What was your personal GoT breaking point?

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

I'd say that one is pretty decent. Gold mines do eventually run out and the Lanisters have been mining it for centuries, if not eons. 

Yeah, but they didn't run out in the books, did they? And those morons actually build up the Lannisters as the rich-as-hell shits they are in the books. Wealth in a medieval setting cannot be projected, especially not when it is literally based on gold. The Lannisters aren't bankers or traders, they actually sit on a huge pile of gold, pretty much like Scrooge McDuck. There is no chance that Tywin pulls some sort of snowball system scam.

If they had hinted at that some more I could have perhaps bought it, but there was no buildup to that, not to mention that it was literally a complete rehash of the Xaro plot line from Qarth.

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It also allows some narrative suspense to make the Lanisters seem less all powerful. The plot point was introduced when the Lanisters reigned supreme and were practically promoted to the POV house after the Starks were defeated. With their enemies gone and Tywin seemingly being dominant there has to be some sort of weakness to them lest their victories become assured long before the fight takes place.

There were many other ways to do that, for example, just accurately portray Tyrell power and ambition (especially in the military department). They are more powerful than the Lannisters. There was also Dorne, Dany across the Narrow Sea, etc., and, of course, the internal tensions among House Lannister.

Also, it didn't lead anywhere, turned out to be all fake tension. If I recall correctly they also built up the Iron Bank as this monstrous threat around that time point, since the Crown was so much indebted to them - and then this lead literally nowhere, too.

If the Lannisters were broke Cersei would have *never* been able to seize and hold the Iron Throne. A broke House Lannister would also be enormously indebted to other parties considering Tywin had been waging an all-out war while being broke already - in addition to the debts of the Crown. They would essentially be finished.

Addendum:

But then, we all have different breaking points. This kind of thing really made it clear to me that these people really don't give a crap about being true to the source material. They don't even understand that. All the changes and additions they make are cheap and inconsistent nonsense.

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think there were big problems with Shae involving changing her characterization to make her more likeable and then reverting back. But I didn't have a problem with her death scene. Tyrion was sentenced to death thanks to the testimony of someone he loved, then he finds her in his father's bed. Not surprising that he would try to kill her. Shae grabbing a knife to defend herself is more consistent with her characterization than begging for her life would be.

The problem here is that what they did was just so inferior to the great and enormously complex internal and external conflict that is the double murder that it just falls completely flat when you see it depicted that way.

Giving Shae more screen time is well and good, but it should have been with her character arc and role in mind. And not only hers but also the self-loathing and insecurities of Tyrion the Imp. Yes, Dinklage is pretty good-looking, but he is still dwarf and playing the role of one such in a world full of powerfully built and strong man. He could have been more like the Tyrion in the books, especially if they had used the opportunity to really disfigure him during the Blackwater.

Not to mention that this whole thing is, in the end, about Tysha not Shae. I mean, the thing that makes Tyrion really snap, I think, is that his dear dad forced him to rape Tysha, too - something the show omitted. I mean, if you put yourself into his shoes for a moment then this is really one of the most horrible things a person like Tyrion could get through. He had wife who loved him, and he betrayed her in the worst way possible due to a lie of his father, something that caused him to pretty much resent himself throughout his life and obsess over whores because he thought the only woman who ever gave him the feeling he was loved (believing Tywin's lie) was a whore.

The setup here was done masterfully by George but even with this powerful material they failed to properly build it and get to this point.

 

 

[divica]

For me it was season 6. I know a lot of people don t like season 5 and it had serious problems but to me it seems like they were trying to make a show that was loyal to the books with the exception of some secondary characters.

However season 6 just doesn t make sense. Between the sandsnakes killing the male martells and taking over dorne, to danny burning all the kahls and gaining total obedience from ALL the dothriaki, to jon being ressurected in the worst way possible without it having any effect, to how stupid jon and sansa were in the BOB, cersei blowing the sept with all those important people and getting to be queen… It is very dificult to find a trace of logic in that entire season!

[Cas Stark]

Season 5 was bad, it ruined a number of characters and stories, but it still had some nice scenes,  it was like the series was on the precipice, it could hold on, maybe even regroup or fall off the cliff.  Sadly, we know what happened.  

Literally all I can remember of the last two years is the loot train segment, which was spectacular, despite Highgarden turning into Monument Valley and the burning of the sept, which while it also contained a fair amount of stupid stuff, was still overall a nice episode with good pacing and so forth.  But that is 1 episode and 1 scene out of two seasons that I can remember as good.  

[LadyBlackwater]

For me its the absence of so many little things from the books. Jamie never told Tyrion the truth about Tysha?! I mean, that's one of the big reasons he went to his fathers chamber in the first place! The reason he got so upset about the word "whore"! While I will be seeing the show through, I am a book girl all the way. One of the reasons I LOVE LOVE LOVE the books so much is the details. GRRM is such a descriptive writer. When I'm reading the books, I feel what they are feeling every step of the way. I don't feel that way so much when I watch the show. 

[The One Who Kneels]

End of Season 4 for me. I'd always had some issues but I just chalked it up to the inherent problems with a TV adaptation of a fairly sprawling book series. Then they did such a poor job in that last episode (Stannis' underwhelming arrival, the Harryhausen wights just casually killing off Jojen, the idiotic Brienne/Sandor fight, Tyrion and Jaime forgetting about Tysha etc) that I realized the problems ran much deeper.

Season 5 was the first time I remember thinking all the way through "Of course this is all really stupid it's Game of Thrones."

[Lord Varys]

41 minutes ago, The One Who Kneels said:

the Harryhausen wights just casually killing off Jojen

Oh, yeah, that was just external shame. I mean, seriously, that was just crap. You can pay Harryhausen a tribute, sure, but not by suddenly changing the established rules for your zombies.

And slow zombies are always scarier than the fast ones (because they have this 'you can't stop them, you can't, in the end, outrun them' vibe). But Harryhausen skeletons scare no one. They are just silly and work in a comedy, not a series that's supposed to take itself seriously.
 

[The One Who Kneels]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, yeah, that was just external shame. I mean, seriously, that was just crap. You can pay Harryhausen a tribute, sure, but not by suddenly changing the established rules for your zombies.

And slow zombies are always scarier than the fast ones (because they have this 'you can't stop them, you can't, in the end, outrun them' vibe). But Harryhausen skeletons scare no one. They are just silly and work in a comedy, not a series that's supposed to take itself seriously.
 

Maybe that's what the whole White Walker plotline was actually meant to be. All this time we've been trying to take it seriously when the show was really trying to be an extended homage to Army of Darkness. 

[kissdbyfire]

You guys are very generous.

There were always issues, or warning signs, even in series 1. But pretty minor stuff, a couple or nitpicks, nothing huge. I really disliked series 2. Then 3 was a bit better, despite grandpa Tywin & Arya - I know most love those scenes but I truly hated them. I really didn’t like s4 either... was s4 when we got Talisa? And Jaime and Cersei in the sept? Yikes. Another fan favourite that I complained a lot about was the battle at the end of s4. Sweet summer child that I was, because now, comparing it to 803 that was perfection. Even if it was already dark, it wasn’t anywhere near the pitch-black-can’t-see-a-damn-thing that was 803. But still thought s3 & 4 were better than 2. But the actual shark-jumping that made me believe it would never ever get back on track was s5 w/ all the stupidity and plot holes galore, characters w/ multiple personality disorder, incoherent plot and so on. Didn’t watch 6 & 7, only caught a few eps now in preparation for s8. 

[T and A]

4 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

You guys are very generous.

There were always issues, or warning signs, even in series 1. But pretty minor stuff, a couple or nitpicks, nothing huge. I really disliked series 2. Then 3 was a bit better, despite grandpa Tywin & Arya - I know most love those scenes but I truly hated them. I really didn’t like s4 either... was s4 when we got Talisa? And Jaime and Cersei in the sept? Yikes. Another fan favourite that I complained a lot about was the battle at the end of s4. Sweet summer child that I was, because now, comparing it to 803 that was perfection. Even if it was already dark, it wasn’t anywhere near the pitch-black-can’t-see-a-damn-thing that was 803. But still thought s3 & 4 were better than 2. But the actual shark-jumping that made me believe it would never ever get back on track was s5 w/ all the stupidity and plot holes galore, characters w/ multiple personality disorder, incoherent plot and so on. Didn’t watch 6 & 7, only caught a few eps now in preparation for s8. 

Talisa was introduced in Season 2. Regarding the battle in Season 4: do you mean the battle at the Wall against the Wildlings? Because if you complain about that battle, boy, I don't even know what to say. It was one of the best battles in cinema history.

[Tsarko]

For me it was this last episode, S08E03. Til now I have always managed to rationalize stupid stuff that was happening via incredible mental gymnastics and hope of a satisfying ending. But after this episode I don't think there is any hope left. I don't think worthy ending is possible after all the damage done in The Long Night. Even if they somehow bring back the Others and do something good with Bran's story, It won't be able to fix all the stupidity til now. Looking back, I have no idea how I didn't reach breaking point back in season 5.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, The One Who Kneels said:

Maybe that's what the whole White Walker plotline was actually meant to be. All this time we've been trying to take it seriously when the show was really trying to be an extended homage to Army of Darkness. 

I'd say the wights were depicted rather accurately in the first three seasons, were they not? They didn't get much screen time, to be sure, but when they did show they were undoubtedly slow zombies, right? Until we got to season 4 and had literal walking skeletons and then later inconsistent fast and slow zombies.

5 hours ago, T and A said:

Talisa was introduced in Season 2. Regarding the battle in Season 4: do you mean the battle at the Wall against the Wildlings? Because if you complain about that battle, boy, I don't even know what to say. It was one of the best battles in cinema history.

You are not all that aware of cinema history, are you ;-)?

1 hour ago, Tsarko said:

For me it was this last episode, S08E03. Til now I have always managed to rationalize stupid stuff that was happening via incredible mental gymnastics and hope of a satisfying ending. But after this episode I don't think there is any hope left. I don't think worthy ending is possible after all the damage done in The Long Night. Even if they somehow bring back the Others and do something good with Bran's story, It won't be able to fix all the stupidity til now. Looking back, I have no idea how I didn't reach breaking point back in season 5.

Well, this is was I meant when I said the re-watch value of this travesty will quickly fall to zero. While you are watching a TV show you can cling to the idea that the end is going to be good (although that's never going to be the case if a continuous story is told and most of the episodes are bad and make sense - but people like to fool themselves and justify and rationalize why they spend their time watching crap) or at least that there will be a satisfying twist at the end, some sort of acceptable closure. Also, one wants to know how the story ends even if the presentation of the story sucks.

But all that is going to disappear once the show is over. I mean, a lot of shows carried by suspense and twists - think of, say, 24 - have only limited re-watch value, but a show like GoT where the writing, directing, and acting (the latter also due to the directing) steadily declined, where great and powerful twists were replaced by nonsensical twists and plots solely done to show of favorite actors of the show runners, you really have to want to wallow in shit to actually go through the series again. I mean, I'd feel like Cersei during her walk of shame or Shireen on the way to her pyre.

And this doesn't have all that much to do with the fact that the show basically has nothing to do with the books. It has to do with the fact that it simply isn't good writing, and no good show on any level aside from special effects, setting, and, perhaps, wardrobe (although I don't care about the latter).

[divica]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

You are not all that aware of cinema history, are you ;-)?

It was one of the best in tv history.

It was consistent, full of action, good use of cgi, shot at dark, no logic flaws…

It may not have had the epic moments that BoB or hardhome had, but in a way it might be the best battle in GOT...

[Dragons Are Real]

Honestly, we bought every season box set up to and including last season, but we're currently discussing whether they're worth keeping.  After season two we rewatched one and two.  After three we rewatched all three.  After four we rewatched again.  After five we didn't bother digging out the old seasons, just binged the season and saw how stupid it was in rapid succession.  Now?  Nothing.  We bought the boxes out of habit, but since five haven't even watched them ourselves.  We just passed them around to relatives that don't have HBO.  

With what they're doing this season, I have a really, REALLY hard time believing we're going to be left with anything worth a rewatch.  And most likely, any sequels/prequels will be a hard nope from the people that just got curb stomped for supporting the show to begin with.

[T and A]

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You are not all that aware of cinema history, are you ;-)?

I actually wanted to write televison. No idea why I wrote cinema . Maybe I was about to write cinematographic. And as someone who watches at least 2 Movies every month in cinema, ows over 500 movies, and has built a private cinema in his house, I am very aware of cinema .

But even then, the battle in Season 4 was very decent, even for cinema quality. Sure, not LotR or private Ryan battle, but decent nevertheless. And definitively up there in television history. 

[Cas Stark]

I definitely think that ep 803 has gutted the rewatch value of the show, and I can't imagine that a big battle against Cersei where people die in service to #gameofthrones will make the previous seasons of misdirection and talk of sacrifice and white walkers anything but silly.

Perhaps it can be made into a drinking game, when a character rants about X or does Y that later will prove to be totally pointless.  Mel talks prophecy, drink!  Dany picks up Dothraki followers, drink!  Jon talks white walkers, drink!  Other than mock watching, there is no reason for it.

[sweetsunray]

I binge watched until S3 to catch up with S4. By that time I also started reading. I actually believed there would be a Ros POV in the books And though in part Arya's aCoK book story confused me in some respect, because it was different, it also clarified much better what Robb and his army actually had been doing (S2-S3 war events were a mess). By the ending of S4 I was at the end of aSoS. And I remember I felt as if S4 certainly did not have that same umph as the prior 3 seasons had, especially the KL story started to feel off, despite Joffrey's death and Tyrion's trial. I knew people were malcontent over the absence of the Tysha reveal and Jaime making up with Cersei, but I had no way of knowing yet what an impact that would have on Jaime's arc and Tyrion's.  Caught up with all the books by start of s5, and then there was the s4 first several episodes leak, which I watched.

And for me the show jumped the shark when LF dropped Sweetrobin off with Royce, took Sansa in a carriage on a trip, had Sansa brush off Brienne, and then some fight by Brienne with Pod against some soldiers in the RL, suddenly making the RL and its forests no bigger than a Belgian sunday trip "forest" you can walk in an hour and Brienne telling Podrick they'd go around Moat Cailin. Sure, Porne was bad, really bad as well, but it was that episode with Brienne back in the RL and going around Moat Cailing that imploded the world they tried to built and where characters became stupider and dumber by the episode.

That was nowhere near jetpacking as happened later, but for me the whole picture of this big-ass world filled with people started to collapse on itself. I really hoped they could still make something out of Sansa's story, despite me absolutely believing she would end up marrying Ramsay from the moment LF mentioned it. If you're going to cut corners, you can still make something out of it.... but no: it was plotzee. Brienne staring at a candle for several episodes, after going around Moat Cailin, and Stannis's debacle was the last nail in the coffin for me. A lot of ranters still said Arya's arc in Braavos was still faithful, but to me it was the most shallow interpretations of the HoBaW and Arya as a caricature badass.

Strangely enough I sort of enjoy S8. The reason is exactly because I have long accepted they are going to do illogical stuff, going against book- AND s5-s8 show-character, and rushing stuff with plotzee to get their bullet points done, and the faster this mockery is over and done with, the better. Now, we're at NK ticked off the same way Porne, RL, Tyrells and Freys got ticked off the bullet list - done, easy peasy. There has never been much pay-off to any of the stuff they set up, except for Ramsay.... they milked that for as long as they possibly could. 

[Dreadscythe95]

17 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

The treatment of the southern great houses and Cersei's incredible spike in competence was the moment I seriously started to lose investment. 

Olenna's death scene was fantastic in a vacuum but in order to get it they needed to retcon practically everyone involved. Cersei just isn't capable enough to overthrow house Tyrell nor should she have been in a position to do so. Likewise the Tyrells just aren't the weaklings season 7 bewilderingly tries to make us believe they are. They alone defeated Robert and all the way back in season 2 their backing instantly made Renly a very strong contender for the throne.

Cersei's prime trait is her relative incompetence but by wiping out two great houses in two episodes she very suddenly becomes the most competent ruler in the show. It took the extremely competent Tywin three seasons to topple two great houses, one of them being house Tully. In contrast the supposedly inept Cersei defeats two great houses in a mere two episodes and it aren't second rate houses either. The North didn't defeat Aegon like Dorne, and the Riverlands don't have the largest army and the second largest amount of wealth like the Tyrells. 

Worst of all is that Cersei's victory completely undermines the brilliant ending of season 6. The Green Trial was a typical Cersei move. It was solely concerned with getting power and not at all with how to keep it. The bombing removed all her enemies in Kings Landing but logically should have robbed her of everything outside it. Without the Tyrells King's Landing starves and their sizable forces joining Cersei's enemies would be a gigantic drain from Cersei's army. Even the Westerlands shouldn't be completely loyal anymore considering Cersei bombed Kevan and pulled a Wildfire stunt Jaime sacrificed his reputation to stop. With season 6's ending Kings Landing should be starving, surrounded by enemies  and with a lot less forces to defend it. Instead Cersei just casually steamrolls all opposition because its easier for the writers if she does. 

And the less said about the Martells the better. Poor Doran. 

This post 100%.

Justice for The Tyrells and The Martells.

Oh and The Tullys!

[T and A]

Look, everything has been said here. But I can't reisist not to give my two pennys into this. As a book fan and as a show fan. 

We should be able to have a polite and civilized conversation here. Naming people dumb, morons and other insulting words, who can't defend themself, because they are not present, isn't very brave, smart nor correct. Also, if you do it, at least have the guts to not make it anonymously. Put your real name into it. Write those peoples emails, letters. Let them know, how you personally feel about it. It is a very coward move to insult people on the internet, in an anonym way. 

The people here are mainly book fans. Fair enough. A lot of people here complain that the last episode was bad. Also fair enough. I wasn't a big fan of some parts of the episode too. But keep something in your mind, before you criticize: The show is the show, the books are the books. You won't find on the show, what you miss from the books so desperately. The show won't fill the gap, the books may have left. And it is not fair to expect from a TV show that. They can't possibly deliver. The show stated from the moment, they introduced the NK, that he represents death in the show. The showrunners made in every interview clear, that he won't have a personality. He won't be able to talk. He just represents death in the show. What personality does death have? What could he possibly say? And they went with this. How do you kill someone like that? The prophecies you might add, they all stated that Jon and Daenery are the chosen one. In the show, those prophecies were made by Melissandre. She was continuously wrong in the show. Again, I am only talking about the show. Not the books. You just have to forget them for a moment. I'll come to that later, don't worry. Jon and Daenerys were presumably the princ/es that was promised. It is mentioned by Melissandre, as far as I remeber, in season 5,6 and 7. She said in season 7, that she fullfilled the prophecy, she brought together Ice and Fire. Which is what happend. Without Jon (who was resurected by Melisandre) the Boltons weren't defeated. Arya would never have went to Winterfell. Without Jon, Danerys would have never gave up the war, to go North and fight the NK. Without Daenerys Army, Winterfell would have been doomed. Yes, Arya was the one, to actually end everything, but without the Unsullied and the united northeners, she would not even have a chance alone in Winterfell. Let alone, that it would have been the Boltons, and Arya would have been either dead or somewhere in the south. So, why does it matter that Jon has to actually kill the NK in the show? Did I liked it that Arya did it. No, I didn't. But does this ruin the show for me? No, not really. One scene, doesn't ruin an entire series for me. Then again, and now I come back to the books: I seperate those two storys. I don't watch the show, and complain if something is different in the books. If you feel that way, and I completely understand that, Game of Thrones is indeed definitively not your cup of tea. You really should not watch it. It is clear, from Season 5 that this series is not a faithfull adaptation of the books. Yes, the showrunners know the (planed) ending of the series, as was stated several time by GRRM and the showrunners themself. But they don't have to stick to it. And most importantly, the journey is what matters. If the journey is different, than the result won't matter. As was recently stated by GRRM, the end may be the same. Maybe not. Who knows? The point that I try to make is the following: Don't judge the Events of a show by comparing it to books, not yet released, and then insult the showrunners (who you don't know and who haven't comited any real crime) for doing what they think is the best for their show. You won't be satisfied if you are looking for books and search for them on television. You won't find them there. You may find those on a library. Some day. Maybe. 

I had a great time here, discussing the books with you guys. Had some great discussions. But I just don't enjoy the tone here anymore. It has become vicious, mean and just like any random 9GAG comentary. 

[YoungGriff89]

35 minutes ago, T and A said:

I actually wanted to write televison. No idea why I wrote cinema . Maybe I was about to write cinematographic. And as someone who watches at least 2 Movies every month in cinema, ows over 500 movies, and has built a private cinema in his house, I am very aware of cinema .

But even then, the battle in Season 4 was very decent, even for cinema quality. Sure, not LotR or private Ryan battle, but decent nevertheless. And definitively up there in television history. 

Honestly if you didn't watch the battle on the wall when the episode was in IMAX I feel bad for you.  The translation from TV to IMAX screen was really good.  I wish they would have brought Neil Marshall back for the battle of the bastards and the battle at Winterfell.  Given the budget and the story development that it actually had to juggle, it's certainly one of the best battle sequences I've seen.

As far as a breaking point for me when it comes to Game of Thrones, I don't know how are we defining breaking point?  I've kind of hate watched the show since The Children, but I haven't ever been so turned off by the show that I just can't watch it anymore.  I've come close, morbid curiosity has kept me tuning in.  As for The Children, I had scattered issues with season four up to this point, but this entire damn episode is just one big crapshoot.  From the shoddy camera work beyond the wall (the whole beginning with Jon's dramatic walk was literally dizzying in IMAX as just one example), the editing nightmare that is Brienne vs the Hound, the lack of a Tysha reveal after it was setup, the crap with the skeletons and the fireballs, Bloodraven having two eyes, no Lady Stoneheart, it just all irritated me.  That was probably where I first knew I was going to fall out of love with this show sooner rather than later.  

Then season five happened, and I certainly hated those big moments we all have talked about ad nauseam but I didn't hate the season as much as most people seemed to.  Dance of Dragons was a good episode, Mother's Mercy was also a really good episode.  I want to say Hardhome was a good episode based on the really strong ending sequence, but I've seen the whole episode at least three times all the way through I can't remember a single thing that happened in the episode besides that.  So it probably doesn't deserve to be called a great episode overall.  Season five just felt like a bad season of Game of Thrones.  Then Season six came along and I watched it through one big, perpetual facepalm.  Didn't even feel like a bad season of Game of Thrones, just felt like an entirely different crappy medieval show with a ton of fan service for a book series thrown in.  Season six as a whole was really the point where I figured I probably wouldn't re-watch the entire series again or recommend anybody who asked me about the show watch it beyond season four.