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Han Snow

Conclusion of the tale - Cersei as the ultimate Villain - problems galore.

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Posted (edited)

I'll try to be short.

Shocking twists just for the sake of it being shocking twists are what the show is. There is no internal logic that guides the cause and effect of the events that happen. When the Red Wedding happens (in the books! less so in the show, but they were still faithful enough to the source material) it is because the set of events before it almost demand that the logical conclusion to the matter of Robb's war efforts end like that. There is no fracking internal logic or reason enough in the show when the "magnificent Seven" go hunting beyond the Wall for a wight. Logical stuff happening would have been Dany simply burning Cersei in the Red Keep, sending soldiers and messengers agitating for Dany among the smallfolk, Gold Cloaks and soldiers loyal to the bitch queen, parading dragons to them and simply causing a rebellion against Cersei. Even if the stupid hunt for the wight happens it would have been more effective if they paraded the wight through the streets of the King's Landing than just showing it to Cersei. Then the ordinary people, soldiers, nobility would have known that the threat of dead things is more than real!!! And would have turned on Cersei easily. That is how it should have happened, Cersei should have been dealt with long time ago, but she wasn't.

So now we have her as the last, ultimate Villain and I'm disgusted with this turn of the story. Where are the leaders of the other 5 kingdoms? How are they still loyal to Cersei? How is anyone loyal to Cersei? Euron is a slight caricature in the books, in the show he is nothing but a caricature and perceiving him a co-threat with Cersei doesn't work at all.

Instead of having the last stand of humanity against death be the culmination of the story, they chose Cersei... They ... chose ... Cersei! And they have done it without rhyme, reason or a shred of logic. George may do (or would have done it if he ever finished the damn books) the same, but surely there will be a clear reason why Cersei still has political, military or any kind of power remaining in the face of Army of the dead, or after it is dealt with.

There is also the problem of betraying its central character. Because the show chose to follow the books and it made Jon Snow the central character. You may not like him, care for him, you may ignore him, but facts are facts. They followed R+L, they bloody resurrected him, they made him the KITN and then... they dumbed him down so much that he became another caricature that danced around doing basically nothing. All for the pleasures of the casually viewing masses that pretend to pray at the altar of progressive cultural zeitgeist of the faux feminism that is happening in the western part of Earth's civilization at the moment. As I wrote above, there is subverting expectations, and there are shocking twists that happen without rhyme and reason. In the real world sometimes shocking twists do happen without any apparent cause, but when you are reading or watching a story unfold the only way that it will  stand against the test of time is if it's adhering to some kind of internal logic and consistency, from start to finish. That is why LOTR is still the template that all other works are measured against. Taking away any importance from Jon during the Battle for The Down abandons the entire point and premise that the story was building up before it. There will be people that will say he was instrumental in gathering the armies and yadda yadda yadda, and they are wrong. If Jon stayed dead, Dany would not have gone North, gave the Night King his dragon with which he smashed the Wall down. She would have probably burned Cersei at the spot in KL etc. Actually, if the show HAD NOT resurrected Jon the story would probably have been more interesting. The North a more desperate place and they could have still used the deus ex Arya moment of destroying the Knight King and saving the world. Everything would have made more sense. They way they did it was insulting to it's own story, to Jon as a character and to the actor that played him. And don't get me wrong, my personal fav character IS ARYA!!! But her Eowyn moment was not what the logic of the story demanded, it was not unearned, because Arya earned it with her life choices and training, but it was not right either. I'm guessing that they make Jon into some kind of Aragorn, a king of Westeros in the end, but it's not what this version of Jon Snow would ever actually want or ACCEPT, or what this dumb version of Jon Snow even earned in this story. But it's not like Dany, Sansa or anyone for that matter earned it in this story. It would be better if they just put Gendry with Arya as king and queen, that would pass as acceptable at this point.

Anyways, the story of A Song Of Ice And Fire was betrayed completely by the two hacks called D&D.

 

edit:

 

I was not short :P

Edited by Han Snow

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Oh dear. Yet another person whinging that the producers of the most successful television drama in history are incompetent hacks.

If you don't like the show: Shut up and stop watching.

It is becoming clear that GRRM introduced fake Arya and fake Aegon for very specific and important reasons. Those reasons will almost certainly have a large bearing on Jon's background story and the means by which the NK arc will be resolved.

I am pretty sure that those plot lines were dropped from the show because Jon is being disguised by a glamor which dropped revealing him as a true Targ prince. Which GRRM has done a lot of prep for in the books but would not work at all well on TV as the show would have to recast its central character.

I am also pretty sure that there is a lot more to killing the book NK and that he can only be killed with the lightbringer blade after it has been tempered by sacrificing someone. The books pretty much shout that out. Again, dropped from the show because the magic does not work half as well in TV. It comes across too much as Deus ex Machina.

As things stand, it looks like Danny is about to lose a dragon to Euron via dragonbinder and the horn of winter will be the cause of the wall falling. But things may very well change. Point is that it is clearly a very much more complex plot and GoT has already run as long as the leads were willing to work on it.

The show decided to do three episodes clearing up the NK plot line and three on the war of seven kings. That makes perfect sense as does having Jon having to lead the fight against the NK while Cersei is threatening. 

This is exactly how King Harold was defeated by my ancestors at Hastings. The Saxon king had to go up north and defeat Harold Hadrada first and fought Hastings with an army that was tired.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, hallam said:

 

If you don't like the show: Shut up and stop watching.

 

Wow, how rude. I see the noble blood in you feels the righteous need to tell people they can not criticize entertainment, art  or something else. Well, tough luck king hallam, I'll watch this stinking pile of manure because it is probably the only form of quasi resolution we'll get to this fictional setting and story and I'll certainly call out the crappy writing when I see it.

The show decided that it was a Michael Bay movie.

Edited by Han Snow

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The central character clearly is Cersei at this point. Everybody is talking and worrying about Cersei. Cersei is the super villain, the nonplus ultra, the smartest strategist in the world, the ruler of ... some kingdoms that still exist in this universe. 

Subplots like the threat to humanity need to me moved off the table quickly so we can all return to Cersei who is so fucking smart and dangerous and badass and clearly a more important enemy than a horde of walking dead. 

Dont fight it. Cersei is the centerpoint of of the entire story. 

 

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It is called A Game of Thrones.   Not The Return of the King.    So I am not disappointed to see we're not getting the generic fantasy story - about the rise of a hero who against all odds saves the world, the end - that GRRM has always made clear he is not writing.  

It's worth re-reading GRRM's Rolling Stone interview from 2014.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/

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34 minutes ago, hallam said:

Oh dear. Yet another person whinging that the producers of the most successful television drama in history are incompetent hacks.

If you don't like the show: Shut up and stop watching.

It is becoming clear that GRRM introduced fake Arya and fake Aegon for very specific and important reasons. Those reasons will almost certainly have a large bearing on Jon's background story and the means by which the NK arc will be resolved.

I am pretty sure that those plot lines were dropped from the show because Jon is being disguised by a glamor which dropped revealing him as a true Targ prince. Which GRRM has done a lot of prep for in the books but would not work at all well on TV as the show would have to recast its central character.

I am also pretty sure that there is a lot more to killing the book NK and that he can only be killed with the lightbringer blade after it has been tempered by sacrificing someone. The books pretty much shout that out. Again, dropped from the show because the magic does not work half as well in TV. It comes across too much as Deus ex Machina.

As things stand, it looks like Danny is about to lose a dragon to Euron via dragonbinder and the horn of winter will be the cause of the wall falling. But things may very well change. Point is that it is clearly a very much more complex plot and GoT has already run as long as the leads were willing to work on it.

The show decided to do three episodes clearing up the NK plot line and three on the war of seven kings. That makes perfect sense as does having Jon having to lead the fight against the NK while Cersei is threatening. 

This is exactly how King Harold was defeated by my ancestors at Hastings. The Saxon king had to go up north and defeat Harold Hadrada first and fought Hastings with an army that was tired.

He lost that by incompetent tactics though. They were actually winning, the Normans retreated and they broke their line to chase them down and left an opening in which the Normans were able to break their line and 'shoot Harold in the eye.' That probables makes sense after the tactics we saw on Sunday.

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4 minutes ago, Essan said:

It is called A Game of Thrones.   Not The Return of the King.    So I am not disappointed to see we're not getting the generic fantasy story - about the rise of a hero who against all odds saves the world, the end - that GRRM has always made clear he is not writing.  

It's worth re-reading GRRM's Rolling Stone interview from 2014.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/

He is writing a story about a a hero that saves the world and then has to make tax policies, aliances with other lords, deal with lack of food...

Nothing there implies that we won t have 3 people saving the world from the wights. Just that his story won t be " they saved the world and lived happily ever after"...

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If you put an end of the world scenario in it as a sub plot and build it for seven seasons whereby the enemy can resurrect the dead, break magical walls, turn human children in walkers, can read minds etc etc etc and then wipe him out and expect people not to feel anticlimactic when its revealed the final boss is a normal woman who has suffered endless defeats through the season then you probably should have made the inferior threat seem more superior for the full entire show.

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1 hour ago, Essan said:

It is called A Game of Thrones.   Not The Return of the King.    So I am not disappointed to see we're not getting the generic fantasy story - about the rise of a hero who against all odds saves the world, the end - that GRRM has always made clear he is not writing.  

It's worth re-reading GRRM's Rolling Stone interview from 2014.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/

haha LOTR, generic ? It still is the golden standard of fantasy. Even GRRM shares that thought.

Tolkien is still superior. And so is LOTR compared to GOT.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Essan said:

It is called A Game of Thrones.   Not The Return of the King.    So I am not disappointed to see we're not getting the generic fantasy story - about the rise of a hero who against all odds saves the world, the end - that GRRM has always made clear he is not writing.  

It's worth re-reading GRRM's Rolling Stone interview from 2014.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-242487/

The main protagonist is now a teenage ninja assassin, and the antagonist is a cheesy pirate. They are certainly subverting expectations.

Edited by longest night

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Posted (edited)

It's Game of Thrones, not Walking Dead after all.

And, even though I don't think Cersei deserved to be the final super villain, she had no importance in the WotFK, even Tyrion was more effective than her. It was Littlefinger who deceived and captured Ned, not Cersei. She usually didn't do anything other than making Robert more drunk than usual by having sex with her cousin Lancel and betraying Robert's legacy by having sex with her brother, creating incest born bastards, and indulging Joffrey and creating a terrible King who at the end didn't even listen her about Ned Stark, then not even mention getting captured by the ''High Sparrow'' and humiliated on the streets, she fails to protect all of her bastard children, who are all dead now. Yes, Tywin was right, he didn't trust her not because she is a woman, he didn't trust her because Cersei thinks she is smarter while she isn't. And her final solution was to get rid of the Tyrells and the High Sparrow by blowing up the Great Sept of Baelor after all, who would do that? Only a crazy person.

I think Cersei totally lost her mind due to after all the things that she has suffered. At the end, she didn't even care about Jaime when they were facing with zombies. And yes, she is a really huge threat for the realm like Aerys was, people miss that which is why they don't like her being the final villain. She is the final villain because she is crazy. As well as Euron, another crazy person like Aerys is know at her side. Qyburn even, you can consider him as crazy.

Competitive people like Tywin, Olenna or even Littlefinger, deserved more than Cersei to be the final villain, but as they deserved that, they were not crazy like Cersei and Euron are.

 

 

Edited by Erkan12

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7 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

It's Game of Thrones, not Walking Dead after all.

And, even though I don't think Cersei deserved to be the final super villain, she had no importance in the WotFK, even Tyrion was more effective than her. It was Littlefinger who deceived and captured Ned, not Cersei. She usually didn't do anything other than making Robert more drunk than usual by having sex with her cousin Lancel and betraying Robert's legacy by having sex with her brother, creating incest born bastards, and indulging Joffrey and creating a terrible King who at the end didn't even listen her about Ned Stark, then not even mention getting captured by the ''High Sparrow'' and humiliated on the streets, she fails to protect all of her bastard children, who are all dead now. Yes, Tywin was right, he didn't trust her not because she is a woman, he didn't trust her because Cersei thinks she is smarter while she isn't. And her final solution was to get rid of the Tyrells and the High Sparrow by blowing up the Great Sept of Baelor after all, who would do that? Only a crazy person.

I think Cersei totally lost her mind due to after all the things that she has suffered. At the end, she didn't even care about Jaime when they were facing with zombies. And yes, she is a really huge threat for the realm like Aerys was, people miss that which is why they don't like her being the final villain. She is the final villain because she is crazy. As well as Euron, another crazy person like Aerys is know at her side. Qyburn even, you can consider him as crazy.

Competitive people like Tywin, Olenna or even Littlefinger, deserved more than Cersei to be the final villain, but as they deserved that, they were not crazy like Cersei and Euron are.

 

 

The problem with Cersei is: who in the 7 kingdoms would accept her as queen? She is literally alone against all of westeros that hates her. 

Making someone like this the final villain just because she sits in the IT doesn t make sense. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, divica said:

The problem with Cersei is: who in the 7 kingdoms would accept her as queen? She is literally alone against all of westeros that hates her. 

Making someone like this the final villain just because she sits in the IT doesn t make sense. 

Yes, as I said, I don't like this choice as well, because Cersei isn't really a competitive person, if Littlefinger wasn't being a trickster that hates the Starks and if he had a shred of honor, her story was finished.

I also don't like the idea of keeping the IT after the Robert's Rebellion as well, why they didn't turn back to the old Westeros anyway, that chair for the Targaryens and Targaryens are gone, and Robert didn't want to be the king, Ned could easily declare himself as KitN and even sharing the Riverlands with Jon Arryn, Jon Arryn as KotV, Robert Baratheon as Storm King, Tywin as KotR, Balon already wanted to be the KotII, Princes of Dorne also would want to be separated from the IT after Robert's Rebellion, and the Tyrells would be the King of the Reach. There would be no problem at all.

Now not only that thousands of people died for that stupid chair, they are still fighting for it.

Jon should destroy the Iron Throne and they should turn back to the old Westeros as a conclusion of the story, but somehow I don't think they will.

Edited by Erkan12

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4 hours ago, hallam said:

If you don't like the show: Shut up and stop watching.

 

:lmao:

BUTTTTT No....I will hate watch the SHIT outta this series and nerd the fuck out at every awful plot turn and twist because.....:dunno:

WHO CARES?! IT'S TRASH!

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I didn't want the last three episodes to be about prying drunken Cersei from her chair any more than you did, but that's what's happening, and there's no point in throwing up angry walls of text about it. It's just a show, after all. I'll still be watching.

It might even be enjoyable.

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everyone seems to forget the Lord of the Rings didn't end with Sauron's death.  The arguably more important story was after that the hobbits returned home expecting to relax and chill and tell hobbit stories when instead they found out Treebeard let Sauramon go because he was tired of watching him and Sauraman returned to the Shire and trashed the place and enslaved all the hobbits.  So then they had to clean thier literal house out before the story ended.  Peter Jackson decided to nix that whole story and just had Sauraman die on his tower. 

So its kinda similar after all, hobbit Starks defeated Night King Sauron, now they have to go clean up the Shire Kings Landing?

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1 hour ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

I didn't want the last three episodes to be about prying drunken Cersei from her chair any more than you did, but that's what's happening, and there's no point in throwing up angry walls of text about it. It's just a show, after all. I'll still be watching.

It might even be enjoyable.

I can't allow myself to be happy but yes, I can't NOT watch...I've been a fan over 18 years, this maybe the closest thing I get to a completion so I am stuck....but I'll be damned if I have to like it :lmao:

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Bradam said:

everyone seems to forget the Lord of the Rings didn't end with Sauron's death.  The arguably more important story was after that the hobbits returned home expecting to relax and chill and tell hobbit stories when instead they found out Treebeard let Sauramon go because he was tired of watching him and Sauraman returned to the Shire and trashed the place and enslaved all the hobbits.  So then they had to clean thier literal house out before the story ended.  Peter Jackson decided to nix that whole story and just had Sauraman die on his tower. 

So its kinda similar after all, hobbit Starks defeated Night King Sauron, now they have to go clean up the Shire Kings Landing?

Eh, I don't think it will be that easy :D

First of all, Saruman lost almost all of his army after the Sauron's defeat, he had only 100 ruffians garbage at Shire, a place that almost no one cares about.

While Cersei has still Golden Company (20.000 men strong) + Euron's fleet (1.000 ships) + remaining Lannister forces (I am guessing that at least 2.000 men or more) and holding the Iron Throne and the city of King's Landing at this point after the Night King's defeat.

That LotR afterward story was so unimportant that Peter Jackson didn't even care to show it to the viewers.

While we still have 3 episodes left for Game of Thrones.

Edited by Erkan12

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8 hours ago, Han Snow said:

Instead of having the last stand of humanity against death be the culmination of the story, they chose Cersei... They ... chose ... Cersei!

Personally, I'd love to see a dragon just turn her into a kabob. She's not a military genius by any means; her greatest downfall began as soon as she lost her father (he was the mind to everything; him and Tyrion), and then it only dwindled from there. She has the throne and the Seven Kingdoms, this is the only reason why she's gotten so much military backing. But she's a not a good leader; she's a selfish dirtbag who allowed her last son to die just so she can keep the throne.  Someone, please get this useless piece of garbage out of there!

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6 hours ago, Han Snow said:

Wow, how rude. I see the noble blood in you feels the righteous need to tell people they can not criticize entertainment, art  or something else. Well, tough luck king hallam, I'll watch this stinking pile of manure because it is probably the only form of quasi resolution we'll get to this fictional setting and story and I'll certainly call out the crappy writing when I see it.

The show decided that it was a Michael Bay movie.

No, really, you should heed his advise. What kind of fool would watch something they don't like?

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