Flashback R+L=J

[Figdoni]

15 hours ago, T and A said:

Do you have a book as a source material, that they did miss the point though? Or did they just missed the fan theories? Because as someone who has read the books several times, I don't know if they missed the point. Why? Because there is nothing in the books up until now, that makes me think that way. There is no NK in the books (yet), and even if there is a leader of the Others, the prophecy of neither PtwP nor Azor Ahai nor the Last Hero states a damn that he will kill this guy. ...

 

This whole post makes total accurate sense to me....
The only person who was fanatically conflating tPtwP, Azor Ahai, and the Battle against the dead was Melissandre.
Even Beric and Thoros, obsessed as they were about the coming battle between light and darkness, they weren't banging on relentlessly about the return of some mythical hero like she was. The red witches over on Essos might have been banging on about tPtwP coming back, but none of them cared enough about the Night Walkers to convince anyone to go help. So this deep conflation of prophecies and real life events stems really from Melissandre, a character who was shown repeatedly to be a completely & totally wrong fanatic.

Her fanatic interpretations of the prophecies have obviously infected all those complaining that the show has lost its way, anticlimactically...  y'all bought too much into Melissandre's nonsense. (yet there's been many clues, from characters like Varys & Tyrion, warning not to trust a fanatic?)  
But defeating the dead was never meant to be the main object of the story... Clue is in the title... Game of THRONES.

The NK, the whitewalkers, the wights... in context... made up only a tiny tiny part of the entire 8 seasons.
Yes, they were teased and dangled from the beginning like they were the 'end of humanity' amassing at the corner of the Westeros map, but the vast vast majority of the plots, story arcs, lives and deaths that have entertained us for the past decade took place with zero dead wight influence within those story plots..
All those dead Starks... the Jaimie arc with Brienne... Sansa's growth... the wiping out of the Martells and Tyrells... Baratheons...  Joffrey... not a single wight in sight! 
Were y'all not entertained by all that? Or did you think all of that was just killing time, waiting for some wights to show up and the 'real story' begins?

um...
 

[longest night]

Prince That Was Promised prophecies originate from Asshai and Melissandre is from Asshai, that's why she is heavily entrenched in the prophecies. The red priests from Volantis also use the prince that was promised and Azor Ahai interchangeably. 

Moqorro mentions 'Others are after Daenerys', and we know GRRM likes to play on words, and he seems to group Euron in the 'others'. After all, the god of death and darkness is suppose to be the "Great Other".

It also can't be a coincidence that the stories of the last hero in Westeros is linked to the Battle for the Dawn, fighting the Others and the fact that the 'Great Other' is the god of cold and darkness.

Aemon also uses the prophecies interchangeably. He asks Melissandre where the prince that was promised and links him to the War for the Dawn, when she acknowledges Stannis as Azor Ahai, and that he wields lightbringer. Aemon doesn't dispute the prince that was promised is suppose to wield lightbringer, he acknowledges it on his death bed when he tells Sam that it couldn't be lightbringer since it gave off no heat.

Other red priests do tell Tyrion that there is a hero that will "deliver the world from darkness".

We actually don't know much about what Thoros knows. He has long asleep powers awakening and moving, but we haven't been following his character long.

There's also the recent revelation from GRRM, that Aegon the Conqueror's motivation was to unite the seven kingdoms to defend against the northern threat since he believe his descendants would be more apt to defend against it.

[Nami]

Also let's not forget that a witch in the woods told Jenny of Oldstones that TPtwP was going to be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

[Deminelle]

18 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

Not to mention he gave up his claim when he became a brother of the night's watch and he bent the knee. There should be no conflict between him and Dany except for him not wanting to do his aunt. 

He was resurrected so the night's watch oath does not apply anymore. 

Bending the knee might be tougher to annul. 

[lakin1013]

10 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

 

Bending the knee might be tougher to annul. 

You don't need to annul Jon's bend, you need to add Dany bending to Jon. Which may or may not happen, if she is, or is not, alive.

[Deminelle]

9 minutes ago, lakin1013 said:

You don't need to annul Jon's bend, you need to add Dany bending to Jon. Which may or may not happen, if she is, or is not, alive.

Judging from the ep 4 preview she still looks very much like a leader and wouldn't.

[Figdoni]

9 hours ago, longest night said:

Prince That Was Promised prophecies originate from Asshai and Melissandre is from Asshai, that's why she is heavily entrenched in the prophecies. The red priests from Volantis also use the prince that was promised and Azor Ahai interchangeably. 

Moqorro mentions 'Others are after Daenerys', and we know GRRM likes to play on words, and he seems to group Euron in the 'others'. After all, the god of death and darkness is suppose to be the "Great Other".

It also can't be a coincidence that the stories of the last hero in Westeros is linked to the Battle for the Dawn, fighting the Others and the fact that the 'Great Other' is the god of cold and darkness.

Aemon also uses the prophecies interchangeably. He asks Melissandre where the prince that was promised and links him to the War for the Dawn, when she acknowledges Stannis as Azor Ahai, and that he wields lightbringer. Aemon doesn't dispute the prince that was promised is suppose to wield lightbringer, he acknowledges it on his death bed when he tells Sam that it couldn't be lightbringer since it gave off no heat.

Other red priests do tell Tyrion that there is a hero that will "deliver the world from darkness".

We actually don't know much about what Thoros knows. He has long asleep powers awakening and moving, but we haven't been following his character long.

There's also the recent revelation from GRRM, that Aegon the Conqueror's motivation was to unite the seven kingdoms to defend against the northern threat since he believe his descendants would be more apt to defend against it.

Yes, lots of references to tPtwP, and Azor Ahai, by lots of people... but none of these characters sounding like a stuck record about it, as though that is the most important plot detail & entirely related to the Night King drama. No-one welded the PTWP to the Night King in the way that Melissandre did.

But many fans on these boards now talking about the PTWP as a waste of time, pointless, over, anticlimax, ruined by D&D... just because the Night King situation was resolved and appears unrelated to Jon or Dany, the two main contenders for the PTWP... this thinking is dancing to the same plot drum as Melissandre, who consistently got it badly wrong... I think everyone saying that the PTWP theme is over and done has missed the point like she did


 

[lakin1013]

8 minutes ago, Deminelle said:

Judging from the ep 4 preview she still looks very much like a leader and wouldn't.

Yes, I agree and that is an interesting nugget.  What if Jon comes into his own, still the Jon we know, but now as heir apparent to the throne.  What if he begins to view actions and decisions through new eyes, as a potential ruler?  What if Dany knows this?  Could be problems in Kings Landing....

[longest night]

54 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

Yes, lots of references to tPtwP, and Azor Ahai, by lots of people... but none of these characters sounding like a stuck record about it, as though that is the most important plot detail & entirely related to the Night King drama. No-one welded the PTWP to the Night King in the way that Melissandre did.

But many fans on these boards now talking about the PTWP as a waste of time, pointless, over, anticlimax, ruined by D&D... just because the Night King situation was resolved and appears unrelated to Jon or Dany, the two main contenders for the PTWP... this thinking is dancing to the same plot drum as Melissandre, who consistently got it badly wrong... I think everyone saying that the PTWP theme is over and done has missed the point like she did


 

There is no Night King in the books.

[Figdoni]

1 minute ago, longest night said:

There is no Night King in the books.

Exactly!!!! 
Not yet anyway. But given that fact, it blows my mind how so many fans of the show are acting like the story's over & the rest is gonna be just wrapping up some niggly Cersei leftovers

[longest night]

1 minute ago, Figdoni said:

Exactly!!!! 
Not yet anyway. But given that fact, it blows my mind how so many fans of the show are acting like the story's over & the rest is gonna be just wrapping up some niggly Cersei leftovers

The story is over. For seven seasons we've been told Winter is Coming. It was gone in 3 episodes. Winter didn't even make it past it's second pit stop. The Long Night was 83 minutes long.

[Figdoni]

1 minute ago, longest night said:

The story is over. For seven seasons we've been told Winter is Coming. It was gone in 3 episodes. Winter didn't even make it past it's second pit stop. The Long Night was 83 minutes long.

How can you qualify Winter as being over, when it doesn't quite have appeared to have fully reached Kings landing yet?
Winter =/= The Night King.
 

[longest night]

Just now, Figdoni said:

How can you qualify Winter as being over, when it doesn't quite have appeared to have fully reached Kings landing yet?
Winter =/= The Night King.
 

The long winters are supernatural in origin, they stop once the Others are defeated.

[Figdoni]

1 minute ago, longest night said:

The long winters are supernatural in origin, they stop once the Others are defeated.

According to whom? Where is that written?

We've had 8000 years since the NK was last defeated.
8000 years of Starks still saying "Winter is Coming"
8000 years of people believing that the 'Others' threat was done and dusted... until the stories became regarded as mythical nonsense about "Grumpkins, Snarks & other monsters" 
...Yet the Starks et al carried on saying "Winter is Coming"

Literally NO-one was saying that in Westeros, thinking it had anything to do with some white walkers...
 

[longest night]

Just now, Figdoni said:

According to whom? Where is that written?

We've had 8000 years since the NK was last defeated.
8000 years of Starks still saying "Winter is Coming"
8000 years of people believing that the 'Others' threat was done and dusted... until the stories became regarded as mythical nonsense about "Grumpkins, Snarks & other monsters" 
...Yet the Starks et al carried on saying "Winter is Coming"

Literally NO-one was saying that in Westeros, thinking it had anything to do with some white walkers...
 

GRRM. After people tried to figure out his planetary rotation, he was asked. The unusual seasons is supernatural and it will return to normal by the end of his books.

[Figdoni]

Just now, longest night said:

GRRM. After people tried to figure out his planetary rotation, he was asked. The unusual seasons is supernatural and it will return to normal by the end of his books.

I'd like to see where that's written... because if its not in the books, then its not part of the story

[Figdoni]

In fact, it makes zero sense for GRRM to say that the white walkers are the source of supernatural forces, when the NK and the others were created by supernatural power which predates them considerably 

[longest night]

Just now, Figdoni said:

In fact, it makes zero sense for GRRM to say that the white walkers are the source of supernatural forces, when the NK and the others were created by supernatural power which predates them considerably 

I will certainly look for the quote, but he definitely said it. It was a huge debate over 10 years ago or so, and he resolved it. It's also mentioned in The World of Ice and Fire where Maesters came to the conclusion that the weather is magical, and that winter should come and go as normal. It was again confirmed in the TV show where the Children of the Forest did their ritual in the show, the tree they did it was summer, and they show it later and it's covered in winter.

[Figdoni]

The weather may very well be magic... but magic is way way waaaaaaay older than the NK, or the dead army.
The Weirwood network.... the dragons that made the dragonglass put through the heart to create the NK... the children of the forest themselves who created him.... the people who lived in Valyria making Valyrian steel... blood magic... all significantly older than the NK.
 Magic and supernatural forces can't die when the NK dies... he's just an instrument created by magic... same as any other weapon or instrument.
 It honestly sounds to me like some rumour mills took whatever GRRM said & ran with it out of context  . 

** edited to add... The Maesters don't even believe the army of the dead had risen, so it'd be more than illogical for them to speculating about their role in any change in weather.

[longest night]

8 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

The weather may very well be magic... but magic is way way waaaaaaay older than the NK, or the dead army.
The Weirwood network.... the dragons that made the dragonglass put through the heart to create the NK... the children of the forest themselves who created him.... the people who lived in Valyria making Valyrian steel... blood magic... all significantly older than the NK.
 Magic and supernatural forces can't die when the NK dies... he's just an instrument created by magic... same as any other weapon or instrument.
 It honestly sounds to me like some rumour mills took whatever GRRM said & ran with it out of context  . 

Assuming that it's similar in the books, the Children of the Forest created the Others as a super weapon to defeat humans. It's probably that they used blood magic to do it. With it came the first Long Night, and afterward long winters. They screwed up the ecology and destroyed themselves in their attempt to stop humans. According to recent GRRM quotes, it happened closer to 5000 years in the past, though legends say 8,000 years. The Wall looks to be built around 6,000 years ago, so somewhere in there. The Valyrians were rising to power around the exact same time.