Let's speculate about Illyrio's chests

[Ser Leftwich]

Ghoyan Drohe is a as far up the river as is navigable or deep enough draft at that time of year for the Shy Maid. It does not have to be a mystical anagram, it is likely just practical.

Are we allowed to mention the old version of this chapter? There was a very particular item mentioned in this chapter in the early released version of this chapter, either on Not a Blog or from a reading.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Prior to that, the last hint was from TWoIaF, implying - or at least making it possible - that Varys stole those dragon eggs Aerys II tried to hatch after Duskendale.

Citation please. Id also like citations for these things. Thanks

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, we did learn that the Targaryens still had dragon eggs as late as shortly before the Rebellion. 

...

but Blackfyre would have just been buried under the rabble. Considering that they may have been interested to recover the remains of the king and whoever else of the royal family had died in the catastrophe, I'm pretty confident that they would have found the sword.

I always assumed all the remaining westerosi dragon eggs were destroyed in Summerhall while Blackfyre always remained in Blackfyre hands. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I think the fact that Illyrio likely gave all his eggs to Dany does suggest that he might have had a hunch that she would hatch those eggs. This is the only good reason that could explain why he would have wasted the eggs on Dany. In the end it could turn out that Varys/Illyrio had a reason that marrying Dany to Drogo could bring the Targaryen dragons back somehow.

After all, we still have no clue why and how the original plan to marry Dany to Drogo and ally Viserys III with the Dothraki was made. Who came up with that and why? Viserys III himself most definitely not. Thus it was likely Illyrio's brainchild - but what exactly made him believe this was a good idea? Up to this point nobody had ever included the Dothraki in a political scheme (outside the Grasslands, at least) and most definitely in as mad an enterprise as invading Westeros.

Eggs to Aegon are like nipples to a breastplate. To Dany though they are a suitable wedding present and tokens of strength for the difficulty of the dothraki sea ahead of her. 3 priceless "stones" in the greatest khalassar can go unnoticed, but upon the Shy Maid itll be more revealing then absent blue hair dye. 

Illyrios plans not a bad one, Drogos khallasar is fearsome as hell, certainly not a bad edition to any army. Just because it hasnt been done before doesnt make it bad, like Dany and the Unsullied

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't recall anything from George about Robert's crown. We only know - or can deduce - that Cersei had a new crown made for Joffrey because when Tommen wears Joff's crown it is pointed out that it is too large for him. That implies that neither Joff nor Tommen ever wore Robert's crown.

Maybe? Your probably right, but its still possible that Joff Robert and Aerys all wore the same crown. Its interesting that the books dont fully explain it while it goes into the extravagance of the HS'. 

Renlys crown is probably a goner. Does Euron wear Balons? I hope to see Theons crown make a comeback, and obviously the Young Wolfs

[Hugorfonics]

5 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Are we allowed to mention the old version of this chapter? There was a very particular item mentioned in this chapter in the early released version of this chapter, either on Not a Blog or from a reading.

If you put it in spoilers, why not? I wont report you lol. Seriously im all ears

[Ser Leftwich]

2 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

If you put it in spoilers, why not? I wont report you lol. Seriously im all ears

In the early release/reading version GRRM explicitly mentions that there is a sword as a gift for Young Griff.

[Hugorfonics]

5 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

In the early release/reading version GRRM explicitly mentions that there is a sword as a gift for Young Griff.

 

Wow. Crazy. Thanks. 

thats pretty much a guarantee that hes fAegon. I was convinced by an obscure memory of the GC laughing in Viserys' face. A sword is a much nicer hint.

Id be interested if there was a collection of old book release/readings of things that did not happen. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Citation please. Id also like citations for these things. Thanks

Quote

In the wake of Duskendale, the king also began to display signs of an ever-increasing obsession with dragonfire, similar to that which had haunted several of his forebears. Lord Darklyn would never have dared defy him if he had been a dragonrider, Aerys reasoned. His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

Prior to FaB the best guess as to where Dany's eggs came from was that Varys stole those eggs found on Dragonstone - which were likely brought to KL for the attempts to hatch them - during/after the Sack. Since it is common knowledge that the Baratheons don't have any dragon eggs.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

I always assumed all the remaining westerosi dragon eggs were destroyed in Summerhall while Blackfyre always remained in Blackfyre hands.

The above quote confirms that not all dragon eggs were destroyed at Summerhall. Blackfyre's whereabouts are unknown, but TWoIaF also strongly indicates that the sword may not have remained with the Blackfyres.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Eggs to Aegon are like nipples to a breastplate. To Dany though they are a suitable wedding present and tokens of strength for the difficulty of the dothraki sea ahead of her. 3 priceless "stones" in the greatest khalassar can go unnoticed, but upon the Shy Maid itll be more revealing then absent blue hair dye. 

That makes no sense considering that dragon eggs were seen as powerful symbols of kingship during, say, the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. Bloodraven jumped through a lot of hoots to ensure the Blackfyres didn't acquire a dragon egg at Whitewalls.

If you have an obscure prince you want to look like a Targaryen you better give him objects that make him look like a Targaryen.

Dany, on the other hand, was most definitely a Targaryen princess and in no need of dragon eggs. Drogo had decided to marry her long before she even got them and he never gave a fig about those eggs.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Maybe? Your probably right, but its still possible that Joff Robert and Aerys all wore the same crown. Its interesting that the books dont fully explain it while it goes into the extravagance of the HS'. 

It is not possible that Joff wore his father's crown since it is explicitly mentioned that Joff's crown was made for him. Robert is not likely to have ever worn Aerys II crown - originally the crown of the Unworthy - because that was a golden monstrosity depicting dragons.

Asking George about the crowns of the Baratheon kings - both Robert and Joffrey - is something somebody should be doing during a Q&A. It is something we basically have no information about. 

Here is a link depicting all the crowns we know so far: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Crown

I'd assume that Alicent Hightower and Helaena Targaryen actually wore the crowns of Good Queen Alysanne, considering that Viserys I also chose to wear the crown of the Old King. Aegon II wanted to go with the Conqueror's crown, but Alicent likely didn't wear one of the crowns of Visenya or Rhaenys.

[Hugorfonics]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Prior to FaB the best guess as to where Dany's eggs came from was that Varys stole those eggs found on Dragonstone - which were likely brought to KL for the attempts to hatch them - during/after the Sack. Since it is common knowledge that the Baratheons don't have any dragon eggs.

The above quote confirms that not all dragon eggs were destroyed at Summerhall.

Ok, cool. Thank you.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Blackfyre's whereabouts are unknown, but TWoIaF also strongly indicates that the sword may not have remained with the Blackfyres.

One more citation please? Or just point me to the chapter and I can look it up. Thanks

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That makes no sense considering that dragon eggs were seen as powerful symbols of kingship during, say, the Second Blackfyre Rebellion. Bloodraven jumped through a lot of hoots to ensure the Blackfyres didn't acquire a dragon egg at Whitewalls.

I think that was more to prevent a living dragon falling in the Fiddlers hand, not an egg. A dragon would have brought Westeros to its knees, an egg would do nothing. The Whitehall tourney folk thought the Fiddler was in possession of the egg, or soon to be yet still doubted him.

However the nail in the coffin was his sword wasnt Blackfyre

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you have an obscure prince you want to look like a Targaryen you better give him objects that make him look like a Targaryen.

But he already does look like a Targaryen. In fact thats the problem, hes been hiding his heritage from birth, mostly from pirates. Folks you dont want to sail next to with valuables.

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany, on the other hand, was most definitely a Targaryen princess and in no need of dragon eggs. Drogo had decided to marry her long before she even got them and he never gave a fig about those eggs.

The gifts were for Dany, not Drogo. Illyrio is rich as hell and likes to show it off. Arranging a marriage of a princess and khal in his own house will bring in many eyes, and Illyrio must give a gift to match the occasion.

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not possible that Joff wore his father's crown since it is explicitly mentioned that Joff's crown was made for him. 

Ok, now really one more citation please? Lol. 

55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert is not likely to have ever worn Aerys II crown - originally the crown of the Unworthy - because that was a golden monstrosity depicting dragons.

Yea, I figure they would have mentioned a dragon on Roberts crown

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Asking George about the crowns of the Baratheon kings - both Robert and Joffrey - is something somebody should be doing during a Q&A. It is something we basically have no information about. 

Yea thatd be cool to know, I think thats info low leval enough that hed tell us

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Here is a link depicting all the crowns we know so far: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Crown

I'd assume that Alicent Hightower and Helaena Targaryen actually wore the crowns of Good Queen Alysanne, considering that Viserys I also chose to wear the crown of the Old King. Aegon II wanted to go with the Conqueror's crown, but Alicent likely didn't wear one of the crowns of Visenya or Rhaenys.

Cool, thanks

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, cool. Thank you.

One more citation please? Or just point me to the chapter and I can look it up. Thanks

Quote

The Second Blackfyre Rebellion proved a debacle, but that was not always to be the case. In 219 AC, Haegon Blackfyre and Bittersteel launched the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Of the deeds done then, both good and ill—of the leadership of Maekar, the actions of Aerion Brightflame, the courage of Maekar's youngest son, and the second duel between Bloodraven and Bittersteel—we know well. The pretender Haegon I Blackfyre died in the aftermath of battle, slain treacherously after he had given up his sword, but Ser Aegor Rivers, Bittersteel, was taken alive and returned to the Red Keep in chains. Many still insist that if he had been put to the sword then and there, as Prince Aerion and Bloodraven urged, it might have meant an early end to the Blackfyre ambitions.

Said sword almost certainly was Blackfyre. There is, of course, a chance that the Blackfyres managed to steal it back somehow but at this point we have no idea that this happened. But more importantly, the ways Daemon III Blackfyre and Maelys Blackfyre later died also makes it not very likely that their kin and descendants were able to retrieve the sword after those battles were over, because they were slain under such circumstances that the Targaryen loyalists should have been able to capture the blade.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I think that was more to prevent a living dragon falling in the Fiddlers hand, not an egg. A dragon would have brought Westeros to its knees, an egg would do nothing. The Whitehall tourney folk thought the Fiddler was in possession of the egg, or soon to be yet still doubted him.

He tried to prevent both, actually. And Daemon never had the egg, it was still in possession of Lord Ambrose Butterwell when the dwarf stole it. If Daemon II had escaped from Whitewalls with the egg he would have had something to show to followers and people wanting to believe in the Blackfyre cause could have pointed to the egg, telling each other that their king would eventually hatch it.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But he already does look like a Targaryen. In fact thats the problem, hes been hiding his heritage from birth, mostly from pirates. Folks you dont want to sail next to with valuables.

Sure, which is why we assumed that some dragon eggs might be in those chest we talk about. Or that he is later going to be presented with such eggs during his coronation feast.

Aegon can need all the Targaryen trinkets he can get because he simply has no proof that he is who he says he is. Looks mean little and less if people think they have good reason to believe you are dead.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

The gifts were for Dany, not Drogo. Illyrio is rich as hell and likes to show it off. Arranging a marriage of a princess and khal in his own house will bring in many eyes, and Illyrio must give a gift to match the occasion.

Sure, but why not give Dany the worth of the dragon eggs in gold or jewels? That would have been an equally lavish gift, no?

Bottom line is: If Illyrio has only those three eggs then we cannot really explain why he gave all of them to Dany and none of them to Aegon - especially if Aegon is supposed to be the 'real plan'. After all, if they did not hope or expect Dany to hatch the eggs then they would likely disappear in the Dothraki Sea. Because there is no guarantee that Khal Drogo would permit Dany to accompany them to Westeros or that Drogo himself would come with them - after all, the original plan was that Drogo gives Viserys III a portion of his troops, not that the entire khalasar goes to Westeros.

3 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, now really one more citation please? Lol. 

You can that also draw from the linked wiki article.

[Mon ami]

What could be in those chests?  Dragon eggs recovered from the ruins of Summer Hall.  The Targaryens are not what you could call materialistic.  They valued dragons more than riches.  

[Hugorfonics]

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Said sword almost certainly was Blackfyre. There is, of course, a chance that the Blackfyres managed to steal it back somehow but at this point we have no idea that this happened. But more importantly, the ways Daemon III Blackfyre and Maelys Blackfyre later died also makes it not very likely that their kin and descendants were able to retrieve the sword after those battles were over, because they were slain under such circumstances that the Targaryen loyalists should have been able to capture the blade.

Cool, thanks. That is implied its Blackfyre. Its probably deliberately not mentioned to give GRRM some wiggle room

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He tried to prevent both, actually. And Daemon never had the egg, it was still in possession of Lord Ambrose Butterwell when the dwarf stole it. If Daemon II had escaped from Whitewalls with the egg he would have had something to show to followers and people wanting to believe in the Blackfyre cause could have pointed to the egg, telling each other that their king would eventually hatch it.

I guess, but if they want to believe in the Black Dragon then theyre already belivers, and to anyone hesitant they could look at any egg from the Red Dragon and claim thatll eventually hatch, Egg made it cleat that eggs arent that special for Targs.

Now a living dragon, is all the fiddler talked about. And that along with his prophetic dreams is what made Brynden steal the egg. He was worried about a hatched dragon, not a black castle made up of Butterballs and Freys.

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, which is why we assumed that some dragon eggs might be in those chest we talk about. Or that he is later going to be presented with such eggs during his coronation feast.

But those chests were given in pirate waters. And whats the point of eggs at his coronation? Thatd be after he won the throne and thusly no need for trinkets

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon can need all the Targaryen trinkets he can get because he simply has no proof that he is who he says he is. Looks mean little and less if people think they have good reason to believe you are dead.

Wouldnt 3 stones look extra suspect seeing on how his aunt has 3 dragons. I think proving your inability to hatch eggs would be far more damaging then simply not having them. 

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but why not give Dany the worth of the dragon eggs in gold or jewels? That would have been an equally lavish gift, no?

Or in cheese? Illyrio chose something peronsal, touching and extravagant. They were the perfect gifts

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Bottom line is: If Illyrio has only those three eggs then we cannot really explain why he gave all of them to Dany and none of them to Aegon - especially if Aegon is supposed to be the 'real plan'. After all, if they did not hope or expect Dany to hatch the eggs then they would likely disappear in the Dothraki Sea. Because there is no guarantee that Khal Drogo would permit Dany to accompany them to Westeros or that Drogo himself would come with them - after all, the original plan was that Drogo gives Viserys III a portion of his troops, not that the entire khalasar goes to Westeros.

Illyrio is as rich as sin. Him losing three dragon eggs are akin to me throwing three pennies in a fountain. Its a nice gesture but mostly meaningless

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You can that also draw from the linked wiki article.

Lol word. I couldn't find anything about Robert. I did find something about Joffs but it didnt mention how new it was. It was black with rubys. Looked much more Targ then Lannister or Baratheon

[Springwatch]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany, on the other hand, was most definitely a Targaryen princess and in no need of dragon eggs. Drogo had decided to marry her long before she even got them and he never gave a fig about those eggs.

 

12 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The gifts were for Dany, not Drogo. Illyrio is rich as hell and likes to show it off. Arranging a marriage of a princess and khal in his own house will bring in many eyes, and Illyrio must give a gift to match the occasion.

I don't believe that for a pico second.

The Dothraki make a big pretence about not buying and selling; but everyone knows they have a keen sense of what a gift is worth.

So the value of the eggs is:

Quote

[Jorah] "... with all three Viserys could buy as many sellswords as he might need."

It is the Dothraki way to receive a gift, and return a gift of equivalent value. The khals direct their armies away from the free cities only when a suitable 'gift' has been received. I think they do 'give a fig' about wealth. It's about power and prestige.

Drogo has a wife with three dragon eggs. His sons will own three dragon eggs. That's the bottom line.

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't believe that for a pico second.

Not once was it implied that the eggs were Drogos, or anybodys but Danys

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

The Dothraki make a big pretence about not buying and selling; but everyone knows they have a keen sense of what a gift is worth.

Do they? Their two main types of currency, slaves and horses, are often used for rape or food. When it comes to gold we see it melted down and used for murder/a hat. 

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

So the value of the eggs is:

It is the Dothraki way to receive a gift, and return a gift of equivalent value. The khals direct their armies away from the free cities only when a suitable 'gift' has been received. I think they do 'give a fig' about wealth. It's about power and prestige.

Drogo has a wife with three dragon eggs. His sons will own three dragon eggs. That's the bottom line.

Unless she chooses to give them away. Like she planned to with Viserys. It was well within their rights to ask and offer those gifts and outside Drogos to intervene

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't believe that for a pico second.

The Dothraki make a big pretence about not buying and selling; but everyone knows they have a keen sense of what a gift is worth.

So the value of the eggs is:

It is the Dothraki way to receive a gift, and return a gift of equivalent value. The khals direct their armies away from the free cities only when a suitable 'gift' has been received. I think they do 'give a fig' about wealth. It's about power and prestige.

Drogo has a wife with three dragon eggs. His sons will own three dragon eggs. That's the bottom line.

Drogo never shows any interest in any of those eggs. Your idea is thus not exactly supported by the text.

It is quite clear that Drogo must have been very interested in having a wife descended from the dragonlords of Old Valyria - else he would have never married Daenerys Targaryen - but aside from that we basically know nothing about his reasons for marrying Dany. The idea that he gave a fig about her having dragon eggs and passing them on to his children is, at this point, without basis.

But we can be reasonably confident, I think, that Dany is going to learn more about the secret negotiations and politicking eventually leading to her marriage to Drogo when she returns to Vaes Dothrak in TWoW. The dosh khaleen should know more about all that, not to mention Khal Jhaqo and other prominent Dothraki formerly from Drogo's khalasar.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Evidence of Aegon's identity.  Rhaegar's helm, which Dany will recognize from her vision. 

 

[Seams]

I went back and re-read the chapter (ADwD, Chap. 5, Tyrion II). We are told that Illyrio brings six chests for Griff's group, but I think the seventh chest is the litter in which he and Tyrion travel. Initially, I was thinking that Tyrion is the dragon that will hatch out of the litter / egg. To be consistent, though, I think the two people in the litter have to be considered together: both Tyrion and Illyrio are dragon hatchlings, incubating in the litter.

There is a great deal of imagery around dragons in the conversation, dreams and thoughts of Tyrion and Illyrio as they travel.

The eggshell, growth and rebirth imagery are also strong.

Before Bran climbed the old keep, he accepted a blackberry from a man (gardener) in the glass house at Winterfell. Brienne and Nimble Dick had to push through blackberry brambles to gain entry to the old ruin at The Whispers. Tyrion drinks a couple glasses of blackberry wine with Illyrio as they near their destination (although Tyrion waves away the offer of blackberries in milk). The berry / bury wordplay seems like an obvious possibility with berries, and I suspect that ingesting a blackberry allows the right person to enter the Otherworld.

So Illyrio does bring a dragon egg to Young Griff and his traveling companions. The dragon is Tyrion.

Of course, Illyrio tells Tyrion that he is bringing him to Griff because Griff is headed that way and can protect Tyrion as he travels toward Daenerys. Maybe that really is Illyrio's intention.

Illyrio's dragon blood can probably be explained by the Blackfyre theories about him. Except a lot of those theories seem to focus on Illyrio's late wife, Serra, with fAegon as their son, raised to think he is Rhaegar's son. The little hints in the chapter lead me to suspect that Illyrio might also be a Blackfyre by blood, not just by marriage. In fact, I wonder whether Serra was his sister and they had a traditional incestuous Targaryen relationship.

[asongofheresy]

On 5/3/2019 at 9:14 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

 

  Hide contents

In the early release/reading version GRRM explicitly mentions that there is a sword as a gift for Young Griff.

 

No he doesn't. Illyrio says he has a gift for Aegon, in the real chapter it is revealed the gift is candied ginger. 

[Springwatch]

On 5/4/2019 at 6:27 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Not once was it implied that the eggs were Drogos, or anybodys but Danys

Do they? Their two main types of currency, slaves and horses, are often used for rape or food. When it comes to gold we see it melted down and used for murder/a hat. 

Unless she chooses to give them away. Like she planned to with Viserys. It was well within their rights to ask and offer those gifts and outside Drogos to intervene

One thing we're sure of is that the Dothraki have no conception of human rights.

Women are chattel. By Dothraki custom, a khal may share his wife with his bloodriders - not something any free woman would choose. If he believes he owns her body, he certainly believes he owns her stuff as well.

It's not so much about what Drogo's personal ethics, but the image of power he projects over his fellow khals and his aggressive, unruly people. He has to look strong, in their terms.

So, the Dothraki look at the trophies Drogo wins in life - the gold, the Targ princess, the dragon eggs - and they think wow, khal of khals, he's the top.

What would they think if Dany gave away the dragon eggs? Not a scenario we ever got to see, but it would be intense. Drogo, who thought he was so great, loses dragon eggs to Sorefoot Viserys, the Cart King. No humiliation could be worse.

On 5/4/2019 at 6:47 PM, Lord Varys said:

Drogo never shows any interest in any of those eggs. Your idea is thus not exactly supported by the text.

It is quite clear that Drogo must have been very interested in having a wife descended from the dragonlords of Old Valyria - else he would have never married Daenerys Targaryen - but aside from that we basically know nothing about his reasons for marrying Dany. The idea that he gave a fig about her having dragon eggs and passing them on to his children is, at this point, without basis.

Drogo also appears unmoved by having his nipple cut off, but must we believe in that too? No, obviously it hurt like hell.

Drogo has a false face; he puts on a front  to meet his followers expectations of the ideal Dothraki leader, brave and strong - and also, too high-minded to care about money.

Syrio says says look for the realities, not words. The reality is that Drogo is not that interested in luxury (he lives the simple life at home).  He is interested in wealth, otherwise he wouldn't go to all the trouble of taking slaves to the Slaver cities, and he wouldn't lift the siege on free cities.

So it's not wealth, as such, it's wealth as tokens of success, as a marker of his victories in the Dothraki game of thrones.

Quote

But we can be reasonably confident, I think, that Dany is going to learn more about the secret negotiations and politicking eventually leading to her marriage to Drogo when she returns to Vaes Dothrak in TWoW. The dosh khaleen should know more about all that, not to mention Khal Jhaqo and other prominent Dothraki formerly from Drogo's khalasar.

I would be interested to see that, certainly.

Which brings us back to Illyrio. A very wealthy man, without a doubt. But - we don't know his overall position, financially. He earns a lot, and he spends a lot.  Recently, his spending has gone through the roof: he's bought two armies, for the purposes of invading a continent. He's just one man! Armies are usually bought by city states, not individuals.

I think Illyrio has thrown everything into Aegon's adventure. He didn't give away the wealth embodied in the dragon eggs - he is spending big in order to win big.

When Tyrion leaves to join the Shy Maid, he thinks Illyrio looks smaller, diminished. A suggestion, perhaps, that Illyrio has emptied himself out in Aegon's cause. He may be bankrupt. Whatever is in those chests is the last of the gifts he can give.

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

One thing we're sure of is that the Dothraki have no conception of human rights.

Yea, I really cant think of any lol.

What I can think of is property rights. Silver is Danys and Drogos is Drogos. Jorah was promised any horse, except those two. When Dany burned Drogo and his stuff she forbade her wedding weapon presents to be burned, because they were hers.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Women are chattel. By Dothraki custom, a khal may share his wife with his bloodriders - not something any free woman would choose. 

I think thats a rule reserved for bloodriders. An old tradition reserved for the boss, kinda like Westeros' first night.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

If he believes he owns her body, he certainly believes he owns her stuff as well.

Thats a bit of a stretch. A khaleesi is not a slave

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It's not so much about what Drogo's personal ethics, but the image of power he projects over his fellow khals and his aggressive, unruly people. He has to look strong, in their terms.

So, the Dothraki look at the trophies Drogo wins in life - the gold, the Targ princess, the dragon eggs - and they think wow, khal of khals, he's the top.

3 stones are useless to Dothraki. You cant wear them around your neck like gold, you can't sell them like slaves or ride them like horses. 

Drogo certainly flosses, but his power isnt invested in wealth, its invested in beheading enemy khals and their sons.

5 hours ago, Springwatch said:

What would they think if Dany gave away the dragon eggs? Not a scenario we ever got to see, but it would be intense. Drogo, who thought he was so great, loses dragon eggs to Sorefoot Viserys, the Cart King. No humiliation could be worse.

I dont think anyone would care, if anything theyd be relieved that the annoying guy left. The eggs were simply not Drogos, like Danys wedding weapon presents are no longer hers but her bloodriders.

And Viserys was a pitiful ally, but an ally he was. Drogo knew he should help make the 7 kingdoms a gift for Viserys. 

 

(Now that im thinking maybe Drogo owed a gift to Illyrio and not Viserys. It would explain his reluctance in agot. And the GC did expect the Dothraki. After all, wasnt it Illyrio who gave away Dany? It was his house)

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

As others have said, thanks to a previous version of that chapter which GRRM read out at a con, we know there is a sword. We suspect it is Blackfyre. I'd say that is a high probability. If it was handed over to BR. Then it was at the RK all these years being used by various Targaryens. And eventually being secreted away by Varys.  There's a fly in that ointment though as surely had Tywin known Aerys had Blackfyre he would have sought it out and torn the Red Keep apart trying to find it and claim it as his own.  

To me the passage in the world book is way too ambiguous to say that it was BLackfyre which was handed over.  But I do think Illyrio has gifted it to fAegon. There are also certain crowns which he has the opportunity to have recovered with his great wealth. Or indeed had re-made. Aegon I is the obvious one and it would seem fAegon is evoking him already in the description of his iron and ruby necklace. 

Jaehaerys' is another which we know Rhaenyra sold. I am of the opinion that Rhaella, Haelena, and Alicant all wore Allysanne's crown. And that this is the one Viserys was forced to sell. 

Illyrio of course may have attempted to recover or recreate any of the above in an attempt at legitimising his son in the realms eyes as the child of Rhaegar. Or at least as a worthy enough substitute for enemies of Cersei to get behind and say they believe in. I do not doubt that not everyone who fights for him will be a believer. 

Clothes are very important in the time period GRRM has recreated here. This is a time analogous to our own middle ages and it is a time when cloth is a luxury commodity used to display ones wealth and status. Court clothing is very important and giving fAegon adequate silks, velvets, samites, etc is vital to his image.  Armour as has been said is bulky and would take up a lot of space in those trunks. Gifts for Dany might include silks for her, perfums, sweetmeats, elaborate tapestries(an extremely expensive high status item) rugs and carpets, jewels, etc. 

Candied Ginger coupled with Illyrio's sadness is another hint that he is his son. A sweet treat is indicative of early childhood when this is what brings a smile to a young child' face. The joy of indulging ones offspring and the simple gift of a sweetie from a man who could buy him anything he could ever desire...he is trying to make the boy a King but in the process he has had to give up his own role as his father. This is why he sends the boys favourite sweeties. It' is a gift from the heart. 

[Springwatch]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea, I really cant think of any lol.

What I can think of is property rights. Silver is Danys and Drogos is Drogos. Jorah was promised any horse, except those two. When Dany burned Drogo and his stuff she forbade her wedding weapon presents to be burned, because they were hers.

<snip>

After 5 years on the forum, I think I've just hit peak disagreement with a fellow poster.  More than words can express - so I won't try, except for the snippet above.

No, the Dothraki do not respect property rights (why would this even be a surprise?)

Eroeh was Dany's property because the khal supported her claim. When the khal was sick and powerless. Eroeh was seized, gang-raped and murdered. Horses and slaves that were Drogo's property were stolen too. Rakharo explains that this is the Dothraki way: 'It is the right of the strong to take from the weak.'