Jump to content
neutralbhad

The books are not going to end like this

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Greenmonsterff said:

I don’t think this story has anything to do with climate change. That’s just some idiot’s interpretation somehow trying to make the story something it is not. 

This guy gets it!!! Love this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Greenmonsterff said:

Not exactly. He said there are parallels, but he wasn’t thinking about climate change when he wrote the story.

https://thinkprogress.org/george-r-r-martin-confirms-that-yes-game-of-thrones-is-a-climate-change-parable-8ca53041c8d3/

Yes, I think there's enough in what he says to suggest that the allegorical element will be drawn out much more in the next book. It's just so utterly naff that such an existential threat that the Starks and Night's Watch spent thousands of years preparing for was extinguished in a few hours, with The Long Night lasting no longer than a regular night.

It terrifies me to think that he might have hinted that his books will conclude along similar lines to the show - I hope to god (a) they're finished and (b) they are very very different to the shoddily-written last episodes of the TV show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

Yep. No Night King in the book. But I think the issue is the end of the others and their defeat being at the hands of Arya, Night King or no. 

What doesn't make sense to me though (Books and Show) is that R'hllor, is an Essos diety. His followers live in Essos. His enemy the Great Other (?) is somehow related to the Others who are in the North end of Westeros. Faaaaar away. ?? Or not. 

And according to the history and/or prophecy Azor Ahai thousands of years ago fought the others and won, possibly? Or something else?  And where? And who was he? A Stark? A Targaryan? Did he have an army? Was he even Westerosi or from Essos?

Because what makes more sense is Azor Ahai never had anything to do with the others and it's an Essos myth. And according to the myth the whole world was dark. So if it was Others the dead were everywhere and the Long Night had come? Makes no sense. 

In the TV show we have this great battle against the Others and only one priestess of R'hllor bothers to show up. Lol . They just seem to not know or care. 

Or only Melisandre and her supporters believed Azor Ahai was connected to the Westeros others. 

Even In the books too the red god's followers are pretty much all in Essos ignoring the threat in the North and happily oblivious to the return of the Others a continent away and the impending Long Night. 

None of it makes any sense to me other than it's all a myth but helped to get Mellisandre involved and she actually had power which helped them win. 

So maybe the show was wise to wrap up this plotline in a little bow and can it. 

I don't remember if it was the history book or show but the Long Night carries through religion/cultural stories.  Across the narrow sea there were several different locations with similar stories of the Long Night that had similar details.  I think it was when Sam was talking to the Maester at the Citadel.  Not saying it answers your questions but without the remaining books I don't think we'll learn anytime soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, House Cambodia said:

Yes, I think there's enough in what he says to suggest that the allegorical element will be drawn out much more in the next book. It's just so utterly naff that such an existential threat that the Starks and Night's Watch spent thousands of years preparing for was extinguished in a few hours, with The Long Night lasting no longer than a regular night.

It terrifies me to think that he might have hinted that his books will conclude along similar lines to the show - I hope to god (a) they're finished and (b) they are very very different to the shoddily-written last episodes of the TV show.

With ya on this.  Also begs the question of why the prequel being made is going to center on the Long Night? I'm sure it will lead to more questions than answers if that show actually gets made.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

There's also no reason to believe that a lot of the White Walkers and their undead legions won't walk right around Winterfell and invade the south. It's not like the people at Winterfell could do anything about it considering that they would be fighting for their own lives.

I just refuse to believe that the Others will not be a problem for anyone south of the Neck. I refuse to believe it. The Others and their army of the dead and the monstrous should absolutely be a problem...from Oldtown to Skagos.

And there's also the not-so-small matter of the Lands of Always Winter and the Heart of Winter itself. Bran saw something there that made him cry. Something that made him want to live and be the Three-Eyed Raven

Here's the problem. Every battle won their army grows. By the time the AotD hit Harrenhal or King's Landing it would likely be several million strong having added all the North and the Riverlands at the very least. Undefeatable.

Without Arya, anyway ; )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, King Perkis said:

With ya on this.  Also begs the question of why the prequel being made is going to center on the Long Night? I'm sure it will lead to more questions than answers if that show actually gets made.

The 'origins story' parts are my favourite bits of ASOIAF, so I'm hoping the series is good. Maybe D&D decided to save all the good Long Night stuff for the next series and just abandon the whole point in GoT. I dunno, it was ridiculous, but it doesn't mean the new show has to be too, right? :-(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, #teamNightking said:

Here's the problem. Every battle won their army grows. By the time the AotD hit Harrenhal or King's Landing it would likely be several million strong having added all the North and the Riverlands at the very least. Undefeatable.

Without Arya, anyway ; )

Yeah. This article is savage:

Cersei Lannister Is Smarter Than All These Morons

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/cersei-lannister-is-smarter-than-all-these-morons-1834386681

 

But it's still the case that without Arya's moment, the AotD would have moved on to overwhelm Cercei's forces and extinguish the living and their memories forever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

The 'origins story' parts are my favourite bits of ASOIAF, so I'm hoping the series is good. Maybe D&D decided to save all the good Long Night stuff for the next series and just abandon the whole point in GoT. I dunno, it was ridiculous, but it doesn't mean the new show has to be too, right? :-(

Not holding my breath but it will be interesting to see what happens.  Is D&D handling as well?  If so, you have less material to go off of and when they want to detour when materiel does exist, they can always state it was simply "legend".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that it will be different but I think it would have to include some magical solution that can defeat all the wights at the same time, or at least weaken them, so they can be pushed back north. Like the poster above said, by the time they reach the Trident they will be millions (?), and probably greatly outnumbering the living.

Personally I don't think they will go south of Winterfell.....but it doesn't mean the southerners won't be there to fight them. They have to be aware of this threat. Another thing though, maybe the Others' power will reach the south without them physically moving there. Maybe with winter coming south they will be able to remotely create wights from the dead, so the south will be fighting them too, but with the decisive battle being in the north. Who knows?

I do think it's weird how we don't know anything about the Others yet, 5 books in. The pacing of this series is off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Saturno said:

Yes, we will have Winds as it is on the final stage of production but I really doubt we'll get the last book written by Martin's hand.

I don't really believe we'll get WoW either, to be honest. It's been close to ready for over three years now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, #teamNightking said:

I agree. And to be honest AFFC was a drop off and Dance was even worse. The books were trending down. 

It's possible GRRM has no idea how to tie it all up and stick the landing and maybe doesn't even really care anymore. 

And there are many questions that might not ever be answered. 

I enjoyed the books. But the 70 year old author is taking 10 years between books. 

Odds are not good we see the end written. 

Did Feast and Dance (especially Dance) waste a lot of time? Yes

Did the enormous climaxes in Clash and Storm spoil us and set us up to be disappointed by the smaller climax in Feast and the non-climax in Dance? Yes

Were there passages and even entire chapters **coughTyrioncough** that should have been combined, edited or just cut in half? Yes

But they were still good books.

Theon's chapters in Dance are some of GRRM's best work...ever. Cersei's chapters in Feast are black comedy at its finest...a train wreck so horrific but so entertaining that you can't look away. We had some really exciting new developments in both books.

GRRM made the mistake of dividing the characters into two different books and not really finishing any of the books (i.e. why are there Cersei and Jaime chapters in Dance, why does Bran's story end right in the middle, etc.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The books ended when Varys killed Kevan and Pycelle. At this rate, I'm not sure which ending will be worse- that or whatever D and D have got planned.  I don't get the impression Martin is anywhere close to finishing WOW after 8 years or that he has any real interest in doing so.  It's a pity he wasn't more involved with the TV show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Did Feast and Dance (especially Dance) waste a lot of time? Yes

Did the enormous climaxes in Clash and Storm spoil us and set us up to be disappointed by the smaller climax in Feast and the non-climax in Dance? Yes

Were there passages and even entire chapters **coughTyrioncough** that should have been combined, edited or just cut in half? Yes

But they were still good books.

Theon's chapters in Dance are some of GRRM's best work...ever. Cersei's chapters in Feast are black comedy at its finest...a train wreck so horrific but so entertaining that you can't look away. We had some really exciting new developments in both books.

GRRM made the mistake of dividing the characters into two different books and not really finishing any of the books (i.e. why are there Cersei and Jaime chapters in Dance, why does Bran's story end right in the middle, etc.).

Though certainly lacking in battles and action, I think AFFC and ADWD were his best-written books with some amazing moments and quotes. Doran's "Fire and Blood" speech was an excellent piece of writing. I also love the moment with the Widow: She touched the faded scar upon her cheek where her tears had been cut away. "Tell her we are waiting, tell her to come soon."

Chills, man, chills. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Amaretto said:

The books ended when Varys killed Kevan and Pycelle. At this rate, I'm not sure which ending will be worse- that or whatever D and D have got planned.  I don't get the impression Martin is anywhere close to finishing WOW after 8 years or that he has any real interest in doing so.  It's a pity he wasn't more involved with the TV show.

He recently posted that the first draft was done, all chapters ready, so in theory now is just a question of editing, revising, correting some staff if needed and then publishing. 

Edited by Saturno

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In addition, I think the TV series diverging from the LOTR tropey business of the forces of "altruistically good vs. abhorrent and motiveless evil" is a great idea.

it's possible that they have conferred with Martin and decided that this is a human story, full of human conflict and problems. I think humans at war with themselves is infinitely more compelling than "good" at war with "evil."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Yeah. This article is savage:

Cersei Lannister Is Smarter Than All These Morons

https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/cersei-lannister-is-smarter-than-all-these-morons-1834386681

 

But it's still the case that without Arya's moment, the AotD would have moved on to overwhelm Cercei's forces and extinguish the living and their memories forever.

I still think Sansa is going to show her a perfected version of her own medicine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Urien the Ragged said:

In addition, I think the TV series diverging from the LOTR tropey business of the forces of "altruistically good vs. abhorrent and motiveless evil" is a great idea.

it's possible that they have conferred with Martin and decided that this is a human story, full of human conflict and problems. I think humans at war with themselves is infinitely more compelling than "good" at war with "evil."

But this is exactly what they defaulted to, the Night King was given no back story, no motives, no goals, we don't know, aside from a single cryptic line about 'erasing memory', what he wanted, why he was coming, why now, what the designs were for...we know nothing.  He was evil and had to be stopped.  The end.  It doesn't get any more bare bones good v. evil than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

But this is exactly what they defaulted to, the Night King was given no back story, no motives, no goals, we don't know, aside from a single cryptic line about 'erasing memory', what he wanted, why he was coming, why now, what the designs were for...we know nothing.  He was evil and had to be stopped.  The end.  It doesn't get any more bare bones good v. evil than that.

true, but that doesn't seem to be about what the end struggle will be. They used the NK as a device to get there. And yeah, it was disappointing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Urien the Ragged said:

true, but that doesn't seem to be about what the end struggle will be. They used the NK as a device to get there. And yeah, it was disappointing.

If the show decided not to include the major of theme of how petty human squabbles miss the big picture, why bother to include the WW at all?  It could have been a show just about the game of thrones, Jon could have been kept busy with Ramsay another couple of season, let Stannis live another year, that would have been much  easier than trying to include the supernatural element of the WW.  It would have just been The Tudors plus a little bit of magic on the side, no big deal.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×