Is Tyrion going to die in this episode?

[Hippocras]

32 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

Jaimie hasn't evolved nearly enough cleverness... he was completely blindsided by Cersei promising to help with the AotD but not meaning it, probably more blindsided than anyone.  He'll also be blindsided by how she hired Bronn to kill him - he won't be expecting it at all, and it'll dramatically shift his perspective for the final battle. Jaimie doesn't work things out by himself... he always needs help.
(Tyrion on the other hand, I don't think ever had high expectations of Cersei and her promises... we never got to see the convo between them either... but I don't think she was the only one he was concerned about getting on board for the fight up north, he was playing ALL the sides to support Jon, ultimately, and the bigger picture of what matters most)

Sansa... agree, she has learned so very much... but the people whom have taught her the most, about how to survive and thrive, are dark characters... Cersei... Little Finger... Ramsay Bolton. Her education has been very damaging in many ways. She's come from a very selfish young girl, to a ruthless young woman who still puts her own personal interests ahead of all else. She's all about the Stark pack, the North... her cleverness is still very much structured around survival more than anything... not diplomacy and political machinations like Tyrion/Varys. She's doing a poor job of getting what she wants from Dany.

I am not sure she is doing a poor job actually. Jon bent the knee, but Sansa is busy making it clear to Dany that winning over the North is not just about winning over Jon. She is actually representing the perspective of her people, and by doing so she is helping Jon KEEP the North, who showed weak loyalty in the past, re the Boltons, but also to King Robb.

She may even be trying to push Dany to a diplomatic confrontation to provide a demonstration to those who matter to the North (her people) of how Dany would go about dealing with differences. This actually seems smart to me. If so, she knows she might pay for it, but if Dany burns her, Dany definitely will NOT keep the North. If Dany wants the North she needs to earn it by showing she has long term solutions for the previously tyrannical relationship with the South. 

[Figdoni]

5 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I am not sure she is doing a poor job actually. Jon bent the knee, but Sansa is busy making it clear to Dany that winning over the North is not just about winning over Jon. She is actually representing the perspective of her people, and by doing so she is helping Jon KEEP the North, who showed weak loyalty in the past, re the Boltons, but also to King Robb.

She may even be trying to push Dany to a diplomatic confrontation to provide a demonstration to those who matter to the North (her people) of how Dany would go about dealing with differences. This actually seems smart to me. If so, she knows she might pay for it, but if Dany burns her, Dany definitely will NOT keep the North. If Dany wants the North she needs to earn it by showing she has long term solutions for the previously tyrannical relationship with the South. 

She's certainly acting for Jon... but she hasn't convinced Dany of anything other than of how difficult she is, and will be. The snatching away of her hand told you that.
That's not diplomacy. It doesn't make friends, nor get people to do what you want... it just marks you out as being a potential problem

[MinscS2]

Sansa might be "intelligent", but there's absolutely nothing clever about Sansa's actions this season so far in regards to Daenerys. 
Sansa clearly has her own agenda. If she wants to have it fulfilled without violence, she needs to start manipulating people and make them see stuff her way, as "friends", not as enemies. For someone who's learned to play the game from the best players there is, she's doing a really poor job so far.

Daenerys, a person who hasn't played the game at all, see's right trough her fake smiles and instantly notices how she doesn't like her. 
Even when Daenerys approaches with an open mind and tries to make "peace" (of sorts), Sansa manages to screw up by pressing the issue at a bad moment, instead of slowly starting to manipulate her. What's the saying, "it's easier to catch bee's with honey than vinegar"?

Even Jon(!) considered Sansa to be a potential problem, and basically questioned her loyalties ("do you have any faith in me at all?"), something he never should've had to do in the first place after everything they've been trough, if she had played her cards right.
Heck, in the last episode, Missandei (of all people!) essentially tell her to shut up with her talk about divided loyalties. Way to smack-talk a person who is currently fighting tooth and nail to save you and your precious North...

Nah, if the writers want Sansa to come across as smart and clever, they've done a shit job.
If they want to make her come across as petty and jealous however, they've done an excellent job. 

TLDR: Sansa want's northern independence.
If she was clever she'd make sure that she's on good terms with the one person who is (or at least, was) in a position to make this a reality. Instead she's managed to end up on bad terms with Daenerys. Your friend is much more likely to do what you want them to do than your enemy is.

And Jamie being clever? When? S8 Jamie is honorable and likable, but there's nothing clever about him.
He's been manipulated by people his entire life, first by his father and then by his sister.

[Lord of Bay Ridge]

7 hours ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Not even Podrick died in episode 3. You really think they're going to kill of Tyrion in ep 4 ?

If anything major happens in terms of death, has to happen ep 5 or 6. Talk about predictable.

There should be the possibility of a major death in every episode 

[Hippocras]

54 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

She's certainly acting for Jon... but she hasn't convinced Dany of anything other than of how difficult she is, and will be. The snatching away of her hand told you that.
That's not diplomacy. It doesn't make friends, nor get people to do what you want... it just marks you out as being a potential problem

Not all diplomacy is about making things easy for the other party. Dany has been acting like Sansa is just the sister and Jon kneeling meant she had the North. Sansa is doing a very effective job of communicating that that is not true. When Dany EARNS Sansa’s warmth and friendship she will also have earned the North. Sansa can’t afford to make Dany believe it is enough for them to just be friendly with each other.

Jon, and her by extension are actually in danger of losing the North if they bring fighters South to die again. Diplomacy is not just about how Dany perceives things, but about how the people she is leading see things.

[Hodor's Dragon]

23 minutes ago, Lord of Bay Ridge said:

There should be the possibility of a major death in every episode 

Granted, show Tyrion is a cut down from book Tyrion, but in the books Tyrion is arguably THE major character. Even in the show, I think only Jon, Dany and Arya are on par. Even with only three episodes left, you can't expect a death that major every episode.

Chances are that all four of those folks survive.

[Hodor's Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Not all diplomacy is about making things easy for the other party. Dany has been acting like Sansa is just the sister and Jon kneeling meant she had the North. Sansa is doing a very effective job of communicating that that is not true. When Dany EARNS Sansa’s warmth and friendship she will also have earned the North. Sansa can’t afford to make Dany believe it is enough for them to just be friendly with each other.

But that's what Minsc is saying, diplomats (and people who want something) don't make the people they are trying to persuade "earn" something as basic as "warmth." You don't lose anything by showing basic friendly good manners. You start with that and you can still negotiate.

Speaking of negotiation, what has Sansa showed signs of being willing to give?

[Hippocras]

1 minute ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

But that's what Minsc is saying, diplomats (and people who want something) don't make the people they are trying to persuade "earn" something as basic as "warmth." You don't lose anything by showing basic friendly good manners. You start with that and you can still negotiate.

Speaking of negotiation, what has Sansa showed signs of being willing to give?

Give what? Full hearted support for Dany’s conquest of Westeros, in return for zero guarantees that Dany will respect and defend the needs of the North in perpetuity, and a very serious risk that if she tries to send Northerners South to fight again her and Jon and all the Starks will be killed by their own enraged people.

[Cas Stark]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

I am not sure she is doing a poor job actually. Jon bent the knee, but Sansa is busy making it clear to Dany that winning over the North is not just about winning over Jon. She is actually representing the perspective of her people, and by doing so she is helping Jon KEEP the North, who showed weak loyalty in the past, re the Boltons, but also to King Robb.

She may even be trying to push Dany to a diplomatic confrontation to provide a demonstration to those who matter to the North (her people) of how Dany would go about dealing with differences. This actually seems smart to me. If so, she knows she might pay for it, but if Dany burns her, Dany definitely will NOT keep the North. If Dany wants the North she needs to earn it by showing she has long term solutions for the previously tyrannical relationship with the South. 

I hate Dany and her bend the knee BS, but at this point, she sacrificed a dragon, the entire Dothraki people, many/most of the unsullied and her oldest advisor Jorah Mormont to protect the North and Winterfell.  I would tell Sansa to bend the knee or prepare to burn.

[Hodor's Dragon]

22 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Give what? Full hearted support for Dany’s conquest of Westeros, in return for zero guarantees that Dany will respect and defend the needs of the North in perpetuity, and a very serious risk that if she tries to send Northerners South to fight again her and Jon and all the Starks will be killed by their own enraged people.

Something. I don't know what, but she needs to think of something because it's not negotiating if you aren't offering anything. Sansa is not in a position to make unilateral demands. 

[Hippocras]

1 minute ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Something. I don't know what, but she needs to think of something because it's not negotiating if you aren't offering anything. Sansa is not in a position to make unilateral demands. 

She has not made demands. She simply stated the truth. The people she represents are not interested in Southern rule. What is Dany going to do about that. « What of the North ». If the Starks give in to more of the same, the Starks will face Northern mutiny and Dany will still not have the loyalty of the North.

[Figdoni]

44 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Not all diplomacy is about making things easy for the other party. Dany has been acting like Sansa is just the sister and Jon kneeling meant she had the North. Sansa is doing a very effective job of communicating that that is not true. When Dany EARNS Sansa’s warmth and friendship she will also have earned the North. Sansa can’t afford to make Dany believe it is enough for them to just be friendly with each other.

I also would not define 'diplomacy' as making things easy for the other party... at all. 
But it is about giving people a reason to become your ally, even people who have competing agendas or interests, in a tactful way.
Sansa is completely failing in that regard.
She's providing resistance to Dany, yes... and whilst I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing IF your objective is to antagonise, draw lines in the sand and pick a fight... it will do nothing to harmonise Dany's interests with the interests of the North, in order to persuade the result she wants to happen.
It could badly blow up in her face too... and that aint clever.
 

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

Sansa might be "intelligent", but there's absolutely nothing clever about Sansa's actions this season so far in regards to Daenerys. 
Sansa clearly has her own agenda. If she wants to have it fulfilled without violence, she needs to start manipulating people and make them see stuff her way, as "friends", not as enemies. For someone who's learned to play the game from the best players there is, she's doing a really poor job so far.

Daenerys, a person who hasn't played the game at all, see's right trough her fake smiles and instantly notices how she doesn't like her. 
Even when Daenerys approaches with an open mind and tries to make "peace" (of sorts), Sansa manages to screw up by pressing the issue at a bad moment, instead of slowly starting to manipulate her. What's the saying, "it's easier to catch bee's with honey than vinegar"?

Agree.
Sansa is a character who has so far always acted in her own self interests.... the surviving and thriving of herself, and of that which is considers 'hers' (Starks, Winterfell, The North)...
As a child, going to Kings Landing, she was able to put her own interests ahead of her familys.
Coming back to Winterfell, and becoming Lady of Winterfell, she started to act for Winterfell & the Starks, such as her role in the battle of the bastards.
She now cares about the North.... but these are all things she regards has "hers" - her house, her pack, her people...
...stuff everyone else?

I've racked my brains to recall any altruistic manoeuvers from Sansa, where she has risked her own skin, or what she holds dear, for someone else... speaking up for Dontos & convincing Joffrey to make him a jester is the only thing I could recall... and thats pretty minor and accidental.

I actually hope she does do something truly selfless for someone else before the season closes because she's gotten a bit one dimensional.

Her undoubted intelligence, for me, is a damaged kind of thinking that has been warped somewhat by the self interested 'creatures' who taught her the lessons that took her to now... Cersei, Littlefinger, Ramsay....

That's not the kind of cleverness that I was thinking of when I said that there needs to be at least one clever person left alive by the end of the series. Its painfully limited and doesn't care about the bigger picture.

[Hodor's Dragon]

1 hour ago, Hippocras said:

She has not made demands. She simply stated the truth. The people she represents are not interested in Southern rule. What is Dany going to do about that. « What of the North ». If the Starks give in to more of the same, the Starks will face Northern mutiny and Dany will still not have the loyalty of the North.

Look at reality here. 

The King in the North, duly crowned and duly reigning, bent the knee to Daenerys. That's a fact. If Sansa thinks, after that, they're going to start from the position where the North is independent and then negotiate the rest of the details from there, that's f'n crazy. Of note, Daenerys explicitly conditioned her intervention on his bending the knee and he accepted. Now, here we are after the battle--and regardless of any questions about "What did Daenerys actually do" in the battle, from a political perspective Daenerys won the battle period. 

So that's where we are. Does Sansa have a counter-proposal or is she just flat-out saying the North is going to annul the lawful King's agreement and betray the alliance that won the biggest battle ever?

The latter just won't fly. If Sansa wants something, like independence for the north, Sansa has to offer something other than a question "what of the north." After all, if Dany is the right person to answer that question, that pretty much assumes she should be Queen of the 7K, no?

p.s. All this ignores the Aegon Targaryen angle, as the show seems to have done since it was briefly mentioned way back when, and I'm not sure if all this discussion of what Sansa has been trying to do re Daenerys will really matter whenever that jack jumps out of the box. But leaving that aside I can't see Sansa as having done anything constructive re Daenerys. It's been more like pitching a snit than like actually trying to affect a political conciliation. Daenerys came to her with an open heart and an open hand and Sansa has, quite simply, been less adult about it.

[Hodor's Dragon]

7 hours ago, Trinket2 said:

No. I don't really see Tyrion dying at all in the series. I think he'll survive. And I think there's no way Bronn will kill him or Jaime. Bronn has no reason at all to trust Cersei. 

100%. Bronn is fond of both those guys, has some certain amount of faith that they will bring him riches and a castle, etc., but mainly he knows better than to throw in with Cersei. She will get him killed, likely in a horrible way. Not only does he have a positive history with both of them, but T & J are clearly much better bets for the persons whose hands he wants to put his future in. It's really not even close.

[Kaguya]

13 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

100%. Bronn is fond of both those guys, has some certain amount of faith that they will bring him riches and a castle, etc., but mainly he knows better than to throw in with Cersei. She will get him killed, likely in a horrible way. Not only does he have a positive history with both of them, but T & J are clearly much better bets for the persons whose hands he wants to put his future in. It's really not even close.

If D&D had any creativity, they would remind the audience that Bronn is still an assassin at the end of the day. Having him go through with it would be great progression and would be an ‘on shit’ moment 

[a girl knows nothing]

11 minutes ago, Kaguya said:

If D&D had any creativity, they would remind the audience that Bronn is still an assassin at the end of the day. Having him go through with it would be great progression and would be an ‘on shit’ moment 

Assassins can still have loyalties though, Arya for instance. I don’t know about it being a “great progression” - to what, his character arc or the story? It doesn’t really fit in with his arc, in fact it seems like he has become less self-centered (not entirely, but less so) and more attached to others (Tyrion, Jaime, Pod). As far as story progression goes, I think other characters killing Tyrion (like Dany) and Jamie (Cersei) would work better. That being said, I do agree it would be shocking, at least to me, since it seems so unlikely Bronn will follow through.

[Hippocras]

8 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Look at reality here. 

The King in the North, duly crowned and duly reigning, bent the knee to Daenerys. That's a fact. If Sansa thinks, after that, they're going to start from the position where the North is independent and then negotiate the rest of the details from there, that's f'n crazy. Of note, Daenerys explicitly conditioned her intervention on his bending the knee and he accepted. Now, here we are after the battle--and regardless of any questions about "What did Daenerys actually do" in the battle, from a political perspective Daenerys won the battle period. 

So that's where we are. Does Sansa have a counter-proposal or is she just flat-out saying the North is going to annul the lawful King's agreement and betray the alliance that won the biggest battle ever?

The latter just won't fly. If Sansa wants something, like independence for the north, Sansa has to offer something other than a question "what of the north." After all, if Dany is the right person to answer that question, that pretty much assumes she should be Queen of the 7K, no?

p.s. All this ignores the Aegon Targaryen angle, as the show seems to have done since it was briefly mentioned way back when, and I'm not sure if all this discussion of what Sansa has been trying to do re Daenerys will really matter whenever that jack jumps out of the box. But leaving that aside I can't see Sansa as having done anything constructive re Daenerys. It's been more like pitching a snit than like actually trying to affect a political conciliation. Daenerys came to her with an open heart and an open hand and Sansa has, quite simply, been less adult about it.

You are not reading what I am saying. I will try again.

Yes, Jon bent the knee. When he did so he promptly LOST the Glovers, seriously pissed off the Mormonts, and those two represent the general feelings of the Northerners. So it doesn't MATTER what Jon did, if by DOING it he loses the support of the people he is leading.

Sansa understands this even if Jon is a clueless leader. What she is doing is REPRESENTING how the Northerners feel in general, and in this way ensuring that the Northerners genuinely feel represented. If she did NOT do this, then Jon would LOSE the North. So it doesn't f***ing matter what he did if he can't hold on to the support of his base. The Northerners are not his minions and Sansa very well knows they can not be trusted to just tow the line.

[MinscS2]

1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

Sansa understands this even if Jon is a clueless leader. What she is doing is REPRESENTING how the Northerners feel in general, and in this way ensuring that the Northerners genuinely feel represented. If she did NOT do this, then Jon would LOSE the North. So it doesn't f***ing matter what he did if he can't hold on to the support of his base. The Northerners are not his minions and Sansa very well knows they can not be trusted to just tow the line.

This doesn't explain her attitude in the last couple of episodes though.

OK, so Sansa represents the general attitude of how the northerners feel. Fair enough, I can get behind that.

On the other hand, why is she, in the meantime, acting like a petty child at every turn, regarding Daenerys? 
Sansa hiding in the crypt, sowing dissent and talking behind Daenerys back in a way that makes even Missandei react has nothing to do with Sansa representing the northerners. This is all just Sansa.
 

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

This doesn't explain her attitude in the last couple of episodes though.

OK, so Sansa represents the general attitude of how the northerners feel. Fair enough, I can get behind that.

On the other hand, why is she, in the meantime, acting like a petty child at every turn, regarding Daenerys? 
Sansa hiding in the crypt, sowing dissent and talking behind Daenerys back in a way that makes even Missandei react has nothing to do with Sansa representing the northerners. This is all just Sansa.
 

Wow, you just really don't want to have anything positive to say about Sansa it seems. Look, I like Dany's character too. That doesn't mean that if there is conflict between Sansa and Dany that I need to trash Sansa. They have different positions. Different needs. Different perspectives.

She is not acting like a petty child. Dany represents a serious problem for her as a Northern leader, and Jon too even if he doesn't see it. Sansa was there and witnessed what happened when her father went South, Robb became King and then was betrayed and slaughtered by his OWN bannermen. If a Stark doesn't push back a bit, someone else in the North will and she and her family will be dead.

Dany is asking the Northerners to go South AGAIN to fight Cersei. Sansa knows what Cersei is capable of, and also that by bending the knee to Dany, Jon made himself a target of Cersei, which means he made the North a target. Cersei is just as capable of turning Northern bannermen against the Starks as Tywin was. Far better if SANSA is the one Cersei thinks she can use to make her enemies kill each other. But to do that she needs to strongly appear to be against Dany.

As for her chat with Tyrion, that was a warning to him. She is playing a high stakes political game with long term goals for her people and her family, and if he seems to be too close to her he will get himself in trouble. She basically stated, while Missandei could hear, that Tyrion was loyal to Dany. Which frankly was a very helpful thing for her to do for him.

 

[Hippocras]

Now, as for Jaime's evolving cleverness:

Yes, he was blindsided by Cersei's move with the Golden Company. But so was everyone else, including Tyrion, so that hardly means he is an idiot. It was Jaime who came up with the strategy to abandon Casterly Rock and go for Highgarden, which had HUGE military payoffs in spite of the losses in the loot train attack.

It was also brilliant of him to use Edmure Tully's revulsion of him to make him THINK he would actually catapult his baby over the walls if he did not surrender Riverrun. Jaime used his reputation as a monster to actually save hundreds of lives and even keep his vow to never again raise arms against Cat's family.

Sure, he is not as well read as Tyrion and never will be. But losing his fighting hand was a very good thing for his growing use of his strategic brain.

Tyrion may not be able to be replaced by a single character but a combination of Jaime for military tactics, Sansa for management of the Realm's affairs, and Sam for deep knowledge of history and precedents would pretty much fill the hole if Tyrion did die, and Tyrion dying would be a very significant thing for altering how the rest of the characters deal with things.