Dothraki and Unsullied

[Targaryen Peas]

10 hours ago, King Perkis said:

Agreed.  It annoys me that Ramsey was able to build some Flaying men and light them on fire during the BoB and yet, Jon did not have the sense to make fire pits throughout the battlefield in order to see. 

Well, we know the NK would have ordered a bunch of his infinite dead soldiers to just jump into the pits and put out the fire. 

The more I think about what D&D said on the after show, the more I realize it was either bullshit, or very bad thinking. 

[darmody]

17 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

 

The dothraki breaking the line and charging into the blackness was not a part of the original battleplan. 
It was however, fully in line with the impetuousness and recklessness of the dothraki, and showcased a major difference between them and the unyielding, utterly steadfast Unsullied. 

Daenerys is visibly shaken and breaks the plan as well by flying away, after she see's her people butchered in front of her.

 

I totally did not get that by watching the episode, but I suppose the Jolly Green Giant could have popped up in the middle for all I could see through the darkness. 

[darmody]

15 hours ago, Nightwish said:

 

Not that it makes any difference as the script writers decided to get rid of the Dothraki  all together in a very quick way, but I am also under the impression that it was expected of them to ride first in the pitch dark. For example Dany and John are silently watching and no one of the two wonders "what's going on? why did they leave? especially Dany and right after the arches begin to support them (who again shot at the pitch black).

LOL this is funny but honestly in the pitch dark? What army attacks this way? 

 

Here's where dialogue would help, but this show has developed a dialogue allergy. 

[darmody]

13 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Then again having the Unsullied and everyone else in front of the ditches and the catapults in front of them also made no sense. Any infantry commander worth his bread would have a line of watchfires, then a line of obstacles (not even necessary fiery ones) right in front of the infantry - that way the obstacles would break the momentuym of blindly charging horde and allow people with pointy stabby thing to poke at them from relative safety. Have several lines of such obstacles and retreat from them the moment they look like untenable, not the moment enemy breaks through. The wights COULD do technical stuff (as seen by retrieving Viserion) but that presumably requires a lot of focus from their handlers, hence preferred method is wild frenzy - and against that the obstacles will work even abandoned.

Have artillery behind the last line of defense, shooting over the heads of defenders.

Do not rely on dragons or fire arrows to light fire trenches. Heck, you have fires around the catapults, so have torches ready! If Mel did not show up, they would be all toast.

If Mel shows to be able to light swords en masse... Why not light ALL the swords of everyone?

As for tactical use of Dothraki... Very limited... But better off as melee infantry. Arakhs would do a solid on anything that is not armored, esp. if flaming.

Then again, Winterfell misses soo  many standard castle construction tricks. Such as proper gatehouses, moats... So for all we know the tactic was "Planetos state-of-the-art"

 

 

I find it impossible to believe they don't know about ditches and palisades in Westeros. Human beings have been building such fortifications since the Stone Age. 

Winterfell was not the best setting, except for the fact that Jon is king there and was an early True Believer in the zombie threat. Castles built with natural defenses like Moat Cailin and the Eyrie would make more sense. 

[darmody]

12 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Just as the wildlings view Jon as "some kind of god" after his resurrection and...well...they're kinda diminished as well.)

Wildlings explicitly do not see Jon as a god because he has an unimpressive wee-wee. 

[The Golden Wolf]

1 hour ago, darmody said:

I find it impossible to believe they don't know about ditches and palisades in Westeros. Human beings have been building such fortifications since the Stone Age. 

Winterfell was not the best setting, except for the fact that Jon is king there and was an early True Believer in the zombie threat. Castles built with natural defenses like Moat Cailin and the Eyrie would make more sense. 

Show winterfell sucks in comparison to book winterfell. It is way smaller and lacks the double walls. 

[DarkerStar]

Expendable brown people is the only reason I can think of for the Dothraki charge

[Wik]

On 4/30/2019 at 5:34 AM, RhaenysBee said:

They were finished in 30 seconds. All 100 thousand of them. And they weren’t even really reanimated. I was at least expecting their zombie versions to charge back at Winterfell, so there would be SOME point to their deaths. But no... we just wiped out two seasons of plot in 30 seconds. But who cares, the charge looked cool. 

LOL....did it though? 

[MinscS2]

12 hours ago, darmody said:

I totally did not get that by watching the episode, but I suppose the Jolly Green Giant could have popped up in the middle for all I could see through the darkness. 

Re-watch it, preferably in a dark room. (Not snark, the episode is honestly way better when you can see whats happening.)

Jorah is clearly their acting commander, standing slightly ahead of them and to the side, and he looks absolutely bewildered when they suddenly start to charge without a word. It takes a few seconds before he goes "fuck it, might as well..."

[RhaenysBee]

1 hour ago, Wik said:

LOL....did it though? 

I mean I guess  it must have if you were able to ignore the offensive idiocy of the context. 

[Wik]

1 minute ago, RhaenysBee said:

I mean I guess  it must have if you were able to ignore the offensive idiocy of the context. 

So, then the answer is no 

[Wik]

51 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Re-watch it, preferably in a dark room. (Not snark, the episode is honestly way better when you can see whats happening.)

Jorah is clearly their acting commander, standing slightly ahead of them and to the side, and he looks absolutely bewildered when they suddenly start to charge without a word. It takes a few seconds before he goes "fuck it, might as well..."

Point still stands, if they weren't in the front, they couldn't have done that. 

[RhaenysBee]

2 minutes ago, Wik said:

So, then the answer is no 

Look, it’s a matter of perception.  The creators clearly thought it looked cool and I’m sure a million fans who rated this shit 10/10 on IMDb agreed. And it’s not like it looked bad, but it’s just not something I can appreciate when the context is so painfully stupid. 

[Wik]

12 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Look, it’s a matter of perception.  The creators clearly thought it looked cool and I’m sure a million fans who rated this shit 10/10 on IMDb agreed. And it’s not like it looked bad, but it’s just not something I can appreciate when the context is so painfully stupid. 

I have to come here and look for my fellow hate watchers to get any affirmation ahhaha....all of my friends on social media ooze after every scene of every episode.... 

[MinscS2]

Giving this episode a 1/10 is just as strange as giving it 10/10, but just face it, while the "haters" are in (vast) minority to the "lovers", ultimately how we react to fiction is very subjective.

There's no right or wrong here, people are allowed to hate an episode and go "screw it, I'm done" just as much as they're allowed to go "wow that episode was the best thing ever!"

This should all be obvious, but I've noticed a trend in the last few days where people who dislike (well, "hate" is probably the correct term) the latest episode doing their best to diminish the opinion of those who like or even love it. 

Voicing ones opinion is fine, even welcomed, but when an "argument" is reduced to "people who like what I don't are morons" instead of actually pointing out the flaws of something and perhaps making people change their minds (if you care about that at all), then it's perhaps time to take a step back.

Hate the game TV-show, not the player watcher. 

 

[RhaenysBee]

34 minutes ago, Wik said:

I have to come here and look for my fellow hate watchers to get any affirmation ahhaha....all of my friends on social media ooze after every scene of every episode.... 

That’s why we are all here. Thank god for these threads

[Cas Stark]

29 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Giving this episode a 1/10 is just as strange as giving it 10/10, but just face it, while the "haters" are in (vast) minority to the "lovers", ultimately how we react to fiction is very subjective.

There's no right or wrong here, people are allowed to hate an episode and go "screw it, I'm done" just as much as they're allowed to go "wow that episode was the best thing ever!"

This should all be obvious, but I've noticed a trend in the last few days where people who dislike (well, "hate" is probably the correct term) the latest episode doing their best to diminish the opinion of those who like or even love it. 

Voicing ones opinion is fine, even welcomed, but when an "argument" is reduced to "people who like what I don't are morons" instead of actually pointing out the flaws of something and perhaps making people change their minds (if you care about that at all), then it's perhaps time to take a step back.

Hate the game TV-show, not the player watcher. 

 

Is it really subjective that the resolution of the white walker story completely undercuts Jon Snow's story arc?  Isn't that fairly close to objective reality, that the character whose sole mission in life since season 5 has been the WW, ultimately was completely useless in this regard? And isn't it fairly objective truth that the show threw out the window all it's previous inclusions of prophecy, nissa nissa, old nan's stories, the prince that was promised, lightbringer, etc. threw it away in favor of Arya Stark getting a big surprising moment?  I think also, the battle plan was objectively stupid.

I won't quibble with people who loved the episode, I guess, but people love a lot of things that are objectively stupid and illogical.  This show, unfortunately has turned into one of those things.

[Wik]

7 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

That’s why we are all here. Thank god for these threads

What really makes me laugh is that, GENERALLY, if you only have watched the show, you think everything is amazing.

If you are an avid fan for years and read and re-read the novels multiple times.....thats when you start seeing the true hate....

[Wik]

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Is it really subjective that the resolution of the white walker story completely undercuts Jon Snow's story arc?  Isn't that fairly close to objective reality, that the character whose sole mission in life since season 5 has been the WW, ultimately was completely useless in this regard? And isn't it fairly objective truth that the show threw out the window all it's previous inclusions of prophecy, nissa nissa, old nan's stories, the prince that was promised, lightbringer, etc. threw it away in favor of Arya Stark getting a big surprising moment?  I think also, the battle plan was objectively stupid.

I won't quibble with people who loved the episode, I guess, but people love a lot of things that are objectively stupid and illogical.  This show, unfortunately has turned into one of those things.

[MinscS2]

14 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Is it really subjective that the resolution of the white walker story completely undercuts Jon Snow's story arc?  Isn't that fairly close to objective reality, that the character whose sole mission in live since season 5 has been the WW, ultimately was completely useless in this regard?

No, because Jon still had a massive role in the downfall of the NK.
Remove him and there's no chance that Arya would've killed the NK in the latest episode.
I can name several reasons but I'll stick with one: If the Battle of the Bastards (where Jon played a big part) had'nt been won by the Stark-side, then Winterfell had still been in the hands of the Boltons, which would've meant that Arya would've gone south instead of north in S7. Arya going south means that she would'nt be around to kill the NK.

What if ultimately, in the lord of lights eye's, Jon was no more important than Beric. Wouldn't that be a twist and trope-subversion that so many on these boards seem to yearn for?
Ultimately the purpose of both, at least in the Life vs. Death-war, was to make sure Arya would stay alive long enough to do the deed. 
Jon did it by rallying the north and allying with Daenerys forces. The forces themselves being a mere instrument to what would allow both the NK and Arya to be exactly where they needed to be, when they needed to be.

See, it's subjective, as we don't fully agree.

 

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And isn't it fairly objective truth that the show threw out the window all it's previous inclusions of prophecy, nissa nissa, old nan's stories, the prince that was promised, lightbringer, etc. threw it away in favor of Arya Stark getting a big surprising moment?  

Possibly, but then again, no one (see what I did there?), be it show-watcher or book-reader fully knows what the prophecies mean or who they refer to. 

And if the show did throw them out the window, then so what? Does that automatically mean that you are subjected to either hate or love the show?
Again, you're free to dislike the show for whatever reason you want, which in this case is you disliking how the show handled some vague prophecies. Many will agree with you, even I do to some extent - but that doesn't mean that people who don't care about them and still enjoy the show are idiots.

 

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I won't quibble with people who loved the episode, I guess, but people love a lot of things that are objectively stupid and illogical.  This show, unfortunately has turned into one of those things.

And here you basically enforced my previous post. Thanks.

Edit: With that said, there's still 3 episode to go. 
Personally I'll wait with judging the entirety of the show and a large part of the audience until I've seen those, but for now I'll say that I enjoyed the latest episode (not a 10/10 though), despite it's many flaws.