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Tywin Tytosson

Lightbringer

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Posted (edited)

I was thinking about Lightbringer.  I am of the thought that the current incarnation of Lightbringer is/are Dany's dragons.  But we saw that dragonfire could not harm the NK.  And (in the show), we know that the NK was not killed during the Great War of the Dawn.  So maybe Lightbringer was never a weapon to kill the NK, but instead its purpose was to destroy the AotD (ie, the wights).  In the first Great War, Lightbringer was used for this purpose to great effect.  The dead were defeated/destroyed but the NK was not, and managed to retreat to the far north.

In Episode 3, we see this war's Lightbringer unsheathed.  The 2 dragons make quite a bit of hay out of the dead, even though they are not focused on the dead.  Or only 1 of them is.  I wonder ... if the living had used different tactics (or stategy), and used the dragons a lot more if they could have wiped out the AotD but ended up with a 2nd NK retreat to far north.  And another wait for another Long Night.  A repeat of what occurred before.

Anybody have any thoughts to share on the topic and what they think Lightbringer is?

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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Mad Mel was constantly wrong with her visions. The Dawn Age legends of Azor Ahai was being imagined as being a prediction about how this war would pan out. Perhaps instead of her seeing visions of getting Stannis to go North to help with the Great War she seen Stannis as Azor Ahai who had to go north, perhaps Aegon(then Jon) was also not ,meant to be Azor Ahai but part of the network of people who had to assemble the forces to fight the Great Other (note the similarity with the names of White Walkers in the books). 
In that light perhaps Danny was the "Prince that was Promised" but not fulfilling the whole prophecy as envisioned by people taking it too literally.
Off course this would be "bad writing" to have a whole sub plot just disappear without explanation even if there was a good one, and it might be over doing the explanations to get people out of bad plotting. 

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I think the TV series has actually done the right thing in pretty much ditching Azor Ahai/Lightbringer etc. It was a pretty half baked bit od mythology shoved in by GRRM and as he isn't likely to develop it further in any books and because it really doesn't make any real difference to the story, it's become just something for over-analytical fans to latch onto.

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42 minutes ago, Wagshell said:

I think the TV series has actually done the right thing in pretty much ditching Azor Ahai/Lightbringer etc. It was a pretty half baked bit od mythology shoved in by GRRM and as he isn't likely to develop it further in any books and because it really doesn't make any real difference to the story, it's become just something for over-analytical fans to latch onto.

Yeah. F the prophecy. Instead we got the beauty that was episode 3.

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11 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Yeah. F the prophecy. Instead we got the beauty that was episode 3.

Said with a total lack of sarcasm, eh?

YouTube is becoming full of videos about how much E803 sucked - the NightKing is becoming known as Snoke 2.0.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, ummester said:

Said with a total lack of sarcasm, eh?

YouTube is becoming full of videos about how much E803 sucked - the NightKing is becoming known as Snoke 2.0.

Not sure that is a comparison this fandom wants to make. Those Star Wars whiners are embarrassing. I am of the Hound school of whinging on this topic.

Edited by AryaNymeriaVisenya

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wagshell said:

I think the TV series has actually done the right thing in pretty much ditching Azor Ahai/Lightbringer etc. It was a pretty half baked bit od mythology shoved in by GRRM and as he isn't likely to develop it further in any books and because it really doesn't make any real difference to the story, it's become just something for over-analytical fans to latch onto.

As an analytical fan :thumbsup: (and proud of it), I wouldn't say that GRRM just shoved that in.  He has several prophecies and visions and whatnot in the books.  He likes to show that prophecies are dangerous things, and many times get misinterpreted by the people that see them or that try to bring them to be.  I highly doubt that he will abandon the Azor Ahai/PtwP prophecy.  It is mentioned in World of Ice and Fire, and has had quite an effect on recent history - at least one if not 2 Targs killed themselves trying to bring it to pass, Aerys II believed he would become a dragon, Rhaegar was a believer of it (thinking himself the embodiment for a while), even Aegon the Conqueror is reputed to have some belief in himself being AA/PtwP, leading to his unifying of Westeros.  Mel sees snow when trying to see Azor Ahai in the flames. 

I do expect GRRM to turn the prophecy on its head and have it end up not  being what was expected.

Part of the fun is trying to guess how GRRM will do this.   :leer:

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Not sure that is a comparison this fandom wants to make. Those Star Wars whiners are embarrassing. I am of the Hound school of whinging on this topic.

Eeeek! no, definitely not a comparison to make!  I agree - the SW whingers are quite embarrassing.   (I have been a longtime SW fan, but the complaining....wow, just ... wow)

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Not sure that is a comparison this fandom wants to make. Those Star Wars whiners are embarrassing. I am of the Hound school of whinging on this topic.

There is the obvious comparison that both franchises started with reasonable story telling and both turned to crap. Admittedly Star Wars hasn't been good since the 80s and went bad long before GoTs was an apple in GRRMs eye (although didn't GRRM say Lucas stole the Wookie design from him?)

It's something I really don't understand - how so much mainstream fantasy storytelling has become incoherent trash. Hollywood has forgotten how to tell mythological stories.

Edited by ummester

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I have always found theories of Lightbringer being anything other than a sword to be far too abstract to be elegant. They require too much metaphor and equivalency. IMO Lightbringer may not return in the show, but if it does, it is because it is a symbol of a solution to the world's ills first, and a weapon a distant second.

Dragons are a problem for the world, not a solution. They occasionally kill children. They never stop growing and eat everyone's food. And they skew the power balance in war far too much, easily and often in favour of tyrants. 

In the series, ancestral swords are established as family heirlooms far more than weapons. Occasionally characters fight with them, true. But their meaning isn't entirely about fighting. Some of those swords are only ever used for Justice, never fighting. This is why, IMO Lightbringer is going to be a sword or not in the show at all.

Develop a theory about Lightbringer being something that is about Justice and you might catch my interest, but dragons are not that.

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From my interpretations there are two Lightbringers, the one of legend and the one of prophecy. 

The prophetic one, which would be the important one for current events can be symbolic because most prophecies are symbolic.  In this way both of our candidates for The Prince that was Promised have obtained their potential Lightbringer.  Dany's dragons and Jon's Longclaw were both obtained by being pulled out of a fire.  Dany's was quite literal but her Lightbringer is more symbolic.  Jon obtained Longclaw by saving Jeor Mormant's life by killiing the wight with fire, and badly burning his hand in the process.

My theory about the one of legend is that it was a sword, a valyrian steel sword.  With this interpretation Arya killing the Night King with a valyrian steel dagger fits in line with the legend.  The only problem is that she can't be The Prince that was Promised.  However the prophecy isn't very clear on what the Prince must do only on how to identify them.  Since both Dany and Jon were instrumental to winning the battle, even though they didn't strike the last blow they could still be the Prince despite Arya killing the Night King.  Dany being more instrumental since without Drogon everyone would have been overwhelmed and killed.  Jon's major contribution was on recruiting Dany and encouraging Arya to return home.

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I think that the show simply dropped the whole Azor Ahai and Lightbringer narative as a hot potato because they didn't know what to do with it. On the other hand I'm pretty sure the prophecy will be fulfilled one way or another in the books (if the books are ever finished ofc).

Anyway, my interpretation is that it actually is a sword. I have no real theory on which sword and who will have it (ok, I think that Jon will create it by killing Dany), but I think that it is a sword.

23 minutes ago, Bran the Shipper said:

My theory about the one of legend is that it was a sword, a valyrian steel sword.  With this interpretation Arya killing the Night King with a valyrian steel dagger fits in line with the legend.  The only problem is that she can't be The Prince that was Promised.  However the prophecy isn't very clear on what the Prince must do only on how to identify them.  Since both Dany and Jon were instrumental to winning the battle, even though they didn't strike the last blow they could still be the Prince despite Arya killing the Night King.  Dany being more instrumental since without Drogon everyone would have been overwhelmed and killed.  Jon's major contribution was on recruiting Dany and encouraging Arya to return home. 

I just want to point out that Arya killing the NK is very likely a show-only thing because D&D said in the "behind the episode" (or what is the name) that they chose Arya to kill the NK because everyone predicted Jon to do it (I predicted Jaime though) and Arya was thus unpredictable. So I don't think that it will happen in the books too. And there also ain't the NK in the books iirc.

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The show abandoned all major prophecies. The books though, they are another cookie that will crumble entirely differently if George ever writes them.

IMO, In the books Jon Snow is The Lightbringer, Lucifer, the one who brings the Dawn. His father Rheagar, was Azor Ahai who made him by thrusting his "sword" in Nissa Nissa (Lyanna who I believe like all Starks has Children of the Forest blood in her veins), directly causing he death in the bed of blood.

Dany is perhaps another avatar of Azor Ahai, because she sees herself taking the face/mantle of her brother Rheagar in her visions.

All this means nothing in the show.

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10 hours ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

It's the dagger.  And Littlefinger is Nissa Nissa.  It is known.

Littlefinger as Nissa Nissa?  oh my! :o:D

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On 5/1/2019 at 11:19 PM, Tywin Tytosson said:

I was thinking about Lightbringer.  I am of the thought that the current incarnation of Lightbringer is/are Dany's dragons.  But we saw that dragonfire could not harm the NK.  And (in the show), we know that the NK was not killed during the Great War of the Dawn.  So maybe Lightbringer was never a weapon to kill the NK, but instead its purpose was to destroy the AotD (ie, the wights).  In the first Great War, Lightbringer was used for this purpose to great effect.  The dead were defeated/destroyed but the NK was not, and managed to retreat to the far north.

In Episode 3, we see this war's Lightbringer unsheathed.  The 2 dragons make quite a bit of hay out of the dead, even though they are not focused on the dead.  Or only 1 of them is.  I wonder ... if the living had used different tactics (or stategy), and used the dragons a lot more if they could have wiped out the AotD but ended up with a 2nd NK retreat to far north.  And another wait for another Long Night.  A repeat of what occurred before.

Anybody have any thoughts to share on the topic and what they think Lightbringer is?

I agree. I've always thought Lightbringer is Dany & her dragons, and Jon will wield them. 

And Cersei has always been set up to be the final boss (books & show.) 

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On 5/2/2019 at 8:19 AM, Bran the Shipper said:

From my interpretations there are two Lightbringers, the one of legend and the one of prophecy. 

The prophetic one, which would be the important one for current events can be symbolic because most prophecies are symbolic.  In this way both of our candidates for The Prince that was Promised have obtained their potential Lightbringer.  Dany's dragons and Jon's Longclaw were both obtained by being pulled out of a fire.  Dany's was quite literal but her Lightbringer is more symbolic.  Jon obtained Longclaw by saving Jeor Mormant's life by killiing the wight with fire, and badly burning his hand in the process.

My theory about the one of legend is that it was a sword, a valyrian steel sword.  With this interpretation Arya killing the Night King with a valyrian steel dagger fits in line with the legend.  The only problem is that she can't be The Prince that was Promised.  However the prophecy isn't very clear on what the Prince must do only on how to identify them.  Since both Dany and Jon were instrumental to winning the battle, even though they didn't strike the last blow they could still be the Prince despite Arya killing the Night King.  Dany being more instrumental since without Drogon everyone would have been overwhelmed and killed.  Jon's major contribution was on recruiting Dany and encouraging Arya to return home.

And giving Arya Needle in the first place, thus encouraging her training.

Everything is tied together.... Jamie saved the world a 2nd time by shoving Bran out of the window. If he hadn't, Bran isn't the Three Eyed Raven. He never gives Arya the dagger (which is so important it's in a book that Sam is reading at the Citadel.) He never tells Dany the NK has turned Viserion. 

I think Jamie will save the world a 3rd time when he kills Cersei. But Jon and Dany will set that up for him. 

Having the killing blow doesn't make you the PTWP. It just makes you their weapon.

I love the books. But until the rest are released, I'm going to assume we get to the same endgame until proven otherwise, since GRRM is still one of the Executive Producers.

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What can we add? Sure there were (still are) many Azor Ahaï, so there should be many lightbringers. While we don't really know the meaning of "Azor Ahaï" except maybe it should be a prince (princess) that was promised maybe, lightbringer in itself is supposed to be a "sword of fire". Well there's the name, and there's the image. 


Burning sword : Well there are swords that are made "ablaze" thanks to R'hllors magic, thanks to glamour, thanks to Wild fire. In the dreams there are burning swords representing honor, destiny, life.A lot of the expressions used with fire is "alive with fire", so it could be a living sword = a living being, people, a group of people. Gendry thinks the red comet was a burning sword (which prompted Lucifer means lightbringer to interpret all those prophecies in symbolism and cosmic events). So it's dubious lightbringer is "only" a burning sword.

The name: light bringer = bringer of light, of the dawn. So the first thing we can think about is the sun itself (the strange revelations in the opening sequences). Fire brings light, and dragons are "fire made flesh" = living fire. Candles bring light= the glass-candles are burning, but they don't bring light, they bring "truth" (according to Quaithe). And we arrive at the interesting parallel, Lucifer means lightbringer is true, but in the bible lucifer is the planet "Venus" the morningstar, and the eveningstar. But the bible isn't the only one with a "Lucifer/lightbringer", actually this expression comes from: Prometheus. The titan that brought fire to humanity. Prometheus means "foreseeing". And we have priests who want to "find lightbringers" that "foresee" thanks to fire, so I guess GRRM is nodding at it. So the "promethean" interpretation is interesting (also Prometheus is probably inspired by the divinity of Zoroastrianism Ahura Mazda=Lord Wisdom, that is an inspiration for the cult of R'hllor). And for Persians=Zoroastrians, one thing was important = the victory of the truth against the lie (Angra Mainyu). And with those elements of foresight, and lie and truth and knowledge, we get a lot of new interesting possibilities and parallels : Jojen Reed was a character with a lot of forsight. Qaithe promises "truths" in Ashaï. The Three Eyed Raven now Bran has foresight, knowledge, and can know all the truths. Samuel Tarly is somebody who is looking for "books" knowledge, and revealing their truths, Tyrion "drinks an knows things". And finally to close the loop I started the post with: Arya and the faceless Men and the Braavosi: First called "a sword" and becoming "no one", used to deal with "the god of death", learning that "the true seeing is where swordplay is at"(truth) and playing the "game of truth" at the service of the many faced God, bringer of the ultimate and inescapable truth of the asoiaf universe and our own : "Valar Morghulis" = All Men must die. Arya is definitly a Lightbringer!

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