The books are not going to end like this

[longest night]

Could you imagine an entire TV show with the shallow illogical writing of Benioff and Weiss? Lucas Arts are morons for hiring these C-tier writers for anything, but I guess that fits considering the crappy writers they have had for Star Wars already.

[T and A]

29 minutes ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

I think they will get Executive Producer Credits, but have minimal involvement.

They are going to work for Disney (Lucasfilm)

Maybe they are Excecutive Producers. I havent read that anywhere. But they will have no involvement in writing, creating, directing or casting of the show. 

[T and A]

28 minutes ago, longest night said:

Could you imagine an entire TV show with the shallow illogical writing of Benioff and Weiss? Lucas Arts are morons for hiring these C-tier writers for anything, but I guess that fits considering the crappy writers they have had for Star Wars already.

Star Wars had crappy writers since this movie franchise begun. It is only praised because of nostalgia. The first movie is full of loopholes, bad acting and deus-ex-machina moments. The third movie is fan service, bad action, and toy merchendising. The only movie that is kind of OK, is "The Empire strikes back", and it was not written or directed by George Lucas. The prequels should not even be concidered movies. The Force Awakens is a 100% copy of the first Star Wars movie. The Last Jedi shits on the previous movie. There you go. This is basically Star Wars. There is not much that Benioff and Weiss could destroy. The worst episode of GoT is not even remotely as bad as most of the Star Wars movies. But the Star Wars franchise and its fandom will continue, for reasons that are beyond me. 

[Tagganaro]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, in the end anyone could do what Jon did in the show since one doesn't have to have *a special ancestry* to actually be able to organize people to resist a common supernatural enemy. That's something anyone in his position would have done, not to mention a lot of people who weren't exactly in his position but merely in similar positions.

This is another core error in all this prophecy-interpreting nonsense: The question whether the prophecy about the promised prince stipulates that said prince is the only person who *can do* a certain prophesied task (we have to keep in mind that no such task is prophesied to our knowledge since we have still no clue what the promised prince is supposed to do, but let's pretend for a moment we *knew* he was supposed to defeat the Others) or whether it merely foretells that the person called 'the promised prince' *would turn out to be* the person doing that specific task.

....

Such an approach fits much better with George's overall take on prophecy - because the prophecies in those books are not laying down destinies. They are not inevitable nor are they so precise that they determine the all the actions and the entire life of a given a character. In fact, even if it is clear to who they refer it is by no means clear how they will be fulfilled.

I agree with this.  I don't think the show is or was very interested in this prophecy even though it was hinted at last year.

19 hours ago, darmody said:

Mel's prophecy...that Arya would kill a lot of people? I was already guessing that. 

Syrio's words...which were just "die another day," as James Bond would put it. Arya might have a sentimental reaction to them, but that's general motivation . Doesn't have much to do with the present situation. 

Mileage may vary of course, but I really liked the idea of the "blue eyes" Mel referred to being the Others.  

And I completely disagree with your second part.  Again I would guess this was not planned from the start, but "saying no to the God of Death" has a whole lot to do with the present situation so I liked it in that sense.  You don't get more "god of death" than the Night King .

 

[#teamNightking]

23 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

And I completely disagree with your second part.  Again I would guess this was not planned from the start, but "saying no to the God of Death" has a whole lot to do with the present situation so I liked it in that sense.  You don't get more "god of death" than the Night King 

Yeah here's the thing. According to many in Essos and I'd say in particular Arya, the god of death is the many faced god not the Night King. 

The many faced god offers a merciful death. The night king raises the dead, one could argue even stealing from the god of death. 

So the phrase doesn't really make sense. But Arya understood the implication even if I don't. ; )

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

13 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

That's a possibility. It could also amount to ASOIAF trying to subvert the fantasy trope of the ancient big bad by having the final confrontation fall back to the very "game of thrones" that started it all. That way, the series  comes full circle. All along, we've been told how the Others were the real threat, but ultimately it's the fight for the Iron Throne that's at the heart of it. The Others therefore end up being a simple distraction (that needs to be taken care of) along the way) to human greed and ambition.

 In a way, that does somewhat make it less climatic, but that could very well be what the author had in mind all along.

I agree. It's why I correctly predicted that the Night King would be killed off in E3. The Others as the final threat just puts this fantasy novel backwards from Tolkien, and makes it another Tolkien imitation. The final threat will always be humans - each other. The reason why the novel was different was because of the game and the blend of fantasy and medieval history. It has to end on what made the books different. 

That said since the Others and Dany are the ice vs. fire of the title, I dont think the magical threats have completely been eliminated. Fire magic is still a big threat to the kingdoms. Its just framed as a pursuit for the throne now. 

[House Cambodia]

36 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I agree. It's why I correctly predicted that the Night King would be killed off in E3. The Others as the final threat just puts this fantasy novel backwards from Tolkien, and makes it another Tolkien imitation. The final threat will always be humans - each other. The reason why the novel was different was because of the game and the blend of fantasy and medieval history. It has to end on what made the books different. 

Thing is, isn't shouldn't be like this. I still maintain that The Others are not cartoon nihilists like Daleks, but an allegory of Climate Breakdown. As such, they are not so much consciously evil like Sauron, but the karmic nemesis of 8000 years of humans treating the environment and the old gods with contempt whilst playing their games of thrones. The show utterly destroyed the depths of meaning and theme in exchange for cheap and hollow thrills.

[Ice Queen]

2 hours ago, T and A said:

Star Wars had crappy writers since this movie franchise begun. It is only praised because of nostalgia. The first movie is full of loopholes, bad acting and deus-ex-machina moments. The third movie is fan service, bad action, and toy merchendising. The only movie that is kind of OK, is "The Empire strikes back", and it was not written or directed by George Lucas. The prequels should not even be concidered movies. The Force Awakens is a 100% copy of the first Star Wars movie. The Last Jedi shits on the previous movie. There you go. This is basically Star Wars. There is not much that Benioff and Weiss could destroy. The worst episode of GoT is not even remotely as bad as most of the Star Wars movies. But the Star Wars franchise and its fandom will continue, for reasons that are beyond me. 

The first movie touched that collective unconscious in a way no film had done before. All fantasy writers understand the Hero's Journey and are well versed in both mythology and psychology. Joseph Campbell once called George Lucas the best student he ever had. 

Lucas was an awful writer, no doubt about it. As Harrison Ford said to him, "You can write this shit, George, but you can't say it." And yet, the themes and journey that Star Wars was about is what captured our imaginations. 

It's why we love Lord of the Rings. And The Song of Ice and Fire. Each author has managed to tap something inside of us, something that we feel as one with on a visceral level. That's why the stories are so successful in their respective media. 

[House Cambodia]

5 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

The first movie touched that collective unconscious in a way no film had done before. All fantasy writers understand the Hero's Journey and are well versed in both mythology and psychology. Joseph Campbell once called George Lucas the best student he ever had. 

Lucas was an awful writer, no doubt about it. As Harrison Ford said to him, "You can write this shit, George, but you can't say it." And yet, the themes and journey that Star Wars was about is what captured our imaginations. 

It's why we love Lord of the Rings. And The Song of Ice and Fire. Each author has managed to tap something inside of us, something that we feel as one with on a visceral level. That's why the stories are so successful in their respective media. 

Very well said - although LOTR and SW followed those primal tropes to the letter, whereas in our modern cynical age, GRRM has tapped into the zeitgeist of subverting a lot of the traditional tropes.

[MinscS2]

One can debate whether a force or entity that unwillingly kills is evil or neutral if they are forced too because that's what they where created to do and/or because they have no choice in the matter.

However, the Nightking in the show is clearly depicted as arrogant and evil.
He might have been a weapon gone rogue, who still only does what he was created to do millennia later, but he has a personality, makes his own choices and clearly enjoys what he's doing.

- The way he killed Theon. Holding his wights and WW's back and essentially forcing Theon into a 1v1 he know he couldn't loose and then killing him with his own weapon, seemingly taking pleasure in the act.

- Wanting to kill Bran on his own. There's no reason for him to do this, as any wight would be able to kill a boy in a wheelchair, but he wants to do it himself. That makes it personal, and he, to his own detriment, holds his army back so he can do it himself, for no other reason than him wanting to do it.

- Seemingly having some sort of Vendetta with Jon. While it ultimately didn't lead anywhere, he clearly didn't like Jon and saw him as someone who was interfering with his plans. 

- Smirking in Daenerys face after Drogon spews dragonfire on him and he emerges completely unharmed. 

I can probably think of more cases where the NK acts like an evil autonomous being. 

Diseases like Ebola are horrible, but neutral.
Death as a concept is horrible, but ultimately neutral.
The Nightking is horrible, but evil.
 

[House Cambodia]

^ Yes, but remember that is 100% the TV show. This thread is comparing the books, and there isn't even an entity known as the Night King in them.

[Lady Anna]

14 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

That's a possibility. It could also amount to ASOIAF trying to subvert the fantasy trope of the ancient big bad by having the final confrontation fall back to the very "game of thrones" that started it all. That way, the series  comes full circle. All along, we've been told how the Others were the real threat, but ultimately it's the fight for the Iron Throne that's at the heart of it. The Others therefore end up being a simple distraction (that needs to be taken care of) along the way) to human greed and ambition.

In a way, that does somewhat make it less climatic, but that could very well be what the author had in mind all along.

I don't think this is something the books show/imply at all.  I don't think this is what things are leading up to tbh.

[Rose of Red Lake]

15 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Very well said - although LOTR and SW followed those primal tropes to the letter, whereas in our modern cynical age, GRRM has tapped into the zeitgeist of subverting a lot of the traditional tropes.

Yeah, GRRM says he doesn't follow Joseph Campbell as an influence. He's not writing the monomyth. Star Wars does that.

25 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Thing is, isn't shouldn't be like this. I still maintain that The Others are not cartoon nihilists like Daleks, but an allegory of Climate Breakdown. As such, they are not so much consciously evil like Sauron, but the karmic nemesis of 8000 years of humans treating the environment and the old gods with contempt whilst playing their games of thrones. The show utterly destroyed the depths of meaning and theme in exchange for cheap and hollow thrills.

Well, go back to the Frost poem. How will the world end: fire or ice? This is still on the table, because fire magic is still very much around. GRRM has also made statements that dragons represent WMD. Remember this book was written only 6 years after the Chernobyl disaster and nuclear holocaust is a theme of a lot of sci-fi. The god-like people who use magic and control the fates of the non-special primitives is also very Lord of Light (Zelazny). I think show-wise they are going to focus more on the quest for power as a statement, through Dany and Cersei. 

Regardless of their depth that may or may not be filled in by the books, the Others are human-created threats and the show just distilled that down. Personally, I don't think the Others will ever be fully explained in the books as much as some would like; the author doesn't want to lean too much on fantasy/magic or explanations in great detail. He seems to prefer that the magic and history to be lost, poorly understood, and unclear. The Tales of the Dying Earth never really reveals the full backstory of why magic was still around; humans were just using it but having no idea what they were doing. It raises the stakes. The Others aren't that interesting to me in books or in show because people are always going to be more complex. 

[El Guapo]

23 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Why would Jon be the PtwP, when he had absolutely zero impact on the battle?  If anyone is the PtwP it's Arya.  Dany's forces did nothing.  The dragons did next to nothing.  All that was needed was a ninja assassin.  They could have left WF deserted except for Bran and Arya and a handful of people, and had the same result.  Led the war?  Led their people to pointless slaughter you mean?  Caused the near extinction of the Dothraki for no purpose you mean?  I expect the 'chosen one' will do something, you know, special, important.  All Jon Snow has done is blab about how they needed every person they could get to fight the WW, and it turns out, they should  have pooled their money and hired a FM from get go.  This resolution of the WW story was asinine.

 

They all would have been slaughtered. Every one of them. You are talking about tens of thousands of undead attacking a handful of people. The Night King would even have to get involved in the "battle". lol

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, El Guapo said:

 

They all would have been slaughtered. Every one of them. You are talking about tens of thousands of undead attacking a handful of people. The Night King would even have to get involved in the "battle". lol

He didn't have to get involved in the battle we saw either.  So, whether he beats back 150,000 people or 10, he apparently wanted to kill Bran himself. 

[Ice Queen]

4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, GRRM says he doesn't follow Joseph Campbell as an influence. He's not writing the monomyth. Star Wars does that.

Well, go back to the Frost poem. How will the world end: fire or ice? This is still on the table, because fire magic is still very much around. GRRM has also made statements that dragons represent WMD. Remember this book was written only 6 years after the Chernobyl disaster and nuclear holocaust is a theme of a lot of sci-fi. The god-like people who use magic and control the fates of the non-special primitives is also very Lord of Light (Zelazny). I think show-wise they are going to focus more on the quest for power as a statement, through Dany and Cersei. 

Regardless of their depth that may or may not be filled in by the books, the Others are human-created threats and the show just distilled that down. Personally, I don't think the Others will ever be fully explained in the books as much as some would like; the author doesn't want to lean too much on fantasy/magic or explanations in great detail. He seems to prefer that the magic and history to be lost, poorly understood, and unclear. The Tales of the Dying Earth never really reveals the full backstory of why magic was still around; humans were just using it but having no idea what they were doing. It raises the stakes. The Others aren't that interesting to me in books or in show because people are always going to be more complex. 

I mentioned in another thread when climate change came up that ASOIAF is more likely to be about nuclear winter than climate change. The outlines were written in 1993 which is well before climate change was a thing. George is a child of the Cold War, and nuclear annihilation, and the winter that followed, was a very real threat. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

7 minutes ago, Ice Queen said:

I mentioned in another thread when climate change came up that ASOIAF is more likely to be about nuclear winter than climate change. The outlines were written in 1993 which is well before climate change was a thing. George is a child of the Cold War, and nuclear annihilation, and the winter that followed, was a very real threat. 

Right, he's old school in that way. You can see this in Fire and Blood when Aerea comes back from Valyria. Seems like he's trying to convey the the horrors of nuclear fallout and what it does to people's bodies. Valyria and Asshai are places poisoned by magical pollution. That still could happen to Westeros in the next 3 episodes.

[El Guapo]

10 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He didn't have to get involved in the battle we saw either.  So, whether he beats back 150,000 people or 10, he apparently wanted to kill Bran himself. 

The point being if there was only a "handful" of people and Arya guarding Bran they all would have been dead because there is no way say 100 people can beat an army of 100,000.  Of course the flaw in the NK's plan is I don't know if the undead are intelligent enough to kill everyone except the kid in the wheelchair.

[El Guapo]

Of course we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Jon had stopped screaming in undead Viserions face and went into the Godswood and killed the NK himself.

[MinscS2]

People are using the power of hindsight from the audience's perspective in a really weird way regarding what transpired in episode 3 and how it instead "should've" and "shouldn't" have happened... 

It's almost like the characters in the show didn't have this near omniscient power that we as viewers do.
(Well they kinda do in Bran, but he went into screen-saver mode half-way trough the battle.)