0 - A~.  Why wouldn't he step in when he knows what's going to happen?  There are literally hundreds of things between the 1950s-ish and today that, if I had the capability and knowledge, or motive and means, would have definitely changed to save innocent lives.  

Ultimately, the MCU is telling us not to give a shit about all that.  And that's fine.  It's just weird for a studio that went all-in on Iron Man, which was a very realistic movie responding to the Nolan Batman mold of the time.  Funny what happens in a decade.  It is now a thoroughly comic book universe where anything can happen because - to borrow a phrase from an infamous showrunner - "creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."

I think the idea is they not stealing the infinity stones from the past, they’re stealing then from alt timelines per the whole multiverse thing. It’s something they’ve done in the comics done, heck the dead character is back but an alt universe version has been done A LOT. It definitely could have been better explained though.

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13 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

I think the idea is they not stealing the infinity stones from the past, they’re stealing then from alt timelines per the whole multiverse thing. It’s something they’ve done in the comics done

Yeah, I get the idea of multiverses, but they have absolutely no idea how those multiverses are going to go, and don't seem to care by the end of it.  And I don't buy the "the infinity stones just collapsed all timelines" argument.  That makes absolutely no sense for the two examples I mentioned - Loki and Thanos.  Gamora 2014 will almost certainly be found in GOTG3.  I just wonder if they have Warlock in it too, based on the comics, if he'll be the one that returns regular Gamora and Black Widow.

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11 hours ago, Werthead said:

It's the latest one. So far they've confirmed:

WandaVision (formerly Scarlet Witch & Vision), presumably set before Infinity War.

Loki, a prequel following Loki causing mayhem on Earth before the events of Thor, in different periods of history.

Falcon & Winter Soldier, a "spy thriller" set immediately after Endgame.

Hawkeye, a sequel featuring Clint training up Kate Bishop as his replacement.

Hulk, a sequel featuring the Hulk we know and also Banner's cousin Jennifer Walters, who is destined (as per the comics) to become She-Hulk.

The first three are officially greenlit, the latter two are "in development."

So is that going to be passing the Hulk mantle to She-Hulk and if she plays well with audiences she gets an upgrade to be a significant character in the phase 4 movies? Not a bad plan if that's what it is. She gets an origin story, but it's not another bloody origin story movie, so she can hit the conematic ground running.

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41 minutes ago, Rhom said:

They have made such a big deal about how they consider that moment of coming out the “beginning” of the MCU; I thought he might have just reset everything.  Obviously, that’s never what they were going for... but in my head when he said that, I went there.

This is something I mentioned to my brother afterwards, and why it's bad to read spoilers before you watch something.  Tony held up on the "I am...Iron Man."  It should have just been a quick "I am Iron Man."  At least that's how I woulda directed it.  But what do I know.

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Three things.  Firstly, can people not discuss recent GOT episodes in any Avengers' threads?????

Secondly, on an old issue from early in the last thread.  The impact of Loki swiping the Tesseract and doing a runner.  The more I think on this, the less effect I think it has.  Loki had still lost the war, and he had to go and plot.  Specifically, plot on how to become King of Asgard.  Whether he does that in a cell or on a beach somewhere probably has minimal effect.  The key element that he returns for the major parts of Thor 2, which if he is spying on Asgard (likely) and learns his mother was killed, will almost certainly align.

So Loki goes off somewhere to plot, but with an eye on Asgard.  His mother dies, he returns with the Tesseract to help Thor avenge his mother's death, fakes his own death, replaces Odin, and voila, virtually nothing has changed. 

So really its only Stark sending memory wiped Thanos and co back rather than killing him which would be required to get the timelines back in sync, as long as Cap returns all the other stones without incidence.   

Finally, why do people talk about the women assembling, as well, assembling?  Lots of people have given motivations to it such as they wanted to support Danvers or were impressed by her.  Isn't it simpler just to assume they happened to be the closest heroes to Spidey at the time?  All the overlays are just the audience's perceptions.  

That's not to say Marvel weren't making a statement.  But I think it was about the art, not actually within the movie.  Within the movie, it just happened that the closest allies were all women.  

Edited by ants

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10 minutes ago, ants said:

Firstly, can people not discuss recent GOT episodes in any Avengers' threads?????

I don't think I've done that.  Also haven't read all of this, or the past, thread.  Gonna assume that is not directed at me.

11 minutes ago, ants said:

Whether he does that in a cell or on a beach somewhere probably has minimal effect.

No, it has potentially seismic effect.  Loki out there instead of stuck in a prison is a very significant shift.  Even if they promptly catch him, it means Thor or whomever weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing, which means..

15 minutes ago, ants said:

Finally, why do people talk about the women assembling, as well, assembling?

I really don't wanna comment on this, but it's came up a lot in this thread and even my brother bitched about it.  Yeah, it was clumsy corporatized feminism.  Who cares?  You're watching Disney's Avengers.

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Oh Oh Oh.

BetaRayBill !!!     

Mjollner was brought back so he can hold it, and stroke it, and weild it, and buff it, and shine it, and work it!  Beta for the cosmic phase!

 

Adam Warlock gets soul stone how?, if we're saying the stones are destroyed and not part of the new phase.   (Hey, they don't have an easy button anymore to explain where everyone's powers come from, either!)   Butt, if Adam gets anywhere near Gamora, that's some pelvic sorcery she will fall for, almost guaranteed, because of how Gamora don't remember Quill.  She'll move on, Quill won't.  Thor chuckles.  Then Adam insults Thor's ego too.  Quill and Thor bond over how something must be done about this guy.   

Do I trust Gunn to do great things anymore with this property, though?  Not after Guardians 2, which looked beautiful but merely "gave us some more stuff" instead of "working wonders" like the first movie did.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

Yeah, I get the idea of multiverses, but they have absolutely no idea how those multiverses are going to go, and don't seem to care by the end of it.  And I don't buy the "the infinity stones just collapsed all timelines" argument.  That makes absolutely no sense for the two examples I mentioned - Loki and Thanos.  Gamora 2014 will almost certainly be found in GOTG3.  I just wonder if they have Warlock in it too, based on the comics, if he'll be the one that returns regular Gamora and Black Widow.

Oh I think the consequences of what they did are going to come back to bite then on the ass for sure.

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59 minutes ago, ants said:

Three things.  Firstly, can people not discuss recent GOT episodes in any Avengers' threads?????

Secondly, on an old issue from early in the last thread.  The impact of Loki swiping the Tesseract and doing a runner.  The more I think on this, the less effect I think it has.  Loki had still lost the war, and he had to go and plot.  Specifically, plot on how to become King of Asgard.  Whether he does that in a cell or on a beach somewhere probably has minimal effect.  The key element that he returns for the major parts of Thor 2, which if he is spying on Asgard (likely) and learns his mother was killed, will almost certainly align.

So Loki goes off somewhere to plot, but with an eye on Asgard.  His mother dies, he returns with the Tesseract to help Thor avenge his mother's death, fakes his own death, replaces Odin, and voila, virtually nothing has changed. 

So really its only Stark sending memory wiped Thanos and co back rather than killing him which would be required to get the timelines back in sync, as long as Cap returns all the other stones without incidence.   

Finally, why do people talk about the women assembling, as well, assembling?  Lots of people have given motivations to it such as they wanted to support Danvers or were impressed by her.  Isn't it simpler just to assume they happened to be the closest heroes to Spidey at the time?  All the overlays are just the audience's perceptions.  

That's not to say Marvel weren't making a statement.  But I think it was about the art, not actually within the movie.  Within the movie, it just happened that the closest allies were all women.  

Well I have a theory about why that scene bothered certIn people...

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I had a few thoughts, but then I got high, and can't remember a couple of them.  The one I do:

All the new Avengers are way too powered up.  Don't think anyone's mentioned this, but Scarlet Witch basically beat un-Infinity Stoned Thanos until he cheated.  So you got her, Danvers, Strange, and arguably Genius-Hulk in terms of his capabilities.  Then you got the people in either really cool suits and/or serumed up with BP, Spidey, Ant Man and Wasp, and Winter Soldier.  Literally the only dude that's got nothing but a flightwing and now a shield going for him is Sam Wilson.  And that's the guy that's supposed to be leading everyone else?  Seems off.

Second..damnit, totally had two more thoughts.  Weed isn't good folks!

21 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Butt, if Adam gets anywhere near Gamora, that's some pelvic sorcery she will fall for, almost guaranteed, because of how Gamora don't remember Quill.  She'll move on, Quill won't.  Thor chuckles.  Then Adam insults Thor's ego too.  Quill and Thor bond over how something must be done about this guy.   

Heh.  That was good for a laugh.

22 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

Do I trust Gunn to do great things anymore with this property, though?  Not after Guardians 2, which looked beautiful but merely "gave us some more stuff" instead of "working wonders" like the first movie did.

I agree Guardians 2 wasn't the greatest, but who else you gonna trust?  He's got a damn good handle on those characters.

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So someone was telling me the LGBT community is up in arms over the guy goes on a date with another guy scene and I told them that seems unlikely, more likely is Trumpets being mad that Captain America is ok with gay people. Anyone heard anything about this,

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Oh one more thought, dammit. Someone was theorizing that Captain America doesn’t go back and live on the original timelines past, he goes back and stays in that alternate time line til Peggy dies then uses whatever he has saved up to scoot over to the original to let them know and pass on the shield.

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh one more thought, dammit. Someone was theorizing that Captain America doesn’t go back and live on the original timelines past, he goes back and stays in that alternate time line til Peggy dies then uses whatever he has saved up to scoot over to the original to let them know and pass on the shield.

It certainly resolves where that 2nd shield comes from. I like it better than Cap either hiding himself away in his timeline and sitting on his hands while Hydra does its thing, or Cap only semi-hiding himself away in his timeline and doing little bits and pieces to only somewhat disrupt Hydra.

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1 hour ago, Darth Richard II said:

Someone was theorizing that Captain America doesn’t go back and live on the original timelines past, he goes back and stays in that alternate time line til Peggy dies

It does not make sense that old Cap could just be there, yes.  I don't give a shit what TAO said, that changes things.  The original timeline is he's frozen.  If he's frozen + "doing it all day" with Peggy?  That's a different timeline.  Even by their own logic.  I love the whole you can't change the past insistence in these threads.  Uh, I don't give a fuck what the movie says about itself while it breaks its own rules, outcomes say differently.

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4 hours ago, DMC said:

Their time travel logic is absolute, unequivocal bullshit.  Which is fine, whatever, but when you get all up your ass about shitting on, like, every time travel movie ever (many I didn't even get), it invites analysis. 

I don’t read it as them ‘shitting on’ those movies at all, they were just making clear that their rules don’t work the same way.

4 hours ago, DMC said:

That's four different universes that inarguably happened, no matter what TAO says, and all we're seeing is B1 + C1.  

Well, I don’t know how to proceed with that. If we can’t rely on what knowledgable characters tell us, we don’t have any other sources of information. To be honest, you sound like Rhodey and Lang; you don’t believe Banner because of information gleaned from other movies.

I’m certainly not saying my version is without problems, Cap hanging around not doing anything as he grows old is an issue. I’m entirely happy that he could conclude that things worked out OK before, so it’s best to not interfere. The problem is the same as all time-is-set-in-stone versions of time travel; in theory, he can’t interfere as we already know what happens. So to poke the biggest hole in my theory I can think of: what happens when someone travels back in time, doesn’t remove a stone, but fucks something else up, and then hangs around till the time they left? I don’t know. Agents of SHIELD rules (not this last season, the one a few years back) says that something just comes up and stops you, but I’m not a fan.

But I’m happier with that than the idea of our Peggy not having a happy ending. And I don’t think Cap would settle for some alt-Peggy either. His appearance on the bench is clearly meant to imply that Cap grew up with the Peggy we know from First Avenger, so that’s what I’m going with.

 

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57 minutes ago, DMC said:

It does not make sense that old Cap could just be there, yes.  I don't give a shit what TAO said, that changes things.  The original timeline is he's frozen.  If he's frozen + "doing it all day" with Peggy?  That's a different timeline.

I definitely think the writers have had this ending in mind since Winter Soldier, and have been intentionally leaving the door open for it. When Peggy breaks down and cries and says “oh Steve, you came back to me” we assume she’s suddenly forgotten and is seeing him for the first time. But it can now be read as her suddenly remembering her life, in which Steve came back to her. 

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1 minute ago, DaveSumm said:

I don’t read it as them ‘shitting on’ those movies at all, they were just making clear that their rules don’t work the same way.

I dunno, the way they presented it was pretty dismissive.  Let's just say that's not the way I woulda wrote it, because it makes the movie sound like a dick to all other time travel movies.

4 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

To be honest, you sound like Rhodey and Lang; you don’t believe Banner because of information gleaned from other movies.

I'm saying I'm gonna hang my hat on logic rather than anything within the movie that Basil Exposition gives me.  There's plenty of movies that have their own internal logic, and I'm fine with it.  That's why I like Nolan, hell, both of them and the wife, so much.  Is because you can judge their shit on a clear established logic. 

There was no established logic here.  I expected TAO to tell Bruce what that was, and be that Basil Exposition, but all she did was emphasize a very obvious point in a cool way.  I mean, fucking Big Bang Theory did a better job of this with a whiteboard

11 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

But I’m happier with that than the idea of our Peggy not having a happy ending. And I don’t think Cap would settle for some alt-Peggy either. His appearance on the bench is clearly meant to imply that Cap grew up with the Peggy we know from First Avenger, so that’s what I’m going with.

What's the difference between "his" Peggy and alt-Peggy?  We saw Nebula kill Nebula.  There was no difference between the two, other than a few years.  We're probably gonna get 2014 Gamora getting hit on by 2023 Quill so they can do their Sam and Diane (I DON'T KNOW WHAT CHEERS IS) thing all over again.

11 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

When Peggy breaks down and cries and says “oh Steve, you came back to me” we assume she’s suddenly forgotten and is seeing him for the first time. But it can now be read as her suddenly remembering her life, in which Steve came back to her. 

Yep, agree there.  I think her whole part in WS was setup for this.

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5 hours ago, DMC said:

Iron Man, which was a very realistic movie responding to the Nolan Batman mold of the time.  

That is.... certainly not an accurate characterisation of that film. I mean, not that the Nolan Batman films are actually realistic, but Iron Man made no attempt to be. It was comic-booky as hell. 

5 hours ago, Rhom said:

Also... count me in the camp that says the stock photo of the female heroes was a bit on the nose. 

There's something about that camp that is very noticeable.

3 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

So someone was telling me the LGBT community is up in arms over the guy goes on a date with another guy scene and I told them that seems unlikely, more likely is Trumpets being mad that Captain America is ok with gay people. Anyone heard anything about this,

The issue there is that the LGBT+ 'representation' it provides is the most token representation imaginable. It consists of a few lines in a minor scene about a guy going on a date with another guy. The character is so unimportant he doesn't even get a name. The entire exchange lasts a few seconds and appears almost designed to make it easy for censors to cut it.  Even not being LGBT+ myself, I still felt it was a feeble effort: the absolute bare minimum required to say 'we did a gay scene'. I can see why LGBT+ people might be annoyed.

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