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The books are not going to end like this

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9 hours ago, Saturno said:

He recently posted that the first draft was done, all chapters ready, so in theory now is just a question of editing, revising, correting some staff if needed and then publishing. 

Where did he post it??? I've been reading his "not a blog" and watching/reading all inteviews, but the only time he specifically talked about tWoW's progression, as far as I know, he just said that the writing is going very well lately. But of course I'd LOVE to be wrong! Could you please post a link to the post you mention?

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Is it also possible that D&D decided to ignore several story lines from the novels because they were dead ends. I mean with some of them like Quentyn it's rather obvious as the character is only present in ADWD.

Perhaps the Young Griff/Aegon story was written as a red herring to try and throw readers off from the Jon = Lyanna + Rhaegar theory. Since ADWD came out in 2011 Martin probably assumed he'd be done with the next one long before the show caught up with the books. Since that was evidently not the case, he told D&D about his plans and they decided to cut this one out to avoid incurring unnecessary costs, since the outcome would eventually lead to Jon being the real Aegon and the other exposed as a charlatan. 

I'm really curious about Lady Stoneheart though, since that one was never even written for the show. Could it be a case of Tom Bombadil? Ignored for the sake of simplicity as that arc can easily be collapsed without affecting the larger plot.

My take and I could very well be off the mark (I've not followed any ASOIAF related news for a while), so if any information has come to the forefront let me know; is that the books are playing the long game (as in taking a longer route), but will end up in the same place. 

Edited by House Balstroko

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2 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

Is it also possible that D&D decided to ignore several story lines from the novels because they were dead ends. I mean with some of them like Quentyn it's rather obvious as the character is only present in ADWD.

Perhaps the Young Griff/Aegon story was written as a red herring to try and throw readers off from the Jon = Lyanna + Rhaegar theory. Since ADWD came out in 2011 Martin probably assumed he'd be done with the next one long before the show caught up with the books. Since that was evidently not the case, he told D&D about his plans and they decided to cut this one out to avoid incurring unnecessary costs, since the outcome would eventually lead to Jon being the real Aegon and the other exposed as a charlatan. 

I'm really curious about Lady Stoneheart though, since that one was never even written for the show. Could it be a case of Tom Bombadil? Ignored for the sake of simplicity as that arc can easily be collapsed without affecting the larger plot.

My take and I could very well be off the mark (I've not followed any ASOIAF related news for a while), so if any information has come to the forefront let me know; is that the books are playing the long game (as in taking a longer route), but will end up in the same place. 

Quentyn Martell is not a dead-end. He's basically a lesser version of Ned Stark...because when his family finds out, they are not want to have anything to do with Daenerys. At all.

You know, at one point, I would have agreed with you about Young Griff/Aegon. But after watching this season of GoT and the one before it, it is clear that Aegon is a definite and necessary part of the endgame. And actually...we don't know if Aegon is a charlatan or not. Young Griff could be exactly who he says he is (the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell) and still not be the true heir to the Iron Throne. Aegon could also be a bastard son of Rhaegar/Aerys/Rhaella or he could be a Blackfyre. Neither of those choices make him a charlatan because both scenarios would mean that he has Targaryen blood and, thus, a solid claim.

Plus, as Daenerys and many others are so quick to point out, the dragon of House Targaryen has three heads. The three being Daenerys, Aegon and whoever Jon really is.

I think they just made Jon a composite character for the sake of "simplicity." In any case, according to GRRM, we won't find out what Aegon really is and what exactly Varys is doing until the last book.

But yeah, I think Aegon/Young Griff is absolutely important. If not, why bring up the Golden Company at all? A war between Aegon and Daenerys with Tyrion in the middle makes more sense and has higher stakes than a war between Cersei and Daenerys with Tyrion sandwiched in between.

The inclusion of Young Griff/Aegon deepens and enriches the involvement of the Dornish in the story. Which is important because leaving Dorne out at this stage of the game is a HUGE plot hole.

The problem with Lady Stoneheart is that excluding her butchered the character arcs of Brienne and Jaime and weakened that of Arya's. Even characters as minor as Thoros of Myr suffer from not having Lady Stoneheart around. GRRM said that she would play a very big role in The Winds of Winter. What about the last one? Can you think of what it would be like if Littlefinger and/or Roose Bolton came face-to-face with Lady Stoneheart. 

The books are unlikely to end up in the same place because of these things. And that's only talking about these things. We haven't even touched characters like Sansa, Bran and Samwell who are in completely different places doing completely different things with completely different people.

Like, for example, Bran might become a detached robot in the end but he is nowhere near that point yet. There's still a lot of stuff that needs to be resolved in Bran's deeply personal character arc before he becomes a emotionless demigod.

Basically, I think D&D only adapted storylines and plots that they liked or understood. Which apparently isn't much.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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1 hour ago, House Balstroko said:

 

Perhaps the Young Griff/Aegon story was written as a red herring to try and throw readers off from the Jon = Lyanna + Rhaegar theory. Since ADWD came out in 2011 Martin probably assumed he'd be done with the next one long before the show caught up with the books. Since that was evidently not the case, he told D&D about his plans and they decided to cut this one out to avoid incurring unnecessary costs, since the outcome would eventually lead to Jon being the real Aegon and the other exposed as a charlatan. 

 

IMO The overall story structure is probably different.  On the TV show the throne is the final objective and Cersei is the final enemy, while the books seem more likely to have the iron throne as a stepping stone.  All the game playing and politics need to be cut through in order to unite Westeros for the final, real, battle against the Others.  If the objective is to unite Westeros it needs to still be divided with multiple forces still actively competing for the throne.  Griff, Littlefinger, Dorn, maybe even Stannis represent the competing forces the heroes need to overcome before they can march off to the real fight.  They are not needed if the Others are stepping stone and defeating Cersei is the final act.

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11 minutes ago, lomiller said:

IMO The overall story structure is probably different.  On the TV show the throne is the final objective and Cersei is the final enemy, while the books seem more likely to have the iron throne as a stepping stone.  All the game playing and politics need to be cut through in order to unite Westeros for the final, real, battle against the Others.  If the objective is to unite Westeros it needs to still be divided with multiple forces still actively competing for the throne.  Griff, Littlefinger, Dorn, maybe even Stannis represent the competing forces the heroes need to overcome before they can march off to the real fight.  They are not needed if the Others are stepping stone and defeating Cersei is the final act.

That's a possibility. It could also amount to ASOIAF trying to subvert the fantasy trope of the ancient big bad by having the final confrontation fall back to the very "game of thrones" that started it all. That way, the series  comes full circle. All along, we've been told how the Others were the real threat, but ultimately it's the fight for the Iron Throne that's at the heart of it. The Others therefore end up being a simple distraction (that needs to be taken care of) along the way) to human greed and ambition.

In a way, that does somewhat make it less climatic, but that could very well be what the author had in mind all along.

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20 minutes ago, lomiller said:

IMO The overall story structure is probably different.  On the TV show the throne is the final objective and Cersei is the final enemy, while the books seem more likely to have the iron throne as a stepping stone.  All the game playing and politics need to be cut through in order to unite Westeros for the final, real, battle against the Others.  If the objective is to unite Westeros it needs to still be divided with multiple forces still actively competing for the throne.  Griff, Littlefinger, Dorn, maybe even Stannis represent the competing forces the heroes need to overcome before they can march off to the real fight.  They are not needed if the Others are stepping stone and defeating Cersei is the final act.

I hope and believe you are correct. Just look at the butchered title of this episode: 'The Long Night' which turns out to be no longer than a normal night. The titles of the upcoming books bear no relevance to a throne, but do imply a focus on a "winter", presumably dark and long, and its aftermath, also a time period, not a place or single event.

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25 minutes ago, lomiller said:

IMO The overall story structure is probably different.  On the TV show the throne is the final objective and Cersei is the final enemy, while the books seem more likely to have the iron throne as a stepping stone.  All the game playing and politics need to be cut through in order to unite Westeros for the final, real, battle against the Others.  If the objective is to unite Westeros it needs to still be divided with multiple forces still actively competing for the throne.  Griff, Littlefinger, Dorn, maybe even Stannis represent the competing forces the heroes need to overcome before they can march off to the real fight.  They are not needed if the Others are stepping stone and defeating Cersei is the final act.

Cersei being the final enemy does not work.

Euron, however, being the final enemy does work.

So I can see the books treating the Iron Throne as the final objective. Not because the heroes (i.e. Jon, Dany and friends.) care about honor, power and status but because they themselves are in terrible danger. On top of that, they have also already done way too much to save the world.....how can they sit back and watch said world be destroyed by an evil megalomaniac. A megalomaniac who not only is a legit practitioner of blood magic but who also has the only/strongest navy in the world and has fresh army.

We'll see how it plays out but it would not hurt at all if there were good people in King's Landing who were terrorized and butchered by Euron and/or Cersei that deserved to be avenged.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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11 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Euron, however, being the final enemy does work.

In terms of the book plot, that makes sense. However, would GRRM allow the show to reduce him to a horny comedy pirate if he was that important?

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11 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

In terms of the book plot, that makes sense. However, would GRRM allow the show to reduce him to a horny comedy pirate if he was that important?

What GRRM allows is a non-factor at this point.

He hasn't been involved with the show since season 4 and has made a concentrated effort to distance himself from the show when the ever-so controversial season 5 came out. He went dark for a while and has only recently  started to chime in on things and be present again. Why? Because GoT is on its last season and The Winds of Winter is probably going to come out late this year.

GRRM had a big meeting with D&D six years ago where he gave them more information about the endgame. Six years ago would have been around the time the third season was being made.

The fact that they bothered to include Euron at all is a wonder.

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1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Quentyn Martell is not a dead-end. He's basically a lesser version of Ned Stark...because when his family finds out, they are not want to have anything to do with Daenerys. At all.

You know, at one point, I would have agreed with you about Young Griff/Aegon. But after watching this season of GoT and the one before it, it is clear that Aegon is a definite and necessary part of the endgame. And actually...we don't know if Aegon is a charlatan or not. Young Griff could be exactly who he says he is (the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell) and still not be the true heir to the Iron Throne. Aegon could also be a bastard son of Rhaegar/Aerys/Rhaella or he could be a Blackfyre. Neither of those choices make him a charlatan because both scenarios would mean that he has Targaryen blood and, thus, a solid claim.

Plus, as Daenerys and many others are so quick to point out, the dragon of House Targaryen has three heads. The three being Daenerys, Aegon and whoever Jon really is.

I think they just made Jon a composite character for the sake of "simplicity." In any case, according to GRRM, we won't find out what Aegon really is and what exactly Varys is doing until the last book.

But yeah, I think Aegon/Young Griff is absolutely important. If not, why bring up the Golden Company at all? A war between Aegon and Daenerys with Tyrion in the middle makes more sense and has higher stakes than a war between Cersei and Daenerys with Tyrion sandwiched in between.

The inclusion of Young Griff/Aegon deepens and enriches the involvement of the Dornish in the story. Which is important because leaving Dorne out at this stage of the game is a HUGE plot hole.

The problem with Lady Stoneheart is that excluding her butchered the character arcs of Brienne and Jaime and weakened that of Arya's. Even characters as minor as Thoros of Myr suffer from not having Lady Stoneheart around. GRRM said that she would play a very big role in The Winds of Winter. What about the last one? Can you think of what it would be like if Littlefinger and/or Roose Bolton came face-to-face with Lady Stoneheart. 

The books are unlikely to end up in the same place because of these things. And that's only talking about these things. We haven't even touched characters like Sansa, Bran and Samwell who are in completely different places doing completely different things with completely different people.

Like, for example, Bran might become a detached robot in the end but he is nowhere near that point yet. There's still a lot of stuff that needs to be resolved in Bran's deeply personal character arc before he becomes a emotionless demigod.

Basically, I think D&D only adapted storylines and plots that they liked or understood. Which apparently isn't much.

What truly makes this difficult, is that the situation is unprecedented (to my knowledge), in that the adaptation is closing the chapter before the source is complete. With LOTR and Harry Potter, the series were already finished by the time the ultimate film had come out, therefore all the material was readily available. Both adaptations changed a good number of things from their respective books, but still ultimately gave us the same conclusion (the Scouring of the Shire being an exception) for all the major character/story arcs. 

Where this leaves ASOIAF with respect to GOT is anyone's guess at this point. The obvious thing to mention as well would be that this series is far more complex than the two aforementioned so there are far more things at play.

To go over some of the points you addressed:

I agree with you that the inclusion of Griff/Aegon works in tandem with the Dornish story line. Plus, there's also the fact that in the books Varys seems to be supporting Aegon. He's still in KL rather than venturing off with Tyrion to meet up with Dany. 

What I'm interested in, is how this will impact Jon's story down the road. Is this "Aegon" going to be a pretender or someone with real Targaryen blood in them. That Dany is not the last one is something that is all too obvious. Will the books give us three of them, instead of the two from the show?

Ditto for Lady Stoneheart and her role at large. Her absence completely changed Jaime's journey and simplified Brienne's. 

To be fair, the show also took Bran, Sansa and Sam to the same locales, while omitting Sam's venture to Braavos (this is what I meant by collapsible plot). It's just that the show has simplified their adventures there for the sake of moving the story forward. That's probably why Dany and Tyrion already became acquainted with one another before she ended up as captive of the Dothraki so that when she escapes, forward momentum can be maintained. The books will have to establish that relationship in order to progress the plot. 

As to your last comment, regarding what D&D chose to adapt, that's what peaks my interest. Did they simply omit things that were left unclear in the books or did they have prior knowledge regarding what was essential to the story and what could be cut? That the show is simplified is a given. 

I would be disappointed if the endings were drastically different. I can appreciate variances in the journey, but the conclusion should still be in harmony with one another. 

 

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27 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

What truly makes this difficult, is that the situation is unprecedented (to my knowledge), in that the adaptation is closing the chapter before the source is complete. With LOTR and Harry Potter, the series were already finished by the time the ultimate film had come out, therefore all the material was readily available. Both adaptations changed a good number of things from their respective books, but still ultimately gave us the same conclusion (the Scouring of the Shire being an exception) for all the major character/story arcs. 

Where this leaves ASOIAF with respect to GOT is anyone's guess at this point. The obvious thing to mention as well would be that this series is far more complex than the two aforementioned so there are far more things at play.

1

That's a good point. I wonder if anyone can pull out an article that has covered this. The nearest example I can think of off the top of my head is A Handmaid's Tale, but Attwood sequel coming out later this year is not based on events subsequent to the original book, like the TV show's season 2.

Is JK Rowling still writing that Something Creatures series that's had 2 movies?

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40 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

That's a good point. I wonder if anyone can pull out an article that has covered this. The nearest example I can think of off the top of my head is A Handmaid's Tale, but Attwood sequel coming out later this year is not based on events subsequent to the original book, like the TV show's season 2.

Is JK Rowling still writing that Something Creatures series that's had 2 movies?

It's quite common in Japanese manga, and their anime counterparts. Full Metal Alchemist, Berserk, Dragon Ball, etc. The list is endless for shows that overtook the source material, and either took a long  hiatus, or adapted the ending into something wholly original

Edited by Blaer Dayle
Grammar error

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We know when the conference back then were and George has referenced said conference again quite recently. There is no reason to believe he talked the story with them at a later point in time

In the whole 60 Minute interview he mentioned that they are in contact on regular basis though, also to discuss further developements. Also keep in mind, that three years ago, is exactly the time, where GRRM admited, he is not gonna finish Winds, before the show. I might think, that the showrunners had a talk with him after that for sure. Also, and that will be our "Schrödingers Katze", the showrunners said in Entertainment Weekly, that they have decided, to not tell anymore what GRRM has told them and what is their own invention. So, we have to wait for the final installment. But, all of this is speculation. 

Edited by T and A

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4 hours ago, T and A said:

In the whole 60 Minute interview he mentioned that they are in contact on regular basis though, also to discuss further developements. Also keep in mind, that three years ago, is exactly the time, where GRRM admited, he is not gonna finish Winds, before the show. I might think, that the showrunners had a talk with him after that for sure. Also, and that will be our "Schrödingers Katze", the showrunners said in Entertainment Weekly, that they have decided, to not tell anymore what GRRM has told them and what is their own invention. So, we have to wait for the final installment. But, all of this is speculation. 

I'm sure George and these guys are still in contact on a business level. They are attached to the same project, after all. But I'd be very surprised if he were very inclined to tell them more stuff considering how they butchered his story despite the fact that he gave them some sort of outline. Vice versa, I don't think those guys would care much about George's input at that point.

And they all are attached in various ways to the spin-off projects.

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18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And they all are attached in various ways to the spin-off projects.

George and HBO are, Benioff and Weiss are not involved in the (maybe) upcomming prequel.

But, sure, as I pointed out, this is just speculation from my part. And we can only speculate. None of the involved parties are going to tell us, what is being discussed with each other and what is a spoiler and what is not. That makes it quite interesting for me, at least. Or, as George said it by himself, in his last interview, let the fans have their fight on the internet. 

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17 minutes ago, T and A said:

George and HBO are, Benioff and Weiss are not involved in the (maybe) upcomming prequel.

But, sure, as I pointed out, this is just speculation from my part. And we can only speculate. None of the involved parties are going to tell us, what is being discussed with each other and what is a spoiler and what is not. That makes it quite interesting for me, at least. Or, as George said it by himself, in his last interview, let the fans have their fight on the internet. 

Do you think that after last ep it makes sense to make a series about the previous long night?

The episode destroyed all the questions and interest people had build up for years about the others. People won t be open about the story about the others after all their theories and speculations were crushed without giving them any answers… It would be a bad joke...

So you spent 7 years building the ww story and making me interested just so you end it all wihtout giving any answers and making them a minor threat… And now you want to do it all over again and expect me to care about it?

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On 4/30/2019 at 10:41 AM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Which means the Azor Ahai stuff doesn't matter much. If it was plot integral they would have been told and stuck with it

As I've said elsewhere, I don't think fulfillment of the prophecy matters.   It's how people who believe in the prophecy act, and the consequences of those actions, which is what it's all about.    Hence the fact the Jon didn't singled-handedly defeat the NK - as the show might be said to have been seen to be leading up to - isn't a cop out, quite the opposite.

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26 minutes ago, divica said:

Do you think that after last ep it makes sense to make a series about the previous long night?

The episode destroyed all the questions and interest people had build up for years about the others. People won t be open about the story about the others after all their theories and speculations were crushed without giving them any answers… It would be a bad joke...

So you spent 7 years building the ww story and making me interested just so you end it all wihtout giving any answers and making them a minor threat… And now you want to do it all over again and expect me to care about it?

I don't expect from HBO to care about you at all. But I watched the last episode in a big bar with at least 30 people, and they had a great time with the episode and cheared at the end of the episode, when Arya made the blow (I didn't btw). I know a lot of these guys, and only me and two friends of mine have read the books in that bar. Then we discused the end of the WW with those viewers. The reaction of all of them was: thank god, this plot is over, now we can go back what is important and what makes this show great: politics and wars among humans. Starks vs. Lannisters, Daenerys Vs. Cersei. That is all HBO cares about too, I guess. Viewers. Because they are a TV Chanel, not Audible. This is also not my personal opinion, but HBO does not care about my opinion either.  Also, the Long Night will probably go the same way GoT went: with characters and politics infront, whith the fantasy element in the background only rarely showing up. Will it have the same succes as GoT: probably not. 

Edited by T and A

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Agree the books will be totally different. Why? money and time. Why would GRRM waste his time, and finish the books if the readers already know the results? I know i wont read the rest of the books if it aligns with the series.

Also he wont release W.o.W. until this fall i bet. Whats the best time to release the books? After the last episode ends. And now readers will want to know what really happened, compared to what we saw.

 

HBO is about money entertainment trumps long stretched out drama. So im not surprised how the show is playing out. The surprises, betrayals, and Oh Sheeet moments is what the fans want.

Edited by Charlie Hustle

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1 hour ago, T and A said:

George and HBO are, Benioff and Weiss are not involved in the (maybe) upcomming prequel.

But, sure, as I pointed out, this is just speculation from my part. And we can only speculate. None of the involved parties are going to tell us, what is being discussed with each other and what is a spoiler and what is not. That makes it quite interesting for me, at least. Or, as George said it by himself, in his last interview, let the fans have their fight on the internet. 

I think they will get Executive Producer Credits, but have minimal involvement.

They are going to work for Disney (Lucasfilm)

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