Jump to content
Elayis

What was your personal GoT breaking point?

Recommended Posts

The latest episode will in hindsight, probably become what I consider to be my breaking point.

The best thing to potentially come out of this whole trainwreck is that it might take D&D's credibility as "good writers" with it.
D&D has gotten their fair share of criticism over the years. Some of it is valid, some is nitpicky and some is deliberately obtuse.

Throughout all of the show, I've been able to look past the mistakes, plot holes and nonsensical writing, mostly thanks to suspension of disbelief but also because no matter how bad the writing has been, I've been able to justify what's happening in my head, even if it doesn't always make complete sense. Episode 6 last season with the wight hunt put this to the test, but I managed to justify what I saw on the screen...if just barely.

Episode 4 "The Last of the Starks" this season finally broke me. There's too many plotholes, the writing is too lazy, the plot feels too forced and contrived, and some of the characters don't even behave like they "should" or once did, I feel like I don't even know them anymore. After watching it I felt hollow and sad, even cheated. I've spent so much time watching the show, making predictions and discussing the universe of Planetos, and I absolutely love this show, at least what it once was, but now I can't shake the feeling that it's been all for naught. A waste of time. A cruel joke.

I'm not a book-reader, but I've been thinking about reading them after the show ends. I currently couldn't give a damn about the books.If I was a book-reader, I would probably feel even more cheated than I currently do, and I probably wouldn't give a damn about the last books either. No, this episode has single handedly damn near killed my interest in the entire franchise. Something I thought impossible only a few weeks ago.

For everyone's sake, be it the large fanbase, D&D themselves, GRRM, everyone who's part of creating the show, and the franchise as a whole, I really hope that this episode was "deliberately bad", in order to make the next episode so much better, and that there's a twist (or several) that will ultimately pull the show back on track, right before the end.

If the show continues down the path that E4 has laid out however (and sadly, this scenario seems more likely at this point), Game of Thrones and aSoIaF in general, won't go out with a bang, nor be remembered as something amazing that even future generations will enjoy and be awestruck by. It will instead be remembered as something that began great, but ended with a quiet whimper, before ultimately being forgotten...

Fingers crossed that I'm wrong. I have been before...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

It seems S08E04 seems to be the breaking point for the IMDB crowd. All episodes receive between 8 and 9.9 but this one has a paltry 6.8.

Many issues come together here:

  • The feeling of teleportation with the shortened seasons.
  • Cheesy scenes (Gendry to Arya, Jaime and Brienne)
  • Mediocre Euron coming out of nowhere
  • Unsatisfying closures (no mention of NK at all, Ghost just leaving)
  • Cutting corners to rush the plot (Rhaegal's death)
  • Ridiculous scenarios (parlay with Cersei and Cersei not killing Dany & co)
  • Inconsistencies (Unsullied and Dothraki have mostly survived, they were invisible at the end of E03 inside the castle)

I guess I'm relatively mild for this episode because I'm past the breaking point already and mostly follow the winds of winter where they take me. I'm rather amazed people break on this "mundane" episode instead of the horrible wrapup of the NK with ninja Arya.

Perhaps it's just that the episode feels "empty" and viewers take off their rose-tinted glasses?

 

Edited by Squall

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Squall said:

Perhaps it's just that the episode feels "empty" and viewers take off their rose-tinted glasses?

Daenerys is a huge fan favorite, and this entire episode is basically just a rushed, contrived assassination of her entire character and storyarc.
I'm pretty sure that's, if not the main reason, then definitely one of the reasons for the lower ratings. In addition to the episode being full of plotholes (don't get me started on Deus Ex Euron and his Ballistae) and lazy writing in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

I'm not a book-reader, but I've been thinking about reading them after the show ends. I currently couldn't give a damn about the books.If I was a book-reader, I would probably feel even more cheated than I currently do, and I probably wouldn't give a damn about the last books either. No, this episode has single handedly damn near killed my interest in the entire franchise. Something I thought impossible only a few weeks ago.

I'm not quite here yet but I am definitely.........exhausted from this whole story tbh. I need a break after this season is over lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Squall said:

It seems S08E04 seems to be the breaking point for the IMDB crowd. All episodes receive between 8 and 9.9 but this one has a paltry 6.8.

Many issues come together here:

  • The feeling of teleportation with the shortened seasons.
  • Cheesy scenes (Gendry to Arya, Jaime and Brienne)
  • Mediocre Euron coming out of nowhere
  • Unsatisfying closures (no mention of NK at all, Ghost just leaving)
  • Cutting corners to rush the plot (Rhaegal's death)
  • Ridiculous scenarios (parlay with Cersei and Cersei not killing Dany & co)
  • Inconsistencies (Unsullied and Dothraki have mostly survived, they were invisible at the end of E03 inside the castle)

I guess I'm relatively mild for this episode because I'm past the breaking point already and mostly follow the winds of winter where they take me. I'm rather amazed people break on this "mundane" episode instead of the horrible wrapup of the NK with ninja Arya.

Perhaps it's just that the episode feels "empty" and viewers take off their rose-tinted glasses?

 

I must say that I am surprised that you are amazed. Arya is a fan favorite, and fan favorites getting and doing cool and important actions seldom generate as much "WtF?" as equal actions done by less liked characters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Lion of the West said:

I must say that I am surprised that you are amazed. Arya is a fan favorite.

I never liked Arya who seems to be coming out of nowhere doing her thing. But I think you're right here, she'll do cool things with plot armour. Though it borders on ridiculousness.

19 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Daenerys is a huge fan favorite.

I didn't take into account the people rooting for characters like they do for football players. You're absolutely right she's heading straight for the chopping block. I always found her a better conqueror than administrator but dangling a death sentence above her head is heavy handed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 12:40 PM, Squall said:

It seems S08E04 seems to be the breaking point for the IMDB crowd. All episodes receive between 8 and 9.9 but this one has a paltry 6.8.

Many issues come together here:

  • The feeling of teleportation with the shortened seasons.
  • Cheesy scenes (Gendry to Arya, Jaime and Brienne)
  • Mediocre Euron coming out of nowhere
  • Unsatisfying closures (no mention of NK at all, Ghost just leaving)
  • Cutting corners to rush the plot (Rhaegal's death)
  • Ridiculous scenarios (parlay with Cersei and Cersei not killing Dany & co)
  • Inconsistencies (Unsullied and Dothraki have mostly survived, they were invisible at the end of E03 inside the castle)

I guess I'm relatively mild for this episode because I'm past the breaking point already and mostly follow the winds of winter where they take me. I'm rather amazed people break on this "mundane" episode instead of the horrible wrapup of the NK with ninja Arya. 

Perhaps it's just that the episode feels "empty" and viewers take off their rose-tinted glasses?

 

I completly agree with you. I posted in other topics how strange it was for this ep to be rated so much lower than others when it has basically the same problems other eps had.

The general idea is that ep3 was so bad that people stoped defending the series plotholes. That now they no longer defend the inconsisties we see on screen.

And I think ep3 is a real failure on imdb. That ep should be a 9.9 and it will be the lowest ep before season 8. Given the importance of the ep it says a lot about how people think of it and the series as a whole now...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is always a tipping point.  A point where cracks and flaws that were always apparent are no longer ignored.

We reached it.  I would have thought it should have happened long ago, but at the latest with the stupid wight hunt last year, or the terrible rushed 'romance' of Jon and Dany, or the dark and terrible battle of the short, story killing night.  But, it happened instead with the ep. 4. The floodgates are opening now.

Based on their past performance, where poor storytelling has been saved by spectacle and battles, it seems that this formula no longer works, and so I would guess the show is going to go down as a disappointment.  There is no reason to think the writing will magically improve in the final two episodes, after all, they've had two years already and this is what we got.  LOL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Squall said:

I didn't take into account the people rooting for characters like they do for football players. You're absolutely right she's heading straight for the chopping block. I always found her a better conqueror than administrator but dangling a death sentence above her head is heavy handed.

Well, I can elaborate on why this episode was my breaking point.
I posted this earlier today in the Rant&Rave-thread, but it fits in right here as well.
-----

Now, I can only speak for myself, but given that I'm part of the (increasingly) large group of people who's rated this episode a "1" (first time ever for me), I'm probably not entirely alone in thinking this. The gist of the matter is this: Are you believing what the show is telling you or not?

Rant incoming in 3....2.....1....

First thing's first: Questionable writing, lack of logic, glaring plotholes and characters that aren't always behaving as they should is nothing new to this show. 
With that said however, I have always been able to look past these issues, because ultimately, there has always been the tiniest spark of logic, or hint of a possibility, a maybe, or viable excuse, or ultimately because of good ol' suspension of disbelief. Basically I've always been able to believe what the story is telling me, even if I sometimes have to convince myself first, no matter how stupid, contrived or illogical it seems at first.

Case and point:
- Arya waltzing around in Braavos like she owned the place before getting stabbed in the gut multiple times by the Waif and ultimately surviving the whole ordeal. 
OK, so this was rough. I remember this all too well, most of us where convinced that there was a twist, but ultimately nope, it was just Arya being an idiot and ending up lucky. Ultimately, I can believe what I see here, even if I don't really like it. Maybe Arya is waltzing around in Braavos because she doesn't expect the Waif to find her, it's a big city after all. Maybe the adrenaline kept her going after she fled, and evidently Lady Crane managed to patch her up with her previously unknown healing-skills. Unlikely, but seemingly not impossible, because Arya did survive. Or you know, R'hllor because Nightking...
Ultimately, it's stupid, but I can still believe it. 

- Euron fleet finding Yaras fleet  and then appearing at Casterly Rock shortly after.
Euron seemingly has a radar and a cloaking device, further proven by the latest episode, but back in S7, while unlikely, I didn't find it entirely impossible for him to find Yara and assault them in the middle of the night. Maybe he really expected them to sail to Dorne and maybe he had scouted out her position. It's not entirely impossible, I'm willing to buy it for the sake of suspense. 
The fact that he later shows up to ambush Daenerys fleet at Casterly Rock seems unlikely, but it's not impossible. We don't much time has passed, and maybe his fleet sailed faster than whatever fleet was carrying the Unsullied to Casterly Rock. They are ironborn after all, sailing is what they do.
Again, this doesn't all make total sense, but there's enough "maybe's" in there for me to accept and believe what the show is telling me.

- Arya being the one to deal the killing blow to the Nightking.
This has already been proven to be a classic case of subverting the expected just for the sake of it, but while it ultimately is a big "fuck you" to the whole AA-prophecy and removes a big part of Jon's story-arc, having Arya kill the Nightking is, to all intents and purposes, fully possible. She's a trained assassin, evidently is good at sneaking, had the right tool for the job, and there was plenty of hints in advance that she might end up being the one to do the deed. Now I didn't necessarily like it, but I was willing to believe it when I saw it. At least they didn't have Hotpie waltzing out of the Godswood and stab the NK, that would've been impossible for me to buy.

- The ditch around Winterfell disappearing between episodes 3 and 4 this season.
Yeah this is just a lazy continuity error, but ultimately, this is something that I can easily ignore due to suspension of disbelief. It's not a major part of the story, just something that came across as dumb.

Now, this is where it get's troublesome. 
What happens if the show tells or show you something that you simply can't believe. A plothole so big, or a character behaving so out of character, that no matter how hard to you try to justify what the show just told you, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself of what happened made any sort of sense, by grabbing at every maybe, what if, possibility, or spark of logic but still coming up short handed, and when not even suspension of disbelief is enough to convince you of what you just saw?
Then there is only one excuse for what's happening left: because the script said so / because the plot demanded it.
When this is the only thing that's left to convince you of what's happening, then it's time to tap out. It's game over. 

Which brings me to Season 8, Episode 4: "The Last of the Starks"...
Several times this episode, I found myself thinking "wait...what?", after seeing either a glaringly large plothole and/or a character acting so out of character that the character essentially get's ruined, and ultimately, these times, for the first time ever, I couldn't justify and convince myself of what the show tried to tell me. I just couldn't.

Case and point:
- Bronn's appearance and scene with Tyrion and Jamie.
OK, what was that? We've heard Bronn continuously smacktalk Cersei during the last season. At the very last episode last season, we see Bronn having a moment with Jamie while preparing the defenses of KL against Daenerys army, and later he has a tender moment with Tyrion. Cut to this episode (which quite frankly, isn't supposed to occur that long after S7E7, like what, a month?), and all of a sudden he's punching Tyrion in the face and making death threats to the Lannister-brothers. Let's just ignore the fact that the brothers have no reason to not send someone to hunt him down at this point. Bronn's always been a self-centered sellsword who's in it for the money, but ultimately very likable and he's clearly had an interest in the Lannister-brothers which wasn't merely centered around gold. Suddenly he's a dislikable twat. I remember feeling nervous about the prospect of Drogon burning him to cinders last season, but after this scene I couldn't care less about his ultimate fate. Way to ruin a character in a single, short scene. The only reason for this scene seems to be to set up Bronn as some sort of hero, or to simply make us care less about his upcoming demise, and that means this scene simply serves as a plot-device, because it sure doesn't make sense. 

- Euron ambushing Daenerys and the magic ballistas.
I'm not gonna delve too much on this scene, but this is probably the biggest plothole in the entire series.
OK, so I can buy that Euron for some reason expected Daenerys and her fleet to sail to Dragonstone, and has been waiting to ambush her for a couple of days now. It's what he'd do, I can buy that.
What I can't buy however, is that how Daenerys and her dragons, on a clear day, didn't see Euron's fleet. And I don't buy the writers excuse about her "having forgot about" the fleet for a single second, because that would mean that everyone else in her team, had also forgotten about it. This is writing at it's worst, this is them defending their own bad writing, and instead turning it into a plothole.
I also will never be able to believe the idea of those ballistas being nearly as accurate and powerful as modern guns. 
They are mounted on boats who are rocking in the water, shooting at an airborne target several hundred meters away, and they...instantly hit 3 out of 3 shots, and reload in a couple of seconds. 
Rhaegal's death was a plotdevice, pure and simple, meant to cause shock in the audience and further anger in Daenerys. The entire scene is utterly unbelievable from a narrative standpoint, and it only ever occurred because the plot demanded it.
And Qyburn has singlehandedly redefined warfare on both ground- and sea-level in Westeros for all time to come.
Someone give this man a medal and put him on the throne already, he's smarter than Tyrion, Davos, Varys and Cersei combined. 

- Jamie's redemption arc blown to pieces because of...reasons.
I don't care if Jamie is ultimately going back to King's Landing so that he can kill Cersei, that's not the point.
The point is that the redemption arc he's been on for several years is all but destroyed the moment he admits to himself (and Brienne) that he is hateful. His entire arc the last couple of seasons has been centered about him trying to become a better, more honorable man, and doing the right thing for the betterment of the realm. Suddenly, all that, everything he has suffered and fought for, is blown out the window the instant he hears that Cersei is in danger? Jamie going back "a hateful man" to Cersei at this point makes no god damn sense and ruins his entire redemption arc. It's a cheap way for the writers to have him head back to KL for no apparent reason, which means it fits in the "he goes back because the script said so/we didn't know what else to do "-category.

- Daenerys becoming Viserys in a single scene.
Oh Khaleesi, not like this...
I'm gonna admit that Daenerys is one of my favorites, but that I would've had no issues with her slowly turning into Viserys and then ultimately the "mad queen" and ending as a tragic hero (or villain) - if there had been any real buildup towards this and if the writing had been good. 
Sadly it isn't, and there isn't really any buildup to all of this. Daenerys has always had a vibe of "will she wont she" around her, but ultimately she's been shown to do more good than bad, with her intentions always being good, but not always logical.
On occasion ruthless and callous, but never evil or insane. 
Season 7 in particular, painted her in a good light, where her arc basically revolved around putting her obsession with the IT on hold, in order to go and do the right thing and fight the war that "actually" matters, alongside her lover/nephew. By the end of S7, it seemed that the mad part of her had finally succumbed to the compassionate part. Yay?
Not so much, S8 rolls up and suddenly she's all "but muh throne" again, despite it having only been mere weeks since season 7 ended.
Why? Because.
Then having her suddenly ditch the one common thread she's had in 7 seasons (protector of the downtrodden/mhysa), and basically do a turn that is so sharp it's immersion breaking, where she decides to throw all of her morals and values out the window during the course of a single episode comes across as contrived, forced, and illogical. 
I'm genuinely not buying it, everything about Daenerys arc this episode screams "the script caused it to happen/made her do it, because we need her to become a villain before the end."
The mere notion that she, the mother of dragons, the savior of winterfell, the last Targaryen (and a great beauty to boot), would somehow become isolated and lonely during the great victory feast is silly beyond words.
Is no one in WF interested in her at all? Of course not, because the script says so...

This episode is the first one ever, where the show tried to sell me something that I ultimately couldn't buy.
And it did it several times in one single episode! That's why I, and presumably so many others, gave this episode a rating of 1, and why it's currently by far, the most disliked episode of GoT ever.
 

Rant over, thanks for reading. :commie:

Edited by MinscS2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

There is always a tipping point.  A point where cracks and flaws that were always apparent are no longer ignored.

We reached it.  I would have thought it should have happened long ago, but at the latest with the stupid wight hunt last year, or the terrible rushed 'romance' of Jon and Dany, or the dark and terrible battle of the short, story killing night.  But, it happened instead with the ep. 4. The floodgates are opening now.

Based on their past performance, where poor storytelling has been saved by spectacle and battles, it seems that this formula no longer works, and so I would guess the show is going to go down as a disappointment.  There is no reason to think the writing will magically improve in the final two episodes, after all, they've had two years already and this is what we got.  LOL.

I actually think the scenes with jon and danny were what saved season 7 because most of the other things I remembre of that season were really bad.

Like winterfell after jon left-really bad, reunions between the starks-really bad, KL- really bad with no consequences for cersei burning the sept, episode behond the Wall-mostly really bad...

The big moments of season 7 were just the field of fire, jon and danny interacting and some moments in the final ep where almost all characters were present and the ww were presented to everybody. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, divica said:

I actually think the scenes with jon and danny were what saved season 7 because most of the other things I remembre of that season were really bad.

Like winterfell after jon left-really bad, reunions between the starks-really bad, KL- really bad with no consequences for cersei burning the sept, episode behond the Wall-mostly really bad...

The big moments of season 7 were just the field of fire, jon and danny interacting and some moments in the final ep where almost all characters were present and the ww were presented to everybody. 

Jon and Dany's romance to me was SO awkward, the show should  have given up on it, it has never been believable to me, the actors have no chemistry, better that they be allies, maybe they were going to marry as a strategy, but weren't love, and then when the Targ history of Jon comes out, he decides he can't do it, or whatever.

I agree the Stark reunions have all been pretty terrible, especially Arya and Jon, the one that should have been the best and most emotional.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I'm back after a while because I was naive enough to think the show would at least try to correct the shitty tragectory it had taken in season 4, and boy did that come bite me in the butt.

Anyway, my breaking point (at least the first of a very long series), was Jaime raping Cersei in the Sept. This is when I understood that the writers had absolutely no understanding of these characters and were willing to break them for shock value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Season 5.

The quality of the writing, dialogue and characterisation really took a nosedive that season and has steadily gotten worse since. People were probably holding out hope that things might still come together but here we are in the home stretch and the very things the so called 'book snobs' were critical of since season 5 especially are just as bad (or worse) now resulting in GoT receiving the sort of criticism that it should have gotten three seasons ago. Really, the only thing propping the show up since season 5 has been the big budget.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Jon and Dany's romance to me was SO awkward, the show should  have given up on it, it has never been believable to me, the actors have no chemistry, better that they be allies, maybe they were going to marry as a strategy, but weren't love, and then when the Targ history of Jon comes out, he decides he can't do it, or whatever.

I agree the Stark reunions have all been pretty terrible, especially Arya and Jon, the one that should have been the best and most emotional.

I dont agree. I think it was rushed like someone needed to tell us they were in love. But their interactions were good and showed they had a growing relationship… Between danny allowing him to dig dragonglass, to the drawings in the cave, she asking him how she should act with her dragons and doing what he said, the dragon scene could have been handled better, danny's reaction when jon says he wants to go in the wight hunt, they talking about danny's infertility and jon wanting to be honnest in the dragonpit...

I didn t like the scene in beyhond the Wall where jon kneels after danny saying she would go north and fight...

If instead of having tyrion and davos saying they were in love we had a scene between them before jon leaving where they clearly showed they were in love it would be better… But overall were good interactions that showed a growing relationship. It just lacked more time...

 

Edited by divica

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/2/2019 at 11:52 AM, Cas Stark said:

I started ranting about season 3 and "Talisa" the feminist nurse, the lack of Northern lords and how Robb and Cat's story seemed to have been diminished, but the show was still very good at that point, and very good still in season 4, despite that it had some very stupid plot lapses in that season, but many high points.

Season 5, between Stannis and his burning his daughter when he's in walking distance of Winterfell, LOL, the crazy blue/black filters they started using, and Sansa's marriage to Ramsay which rendered Sansa, Roose, the Vale, and Littlefinger all mentally challenged was when I mostly gave up that the show would ever care about plot again, and ever be good at plot continuinty without Martin's books.  And it's been downhill since then.

Almost the same, but season 4 was starting show some hints of what was to come (Sandor and Arya coming to the Gates and nobody recognizing the Hound or trying to find out who they were, the duel between Brienne and Sandor etc.). Dorne in Season 5 was also crucial to my breaking point which finally happened with the Sansagate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Anyway, my breaking point (at least the first of a very long series), was Jaime raping Cersei in the Sept. This is when I understood that the writers had absolutely no understanding of these characters and were willing to break them for shock value.

That happens in the book too, mate! A Storm of Swords, chapter 62 (Jaime VII).

Edited by adiman83

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

That happens in the book too, mate! A Storm of Swords, chapter 62 (Jaime VII).

Edited just now

It's not rape in the books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

It's not rape in the books.

Well, she does say no to him! Cersei was worried the septons will walk in on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×