The books are not going to end like this

[Ser Sinister]

25 minutes ago, McAssey said:

I for one will refuse to read anything else he writes or watch any other show in which he is involved until the final books are published.  If his entire fan base would do the same then maybe he would find the motivation to finish what he started.  If nothing else, he should publish a synopsis of the remaining plot so that our main questions are answered.

I agree with you about the synopsis, because I believe that GRRM is on record saying that he has discussed the possibility of him never finishing the books with other writers, and he has stated that he wants no one else to finish the series. I know a lot of people have the opinion that he owes us nothing, but it's the readers of his works and the people who discovered GoT through TV that made him his wealth, so I don't think providing us with a summary or wrap-up of some sort is asking too much.

[Urien the Ragged]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

They should have taken out Cersei first.  That's the answer, but the showrunners are in love with Lena, and so, she miraculously sits the IT and has a fresh army.  She will undoubtedly engineer the deaths of at least a few fan favorites, whose deaths will be meaningless, killed by a drunk and thuggish queen, to no purpose.  If I hadn't been invested in the books and show all these years I wouldn't bother continuing to watch or follow the show, but since there is only 3 more eps I will stick to the end.

I don't know, I think it's worth noting that Cersei's struggle within the TV universe has included her triumphing over adversity in a world dominated by men. Her story is a tragic one, with the loss of all 3 children through 3 different situations and both parents by her younger brother. She has exploited the innocent, yes, but her story isn't meaningless, and if we can assume that all figures in Westeros are shaped by their environments, her "evil" is a subjective evil and has doubtless been shaped by her circumstance and is subject to perspective.

A tragic human antagonist twisted and disfigured by the human experience in a world dominated by the opposite sex speaks more to me than does a zombie King whom we know nothing about, and has been teased only in the show and completely disassociated with White Walkers and army of the dead in the books.

[T and A]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But they themselves effectively confirmed that this didn't come from George. They said they knew it for about three years that this would happen. But their conference with George was 5-6 years ago.

This is certainly a WTF moment but it has nothing to do with George. I mean, the very idea that 12-13-year-old child can kill more than 1-2 Others/wights is ridiculous. She will never have the reach nor the strength to pull any of that of.

Not playing devils advocat here, but they said, they knew it since three years. It could mean, that GRRM told them then. That being said, I doubt it, as I already said, that I don't believe this is from the books. I don't know how that could happen. Alas, we don't know nothing about the Others in the books.

[Nihiloth90]

15 hours ago, neutralbhad said:

There's no way GRRM planned for Arya to kill the Others.

Anyone wielding Valyrian steel could have killed him, it seems. Defeating the Night King should have ultimately been a team effort; multiple people battling him, with one (or two people) landing the killing blow.

[Cas Stark]

30 minutes ago, T and A said:

No, I don't. I just don't know, how the show stated that Jon isn't the PtwP. What have you expected of Jon to fullfill that prophecy? He is responsible that Daenerys came to Winterfell. He and Daenerys led the War against the WW. What do you expect from a chosen one? That he makes the last blow?

Why would Jon be the PtwP, when he had absolutely zero impact on the battle?  If anyone is the PtwP it's Arya.  Dany's forces did nothing.  The dragons did next to nothing.  All that was needed was a ninja assassin.  They could have left WF deserted except for Bran and Arya and a handful of people, and had the same result.  Led the war?  Led their people to pointless slaughter you mean?  Caused the near extinction of the Dothraki for no purpose you mean?  I expect the 'chosen one' will do something, you know, special, important.  All Jon Snow has done is blab about how they needed every person they could get to fight the WW, and it turns out, they should  have pooled their money and hired a FM from get go.  This resolution of the WW story was asinine.

[Cas Stark]

14 minutes ago, Urien the Ragged said:

I don't know, I think it's worth noting that Cersei's struggle within the TV universe has included her triumphing over adversity in a world dominated by men. Her story is a tragic one, with the loss of all 3 children through 3 different situations and both parents by her younger brother. She has exploited the innocent, yes, but her story isn't meaningless, and if we can assume that all figures in Westeros are shaped by their environments, her "evil" is a subjective evil and has doubtless been shaped by her circumstance and is subject to perspective.

A tragic human antagonist twisted and disfigured by the human experience in a world dominated by the opposite sex speaks more to me than does a zombie King whom we know nothing about, and has been teased only in the show and completely disassociated with White Walkers and army of the dead in the books.

Eh, Westeros and Essos are full of women who are dealing with the patriarchy, but most of them, even the powerful ones don't become cruel, vengeful, murderous pieces of shit.  To see Cersei's story as some kind of feminist parable is doing a disservice to feminism and women and story telling.  Her problem is her narcissism and bad judgement, both of which are much more responsible for the disaster of her life than the patriarchy.

[BlackLightning]

26 minutes ago, Urien the Ragged said:

I don't know, I think it's worth noting that Cersei's struggle within the TV universe has included her triumphing over adversity in a world dominated by men. Her story is a tragic one, with the loss of all 3 children through 3 different situations and both parents by her younger brother. She has exploited the innocent, yes, but her story isn't meaningless, and if we can assume that all figures in Westeros are shaped by their environments, her "evil" is a subjective evil and has doubtless been shaped by her circumstance and is subject to perspective.

A tragic human antagonist twisted and disfigured by the human experience in a world dominated by the opposite sex speaks more to me than does a zombie King whom we know nothing about, and has been teased only in the show and completely disassociated with White Walkers and army of the dead in the books.

I would okay with this if Cersei didn't spend most of last season and all of this season so far drinking wine, glowering, plotting to kill her brothers (once again) and complaining.

[White Walker King]

53 minutes ago, Urien the Ragged said:

and both parents by her younger brother

That's an absolutely heartless thing to say.

[Ice Queen]

2 minutes ago, White Walker King said:

That's an absolutely heartless thing to say.

Yeah, I have to agree. Women die in childbirth all the time even today. The baby didn't kill her. She died because childbirth is damned dangerous. 

[Dex drako]

1 hour ago, T and A said:

No, I don't. I just don't know, how the show stated that Jon isn't the PtwP. What have you expected of Jon to fullfill that prophecy? He is responsible that Daenerys came to Winterfell. He and Daenerys led the War against the WW. What do you expect from a chosen one? That he makes the last blow?

Yes because that was the center focus of his story arc, it would be like little finger being killed by danni instead of Sansa. Jon's whole story has been about stopping the WW and for most of the story he was the only character to really care about it even in the nights watch. but the way the show worked out made Jon a footnote in his own story arc, the pay off going to a character that didn't even know the WW existed for 90% of the story.

its a horrible writing done to only to feed some infantile belief that unpredictability is somehow a good thing in a story. when infact an unpredictable out come is just the sign of a bad writer. after all a good story should make logical sense and give the readers a sense of closure. but to be unpredictable the out come can't be the logical outcome nor can you get emotional satisfaction out of it.

39 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Why would Jon be the PtwP, when he had absolutely zero impact on the battle?  If anyone is the PtwP it's Arya.  Dany's forces did nothing.  The dragons did next to nothing.  All that was needed was a ninja assassin.  They could have left WF deserted except for Bran and Arya and a handful of people, and had the same result.  Led the war?  Led their people to pointless slaughter you mean?  Caused the near extinction of the Dothraki for no purpose you mean?  I expect the 'chosen one' will do something, you know, special, important.  All Jon Snow has done is blab about how they needed every person they could get to fight the WW, and it turns out, they should  have pooled their money and hired a FM from get go.  This resolution of the WW story was asinine.

Arya can't be the PTWP because she has no turg blood, it is the one constant in the PTWP prophecy it they are born of the targaryen and starks and tully have never crossed gene pools with targaryen before jon's birth.

 

[Cas Stark]

I don't expect we will hear another thing about the WW, special princes, prophecies, red comets, or anything.  The show will drop it all, and move to KL.  I guess we will get some heart jerky moments of mourning the dead, maybe Missy can talk more smack to the racist Northerners, a slight chance Bran intones some couple meaningless lines meant to fully close out and its on to Cersei. 

[Tagganaro]

45 minutes ago, Dex drako said:

Yes because that was the center focus of his story arc, it would be like little finger being killed by danni instead of Sansa. Jon's whole story has been about stopping the WW and for most of the story he was the only character to really care about it even in the nights watch. but the way the show worked out made Jon a footnote in his own story arc, the pay off going to a character that didn't even know the WW existed for 90% of the story.

its a horrible writing done to only to feed some infantile belief that unpredictability is somehow a good thing in a story. when infact an unpredictable out come is just the sign of a bad writer. after all a good story should make logical sense and give the readers a sense of closure. but to be unpredictable the out come can't be the logical outcome nor can you get emotional satisfaction out of it.

I thought Jon should have had a little more to do in the battle, but can't agree that it's "horrible writing."  No idea if the show intended this from the start, but thought it was a really nice touch to have Arya kill the NK with callbacks to Melisandre's prophecy and to Syrio's words to her as well which took on a far more prophetic tone.

And even saying Jon should have had a little more to do...he's still the one who brought everyone together and organized this whole thing.  He got some heroic badass moments in, as did a lot of others.  Jon, Dany, Theon all delayed the NK long enough for Arya to get into place to save the day, etc.  Part of me wishes there was some kind of sword duel between Jon and the NK, but that's pretty cheesy honestly and I was fine with the reference to Hardhome in its place.  

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, T and A said:

Not playing devils advocat here, but they said, they knew it since three years. It could mean, that GRRM told them then. That being said, I doubt it, as I already said, that I don't believe this is from the books. I don't know how that could happen. Alas, we don't know nothing about the Others in the books.

We know when the conference back then were and George has referenced said conference again quite recently. There is no reason to believe he talked the story with them at a later point in time.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Why would Jon be the PtwP, when he had absolutely zero impact on the battle?  If anyone is the PtwP it's Arya.  Dany's forces did nothing.  The dragons did next to nothing.  All that was needed was a ninja assassin.  They could have left WF deserted except for Bran and Arya and a handful of people, and had the same result.  Led the war?  Led their people to pointless slaughter you mean?  Caused the near extinction of the Dothraki for no purpose you mean?  I expect the 'chosen one' will do something, you know, special, important.  All Jon Snow has done is blab about how they needed every person they could get to fight the WW, and it turns out, they should  have pooled their money and hired a FM from get go.  This resolution of the WW story was asinine.

Honestly, where in the books is it stated that the promised prince will defeat the Others? Where is it stated that Jon's Targaryen-Stark ancestry is going to make him *special* in any sense besides being him descended from the Targaryen kings on his father's side and the noble Starks on his mother's side?

I mean, when you break it down to the mere facts then all that might be important there is simply that he has the royal blood giving him the right to seat his ass on the Iron Throne. That's it. And he might still do that in the show.

Nobody in the books ever stated or believed that the promised prince was supposed to fight against legendary ice demons from beyond the Wall. Else Rhaegar and Aerys II and Jaehaerys II and any other king believing in the prophecy would have done everything in his power to strengthen the NW. It might turn out that the promised prince's purpose is connected to a new War for the Dawn, but this has yet to be properly established.

I mean, if you break it down then nobody has ever presented a concise or detailed case how 'the promised prince' is going to defeat the Others. We have no idea how that's going to work in the books and most of reasonably good theories on the matter - like the ones suggesting that Jon might take it upon himself to actually personally go (or fly, after he has become a dragonrider) into the Land of Always Winter to pay the Heart of Winter a visit, possibly since him being fueled by literal fire after his resurrection is going to enable him to withstand the temperatures up there - are routinely dismissed by the people who want to see Jon as this secret king guy.

In the books no dude with a sword or even a dragon is going to singlehandedly defeat the Others unless, perhaps, by reasoning with the force behind them. If there is a magic or a will fueling and driving the Others then this power likely cannot actually physically defeated - especially if that force were a very angry Child of the Forest. It has to be overcome in some other way.

[darmody]

26 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

callbacks to Melisandre's prophecy and to Syrio's words to her 

Mel's prophecy...that Arya would kill a lot of people? I was already guessing that. 

Syrio's words...which were just "die another day," as James Bond would put it. Arya might have a sentimental reaction to them, but that's general motivation . Doesn't have much to do with the present situation. 

[Lord Varys]

32 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

And even saying Jon should have had a little more to do...he's still the one who brought everyone together and organized this whole thing.  He got some heroic badass moments in, as did a lot of others.  Jon, Dany, Theon all delayed the NK long enough for Arya to get into place to save the day, etc.  Part of me wishes there was some kind of sword duel between Jon and the NK, but that's pretty cheesy honestly and I was fine with the reference to Hardhome in its place.  

Well, in the end anyone could do what Jon did in the show since one doesn't have to have *a special ancestry* to actually be able to organize people to resist a common supernatural enemy. That's something anyone in his position would have done, not to mention a lot of people who weren't exactly in his position but merely in similar positions.

This is another core error in all this prophecy-interpreting nonsense: The question whether the prophecy about the promised prince stipulates that said prince is the only person who *can do* a certain prophesied task (we have to keep in mind that no such task is prophesied to our knowledge since we have still no clue what the promised prince is supposed to do, but let's pretend for a moment we *knew* he was supposed to defeat the Others) or whether it merely foretells that the person called 'the promised prince' *would turn out to be* the person doing that specific task.

Or to put it more simply: Does the prophecy foretell that the promised prince is the only person who *can* take a shit next Wednesday or is he merely the only person who *will* take a shit next Wednesday.

If the latter were the case - and this is not unlikely - then this prophecy doesn't exactly mean all that much. There wouldn't even be *special prerequisites* or *qualities* inherent to this person. It would just be that the person referenced in the prophecy - with the phrase 'promised prince' simply being a designator to identify him and, accidentally, also his paternal ancestry - would be a normal person doing a thing anyone could do but only a specific person actually is going to do.

Such an approach fits much better with George's overall take on prophecy - because the prophecies in those books are not laying down destinies. They are not inevitable nor are they so precise that they determine the all the actions and the entire life of a given a character. In fact, even if it is clear to who they refer it is by no means clear how they will be fulfilled.

[nyser1]

"The books are not going to end like this" has been conceivable since at least since season three, maybe two. The differences in size have only since grown.

[Dex drako]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Honestly, where in the books is it stated that the promised prince will defeat the Others? Where is it stated that Jon's Targaryen-Stark ancestry is going to make him *special* in any sense besides being him descended from the Targaryen kings on his father's side and the noble Starks on his mother's side?

the PTWP, is clearly linked in the book to the "the last hero" and "Azor Ahai" both contextually and by characters like mel.  both of those stories are of a hero that lead the fight against the WW with a flaming sword. meaning there really isn't any other way to look at the PTWP prophecy then to being the tool to find the next hero to lead the fight against the WW.

there is no other point of its existence.

as for Jon's blood making him especial of cause it does in right there in the pages of the book. Jon is a strong warg because of magic in his stark blood. there is also the link his stark blood gives him to the last hero (thous the pact with children of the forsts and the WW themselves.) and bran the builder. his turg blood line links him to the magic of dragons most likely letting him ride a dragon and who knows what else including the known working prophecy that run through out the turg history..

he is literally the combination of the two strongest magical blood lines in the book making him one of the most magical

so yes Jon should be the main person in the fight for dawn, sure it won't be won by fighting alone but Jon should be the lead person show scores the big win. regulating him to simple organizer is a wast of story tell and makes it pointless to have the story resurrect him like they did.

3 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I thought Jon should have had a little more to do in the battle, but can't agree that it's "horrible writing."  No idea if the show intended this from the start, but thought it was a really nice touch to have Arya kill the NK with callbacks to Melisandre's prophecy and to Syrio's words to her as well which took on a far more prophetic tone.

And even saying Jon should have had a little more to do...he's still the one who brought everyone together and organized this whole thing.  He got some heroic badass moments in, as did a lot of others.  Jon, Dany, Theon all delayed the NK long enough for Arya to get into place to save the day, etc.  Part of me wishes there was some kind of sword duel between Jon and the NK, but that's pretty cheesy honestly and I was fine with the reference to Hardhome in its place.  

delaying the KN and organizing the army are not important roles in a story telling sense. they don't give good story telling oppositions and aren't very emotionally entertaining which is why those task are left to side characters not main characters. its not good enough to waist all these books and tv show seasons for main characters to left with just that.

more so when Jon has no other character arc to work with.

his whole story was about being the only person worried about stopping the WW/KN for 90% of the story. being the person to stop the KN himself should have been the climax of his story arc. should not have been given to a character that has no connection to the KN/WW at all and who didn't even know they existed for 90% of the story.  instead there is no emotional pay off for anyone invested in Jon's story now .

[Nightwish]

1 hour ago, Dex drako said:

the PTWP, is clearly linked in the book to the "the last hero" and "Azor Ahai" both contextually and by characters like mel.  both of those stories are of a hero that lead the fight against the WW with a flaming sword. meaning there really isn't any other way to look at the PTWP prophecy then to being the tool to find the next hero to lead the fight against the WW.

there is no other point of its existence.

as for Jon's blood making him especial of cause it does in right there in the pages of the book. Jon is a strong warg because of magic in his stark blood. there is also the link his stark blood gives him to bother the last hero (thous the pact with children of the forsts and the WW themselves.) and bran the builder. his turg blood line links him to the magic of dragons most likely letting him ride a dragon and who knows what else including the known working prophecy that run through out the turg history..

he is literally the combination of the two strongest magical blood lines in the book making him one of the most magical

so yes Jon should be the main person in the fight for dawn, sure it won't be won by fighting alone but Jon should be the lead person show scores the big win. regulating him to simple organizer is a wast of story tell and makes it pointless to have the story resurrect him like they did.

delaying the KN and organizing the army are not important roles in a story telling sense. they don't give good story telling oppositions and aren't very emotionally entertaining which is why those task are left to side characters not main characters. its not good enough to waist all these books and tv show seasons for main characters to left with just that.

more so when Jon has no other character arc to work with.

his whole story was about being the only person worried about stopping the WW/KN for 90% of the story. being the person to stop the KN himself should have been the climax of his story arc. should not have been given to a character that has no connection to the KN/WW at all and who didn't even know they existed for 90% of the story.  instead there is no emotional pay off for anyone invested in Jon's story now .

And Aemon believed it was Dany as he said the dragons prove it. The thing is we don’t know how Martin will use the prophecy, it can be a diversion. Also he has a tendency to “cancel” characters that believe too much in it such as Rhaegar and Melisandre. He can cancel the readers as well so we don’t know. 

[Dex drako]

46 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

And Aemon believed it was Dany as he said the dragons prove it. The thing is we don’t know how Martin will use the prophecy, it can be a diversion. Also he has a tendency to “cancel” characters that believe too much in it such as Rhaegar and Melisandre. He can cancel the readers as well so we don’t know. 

of cause its Jon he's the answer to the central mystery of the story and  tons of foreshadowing. as a writer there is no other reason to hid his trug linage if it wasn't a major plot importance and there is nothing more plot important then the fact the PTWP needs to have turg blood.  GRRM is not going to throw away 5 books worth of foreshadowing this close to the end.

its a new phenomena that bad writing believe being illogically unpredictable is somehow a good thing.

those characters died to keep the mystery of the answer until the right point in the story.

[Nightwish]

2 minutes ago, Dex drako said:

of cause its Jon he's the answer to the central mystery of the story and  tons of foreshadowing. as a writer there is no other reason to hid his trug linage if it wasn't a major plot importance and there is nothing more plot important then the fact the PTWP needs to have turg blood.  GRRM is not going to throw away 5 books worth of foreshadowing this close to the end.

its a new phenomena that bad writing believe being illogically unpredictable is somehow a good thing.

those characters died to keep the mystery of the answer until the right point in the story.

You are welcome to believe every theory you enjoy. I don’t believe it, unless I read it or see it. And the reasons I do this is because especially Got has turned rather complicated after turning into a show and after all of this kind of delays and problematic scripts. I have no idea which material comes from Martin or is purely DD. Authors also like surprises and Jon’s importance in the book has not been revealed yet. The prophecy can be a diversion, can be 3 people or one or no one.