Dany is army-less, isn't she?

[King Perkis]

On 4/30/2019 at 6:22 PM, Forlong the Fat said:

They completely saved the north in BoB. They came down when they didn't have to and won the battle.

Eh.  That was more LF's doing to please Sansa than the Vale doing so to save the North.

[Gianna Dorenberg]

2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Alright, I'll bite.

Jon & Daenerys (including their dragons) killed the most wights between them by far (breathing fire on-screen way more than five times), fought the NK on Viserion and ultimately knocked him off, causing him to walk towards Bran and be at ground level where Arya could kill him. Remove them and the NK would've swooped in on Viserion and killed Bran and everyone would've died.
Did they single-handedly win the battle for the living? Absolutely not, but their contribution was important, just as Aryas and Theons where. 

Him raising more dead ultimately made no change in the outcome of the battle. 

If you take a step back and really look at it from a different POV, I would argue that Jon and Dany did more harm than good. 

So Dany and Jon, killed a few thousand wights with their dragons, at most. And Dany knocked down the NK. IN RETURN, The NK raised the dead, (which wouldn't have happened if our Targaryen duo hadn't interfered) which are FAR, FAR more than the amount Jon and Dany burned with their dragons, WAY more. Which made life even more difficult for the living. Based on the NK's interaction with Bran, he had no intention of burning Bran from above. He was about to use his sword. So without Dany and Jon the NK would've landed and did the same he was about to do right before Arya did her superhero thing. It's debatable and that alone is telling.

Besides, we saw our main heroes surrounded by thousands of wights for god knows how long and came out all dandy. A few thousand more wouldn't have made things more difficult cause apparently our main heroes can withstand an onslaught of thousands and thousands of wights.

[House Cambodia]

^ To be fair, raising the dead is kind of the NK's party trick. He did it at Hardhome without dragon interference, so I think we can assume he'd have raised the dead of Winterfell regardless.

[longest night]

I really wish the writers would have wrote really good strategies to defeat the dead, actually have Winterfell winning. That would have forced the white walkers to move to the forefront to stop the massacre of their forces, and then we could have had a lot of the major characters fight off with them with some actual deaths.

The whole battle could culminate with them slowly losing and being overwhelmed since the walkers would put out the fires stopping the dead, and then the Night King flanking them with the major force of his army from the opposite direct, crushing everything in its path. That would then cause all the survivors to flee through the crypts.

The other option is if they wanted to finish it then and there, would be let some of the heroes and Jon face a group of the white walkers and the Night King. The generals falling and the heroes falling, one of them Arya. It is then Jon against the Night King, and the Night King is clearly better, and up from behind comes Arya, stabbing the NK in the neck with her dagger, allowing Jon to recover and finish the Night King with a blow.

Yes, a sort of mirror of the Tower of Joy battle.

[MinscS2]

1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

I doubt that this would happen. I think that the NK would try to slay Bran in person (aka by sword) either way. I don't really have anything to support this but Bran was the only one that the NK bothered to try to kill while not directly attacked by the person (Theon). Notice how he left Jon to die, how he didn't are about Dany. Bran was apparently the only one he was interested in so killing him from afar using a dragon is imo not that probable.

And how would killing Bran automatically result into everyone else dying?

Well, not so much everyone dies because Bran dies, but everyone dies because Arya isn't there to kill him in the nick of time. 
Which she wouldn't have been if WF had been swamped in 20 seconds, which is what would've happened without the collective army (thanks to Jon) and the Unsullied (Daenerys).

 

Quote

it didn't change the outcome of the battle but it probably (we haven't seen it but it is the only logical conclusion) caused much more casualties in the battle = smaller army for Dany / Jon for the future. This is pure speculation but it is possible that if the NK didn't raise the bodies, Jorah could survive.

 

37 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

If you take a step back and really look at it from a different POV, I would argue that Jon and Dany did more harm than good. 

So Dany and Jon, killed a few thousand wights with their dragons, at most. And Dany knocked down the NK. IN RETURN, The NK raised the dead, (which wouldn't have happened if our Targaryen duo hadn't interfered) which are FAR, FAR more than the amount Jon and Dany burned with their dragons, WAY more. Which made life even more difficult for the living. Based on the NK's interaction with Bran, he had no intention of burning Bran from above. He was about to use his sword. So without Dany and Jon the NK would've landed and did the same he was about to do right before Arya did her superhero thing. It's debatable and that alone is telling.

Besides, we saw our main heroes surrounded by thousands of wights for god knows how long and came out all dandy. A few thousand more wouldn't have made things more difficult cause apparently our main heroes can withstand an onslaught of thousands and thousands of wights.

This is all (as Nerevanin points out) pure speculation.
We don't ever see any of the newly raised wights kill anyone, at least no one of importance (and how much of the army was there left to begin with?).

And again, without the collective armies of the living there (primarily thanks to Jon and Daenerys), WF would've been swamped in an instant and Arya would've died on the battlements or in the keep before being able to do the deed. It's not the amount of wights that Jon and Daenerys killed that's important here.

As for what the NK would've done if he was still on Viserion we can only speculate on.
Maybe he would've arrived at the Godswood much earlier because he could fly instead of slowly walking, meaning that Arya wouldn't had been able to kill him in time (if the NK kills Bran he can focus on eliminating the rest, including Arya). 
Remember that we're discussing a situation where mere seconds matter. Even Jon distracting the NK for a few split seconds while he raised new wights, could've been enough to cause Arya to arrive too late. 

With all this in mind, I can only shake my head at your comment about Jon and Daenerys doing more harm than good...

[Ser Loras The Gay]

16 hours ago, snow is the man said:

If the north doesn't stand with her after that then they are a** holes.

But now that she is armyless why'd you rally for a powerless queen? The north now if Jon robs her dragon unknowgly (for being his new rider) has more power than she does, if she doesn't give what the northmen really wants, their independency, they should turn on her. It's the sensible thing to do.

 

[King Perkis]

1 hour ago, longest night said:

The other option is if they wanted to finish it then and there, would be let some of the heroes and Jon face a group of the white walkers and the Night King. The generals falling and the heroes falling, one of them Arya. It is then Jon against the Night King, and the Night King is clearly better, and up from behind comes Arya, stabbing the NK in the neck with her dagger, allowing Jon to recover and finish the Night King with a blow.

Yes, a sort of mirror of the Tower of Joy battle.

That was my thinking in terms of having someone besides Jon kill the NK.  But D&D obviously thought there plan was better.

[snow is the man]

5 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

I doubt that this would happen. I think that the NK would try to slay Bran in person (aka by sword) either way. I don't really have anything to support this but Bran was the only one that the NK bothered to try to kill while not directly attacked by the person (Theon). Notice how he left Jon to die, how he didn't are about Dany. Bran was apparently the only one he was interested in so killing him from afar using a dragon is imo not that probable.

And how would killing Bran automatically result into everyone else dying?

it didn't change the outcome of the battle but it probably (we haven't seen it but it is the only logical conclusion) caused much more casualties in the battle = smaller army for Dany / Jon for the future. This is pure speculation but it is possible that if the NK didn't raise the bodies, Jorah could survive.

If the dragons hadn't come in when they did the armies would have been over run alot quicker. We saw that they almost fell apart right from the start. And to be fair DANY went against the plan and went and helped them rather then sit and wait for the night king like jon was going to. Dany and her forces (which include both dragons since without her they wouldn't have had either) contributed by far more then the northman did. Rob got all the forces together he could back when he fought the lannisters. How much did they have back then fifteen thousand northman I think? Whether in the books or show he said that was half the northern forces they could muster. Dany had 90,000 dothraki alone and six thousand unsullied (factor in how many have died since she originally got them). Jon probably had fifteen thousand soldiers and a direwolf at most. And unlike jon and the northman she CHOSE to come there and fight with them rather then keep fighting cersei when she had cersei on the ropes. Dany both contributed the most to the fight and lost the most in the fight.

 

 

 

[snow is the man]

2 hours ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

But now that she is armyless why'd you rally for a powerless queen? The north now if Jon robs her dragon unknowgly (for being his new rider) has more power than she does, if she doesn't give what the northmen really wants, their independency, they should turn on her. It's the sensible thing to do.

 

Yeah because cersei is just gonna leave them alone if they sit back. They either join dany and have a queen who helped them out. Or join cersei who would kill all the starks and treat them all like scum. The real choice is either dany or cersei plain and simple. If cersei would actually give the northman their independence then yeah  you might have a point. But cersei will take the north if they don't join dany. And if john and dany marry then the north would have one of their own on the throne. So those are their options.

[Ser Loras The Gay]

1 hour ago, snow is the man said:

Or join cersei who would kill all the starks and treat them all like scum. The real choice is either dany or cersei plain and simple.

Cersei can't invade the north. Moat caitilin is still a thing. The only fasible way would be a invasion at white Harbor or from the Pyke, but even then. Dany is never going to give them indenpendency. The only way I could see the north being independent would be if Jon and Dany married.

[snow is the man]

29 minutes ago, Ser Loras The Gay said:

Cersei can't invade the north. Moat caitilin is still a thing. The only fasible way would be a invasion at white Harbor or from the Pyke, but even then. Dany is never going to give them indenpendency. The only way I could see the north being independent would be if Jon and Dany married.

Cersei can't invade by land. She could still invade by sea.  And I never said that dany would give them independence I said the choice would be between dany and cersei. If you think the north could stand against all the other kingdoms then your kidding yourself. Especially since  most of their fighting men are now dead. Between the war of five kings,the iron men,the battle of the bastards,and the war with the dead the north couldn't defeat  a pack of wolves much less an army.  If cersei defeats dany she will rule the rest of the kingdoms completly and will then take the north. So the north getting indepence is no longer a real option. It's cersei or dany.

[Tyrion1991]

On 4/30/2019 at 11:51 AM, Nerevanin said:

Inspired by another topic, let's discuss what army has Dany left now. She intends to defeat Cersei and take back "her" throne but it seems to me she doesn't really have an army anymore:

- Dothraki were massacred during the battle. Very few (let's be generous and say 100) survived, if any.

- the Unsullied were massacred too. Very few (once again, let's say 100) survived, if any. She has Grey Worm (although he promised Miss to leave together)

- Yara's loyalty is questionable as she didn't come to help Dany. Even if she was still loyal to her, she has only a few (let's say 1000 at most) men as Euron has basically all the warriors from Iron Islands.

- The Tyrells and Ellaria are dead and it doesn't seem like their armies were anywhere near Winterfell so Dany lost these armies too

- she has Drogon. At least, something, I guess. As for Rheagal, it's hard to say whether he'll stick with his mother, or with his rider (I'm leaning towards Jon)

- she has people like Tyrion, Varys and Missandei on her side but these have no real power

 

As for the rest of the (massacred) army that fought at Winterfell, The Vale supports Sansa, the North supports either Jon or Sansa or both (hard to say, as the lords weren't very keen on Jon bending his knee to Dany), wildlings and the Night's Watch (these are basically only Tormund now though) support Jon. Let's not forget that those armies were more or less massacred too, just like Dothraki and Unsullied, so even if Jon and Sansa decided to help Dany, the whole army is still quite tiny imo.

Is it just me, or Cersei has a much bigger army than Jon, Dany and Sansa combined?

 

Davos - “A Queen whose people despise her”

It requires a massive suspension of disbelief that the people of Kings Landing have not risen up and murdered Cersei at this point. 

I still do not understand why all the rest of the Lords of westeros support her. Really, nobody should be loyal to her.

If Cersei is the only opposition Dany realistically shouldn’t need an army to take Westeros. This should be the restoration of 1660. It has only been through the contrivance of the show that Cersei has not faced any internal opposition. That’s BEFORE Dany and Co saved the world whilst Cersei dined in the Red Keep.

[LadyBlackwater]

On 4/30/2019 at 6:59 AM, Squall said:

Howland Reed and his Crannogmen could join the party. But I think the show assumes they do not exist at all and it would be a relatively small force.

Perhaps she can call on the Tully leftover troops.

I have been waiting around for Howland Reed to show up! I hope he does!

[Nerevanin]

8 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I still do not understand why all the rest of the Lords of westeros support her. Really, nobody should be loyal to her.

It does seem like no one but Dany cares  about who sits on the Iron Throne at this point and at the same time it seems like Cersei doesn't care about holding the kindgom together, she just sits here. My only "explanation" is that while Cersei ain't the perfect ruler (as she blew up the sept), most of westerosi people still see her as the lesser evil compared to Dany, who 1) is aforeigner, 2) is a Targaeryen, 3) has two big beasts, 4) has an army of foreign barbars and fighters. As for "but Dany went to the North to fight the dead!!!!", I think that the majority of people think that it is just a myth and that there ain't no such thing as an army of dead.

That being said, it doesn't make sense that we never see the remaining westerosi lords who didn't join Dany. If they went to Cersei and said something like "we don't want this dragon girl", everything would be fine imo.

 

11 hours ago, snow is the man said:

If the dragons hadn't come in when they did the armies would have been over run alot quicker. We saw that they almost fell apart right from the start.

I don't agree because imo the dragons didn't kill enough wights to make a significant difference. They didn't stop the wights. IIRC, a big part of the Unsullied were massacred AFTER the dragons engaged in the fight. Yeah, the dragons killed let's say 15k of wights but that's not enough when the NK had an army of 100k+ (probably much more). If the dragons didn't get lost in the ice storm, I suppose that their contribution would be much bigger but still I'm not sure if it would make any difference.

[House Cambodia]

8 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If Cersei is the only opposition Dany realistically shouldn’t need an army to take Westeros. This should be the restoration of 1660. It has only been through the contrivance of the show that Cersei has not faced any internal opposition. That’s BEFORE Dany and Co saved the world whilst Cersei dined in the Red Keep.

As far as the (surviving) population of KL and the southlands are concerned, the rumour of the northern peril is just nonsense about snarks and grumpkins. The hoi polloi didn't see the wight. But they DID see Dany, daughter of the Mad King who tried to burn KL, fly in on a feckin' great dragon, one that burned a sizable population of Lannister soldiers.

Cercei hasn't really massively inconvenienced the smallfolk of the city; she's merely wiped out the aristocracy. I'd have thought the hoi polloi of KL would be relying on Cercei to protect them.

[Tyrion1991]

Didn’t the people of Kings Landing mock her during the Walk of Shame? Why do they suddenly like her? She blew up the cities cathedral and is a tyrant. 

How is the situation different to Mereen? You say that from their perspective she would look like a monster but not necessarily. Why wouldn’t they see her as Visenya reborn, the liberator of a whole continent and somebody who has divine favour by bringing dragons back into the world? Given that they should and did hate Cersei; it’s not reasonable that they would consider Cersei a lesser evil.

[Amaretto]

The show spent a lot of time establishing the fact that the High Sparrow and the Tyrells had the love and support of the people and hated Cersei. Until she murdered them and suddenly they now love her for some reason and jeer her enemies as they are marched through King's Landing.

 

[MinscS2]

Cersei still being on the throne after everything she's done, without being deposed and lynched by a mob of angry commoners is the biggest plothole in the show...

[Gianna Dorenberg]

2 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Cersei still being on the throne after everything she's done, without being deposed and lynched by a mob of angry commoners is the biggest plothole in the show...

Nah, I don't like Cersei and that entire arc BUT why would they try to do that and risk everything ? Cersei is a lunatic, willing to use wildfire to kill her own. Maybe Cersei gave command that if anything happened to her, the people behind the scenes will just light up KL and kill everyone. It's hard to blame the people for not rioting. I don't really consider that the biggest plothole in the show, not even close.

[MinscS2]

1 minute ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Nah, I don't like Cersei and that entire arc BUT why would they try to do that and risk everything ? 

They attacked Joffrey back in S2, on the mere grounds of being hungry.

Imagine what they would and should do to Cersei after everything she has done.
Hungry, desperate, poor folk are dangerous when roused, as The High Sparrow pointed out before he got blown to hell.

But apparently everyone down south seems to love her, and her reign seems quiet and peaceful, because we aren't told or shown otherwise.