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Elayis

What was your personal GoT breaking point?

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Season 5's final episode was the final nail in the coffin for me, after increasing dissatisfaction over the season.  I'm no "Stannis the Mannis" fanboy but I did think they wildly mishandled the character (Stephen Dillane saying he didn't understand his character's actions much of the time didn't help change my mind) and Dorne was an utter mess. It became too painful to watch, knowing that these choices were obviously considered good ones by D&D when they were obviously not. They didn't stick the landing for that episode or that season, and I suspected they wouldn't stick the landing for the series. So I stopped watching.

 

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1 hour ago, adiman83 said:

Well, she does say no to him! Cersei was worried the septons will walk in on them.

Yeah but she also says

Quote

Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, " yes, like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." 

I mean if that ain't consent I don't what is.

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12 minutes ago, HairGrowsBack said:

Yeah but she also says

Quote

Hurry," she was whispering now, "quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime." Her hands helped guide him. "Yes," Cersei said as he thrust, " yes, like that, yes, I have you, you're home now, you're home now, you're home." 

I mean if that ain't consent I don't what is.

At the point when she said "yes," Jaime was already undoing her clothes etc. -- if the septons had walked in on them, it would have been too late before Cersei said, "yes." And Jaime was already doing a bit too much in the case that she actually wound up saying "no." But, I do think that her eventually saying "yes" is key to the scene -- it shows just how messed up their relationship is, that they have sex in front of their son's corpse.

I think it's more insulting of the directors and writers to pretend that Cersei was apparently never raped on the show, and also not show the selfdestructive nature of their relationship -- there's no slow breakdown, and they have loving sex in the White Sword Tower at the end of Season 4.

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Posted (edited)

Tbh I thought season 2 was a bit rubbish: we had Quarth, ahem, Carth, and the stupid empty dragon-stealing plot there, Harrenhal degenerating into a series of badly written Tywin-Arya fanfiction scenes and the beginning of the dumbification of Jon Snow and his transmogrification into JonShow, the lumbering doofus we all know and love. 

Edited by Nothing Has Changed

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1 minute ago, Vaith said:

At the point when she said "yes," Jaime was already undoing her clothes etc. -- if the septons had walked in on them, it would have been too late before Cersei said, "yes." And Jaime was already doing a bit too much in the case that she actually wound up saying "no." But, I do think that her eventually saying "yes" is key to the scene -- it shows just how messed up their relationship is, that they have sex in front of their son's corpse.

I think it's more insulting of the directors and writers to pretend that Cersei was apparently never raped on the show, and also not show the selfdestructive nature of their relationship -- there's no slow breakdown, and they have loving sex in the White Sword Tower at the end of Season 4.

Yeah I can see how it's a bit dubious but as you said it highlights how messed up their relationship is, whereas in the show they've made it very black and white and unambiguous, with Jaime being a monstrous rapist and Cersei being the victim. And as you said, they never even deal with it afterwards, and never really drive any sort of significant wedge between them (I'm still furious re. the White Sword Tower scene).

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I think the show's fanbase turned on the show after episode 8.4 and not episode 8.3 for 5 reasons:

- Episode 8.3 was so hyped, that most of the show's fans were so sure this episode would have been great, that they didn't want to admit they didn't like it.

- Arya is one of the most popular characters and her stans were overjoyed she got the big kill.

- Many supporters of the show couldn't believe that the threat of the WW and the NK would be over so they wanted to wait until the next episode before they express their disappointment.

- With so many fans being annoyed by the 3rd episode, it now became acceptable among the fanbase to say they didn't like the 4th episode.  Anyone who expressed their disappointment with the 3rd episode in the first 24 hours after it aired was attacked viciously on social media by the show's rapid supporters.

- Dany is probably the most popular character and her fans hate where her character is headed.

 

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5 minutes ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

Tbh I thought season 2 was a bit rubbish: we had Quarth, ahem, Carth, and the stupid empty dragon-stealing plot there, Harrenhal degenerating into a series of badly written Tywin-Arya fanfiction scenes and the beginning of the dumbification of Jon Snow and his transmogrification into JonShow, the lumbering doofus we all know and love. 

To be fair, ACoK is a much weaker book than AGoT and ASoS.

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1 minute ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

To be fair, ACoK is a much weaker book than AGoT and ASoS.

I disagree. I like it a lot. 

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1 minute ago, Nothing Has Changed said:

I disagree. I like it a lot. 

I like it too.  All I said is that it's weaker than the other two.  It doesn't have any big powerful moments such as Ned's death, the birth of the dragons, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, Jon becoming Lord Commander etc.

The only big mistake the show made IMO with regards to season 2, was the omission of Reek (Ramsay).  He was behind all the bad decisions Theon made, and it made Theon's story less impactful IMO.

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5 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

To be fair, ACoK is a much weaker book than AGoT and ASoS.

While true, Season 2 seems a lot more... should we say, uneven, than Season 3? And more in an adaptation matter of things, I should say. For example, there's Stannis, who seems to be distracted by Melisandre's boobs and ass instead of their likely less sexy, off-page exchanges, since Stannis tells Davos that he is only using her as a source of power. Or just... Qarth, where they did weird things like have XXD kill the Thirteen, have Dany's dragons be kidnapped so she'd go to the HOTU... and still miss the point of the entirety of HOTU revelations. Oh, and it's where we got Talisa Maegyr too (Oona Chaplin could have been a great Jeyne Westerling, sigh...)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Ran said:

Season 5's final episode was the final nail in the coffin for me, after increasing dissatisfaction over the season.  I'm no "Stannis the Mannis" fanboy but I did think they wildly mishandled the character (Stephen Dillane saying he didn't understand his character's actions much of the time didn't help change my mind) and Dorne was an utter mess. It became too painful to watch, knowing that these choices were obviously considered good ones by D&D when they were obviously not. They didn't stick the landing for that episode or that season, and I suspected they wouldn't stick the landing for the series. So I stopped watching.

 

Yeah Season 5 was when it really got bad. It’s when D&D started becoming so full of themselves and thought that they could do things better than in the books and started writing their own fanfic. 

Edited by teej6

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50 minutes ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

I like it too.  All I said is that it's weaker than the other two.  It doesn't have any big powerful moments

The House of the Undying, the Battle of the Blackwater, the death of Qhorin Halfhand and Jon "turning" his cloak, Catelyn confronting Jaime, Bran and co. escaping Winterfell, the deaths of Ser Rodrik Cassel and Maester Luwin and so many other northmen as Winterfell is left a sacked ruin, weasel soup -- all pretty memorable.

I don't think it's weaker at all if you're looking at it purely from a "wow factor" perspective.The 2nd season definitely had issues with some of this. They didn't get Qarth at all. It was supposed to be a sojourn in a beguiling, exotic fairytale place that was a temptation and distraction for Daenerys, and instead they did... what they did, for whatever reason, while downgrading the House of the Undying into just a random labyrinth with little prophetic depth. The last Jon chapter basically didn't get adapted, with the beauty and weight of Qhorin's talking with Jon that last night before the end, instead just rushing it into an action beat. They futzed around with Winterfell and didn't bother with Reek/Ramsay (so I'm in agreement there). Catelyn basically did her talk with Jaime at the end of S1 and so it was all perfunctory in S2. 

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Ran said:

The last Jon chapter basically didn't get adapted, with the beauty and weight of Qhorin's talking with Jon that last night before the end, instead just rushing it into an action beat. 

Jon’s storyline I feel they’ve been mucking up from the very beginning.  I especially disliked the fact that they had Sam find the dragon glass instead of Jon and Ghost. They had Jon volunteer to go with Qhorin, instead of Qhorin asking for Jon himself.  

Edited by teej6

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

Jon’s storyline I feel they’ve been mucking up from the very beginning.  I especially disliked the fact that they had Sam find the dragon glass instead of Jon and Ghost. They had Jon volunteer to go with Qhorin, instead of Qhorin asking for Jon himself.  

I think the Stark family (Jon and Cat included) were pretty mishandled from the start, and the same goes for Dany - other characters, too, like Jaime and Stannis, but the Stark kids and Dany especially are the main characters so to speak, so I expected their stories to be... so much better. And they weren’t, not even when the show was still watchable (pre s5). But when you think about it, these are the “magical” characters, the characters whose development and growth is more connected to the fantasy aspect of the story. And D&D either don’t care much for the fantasy aspect of the story, or can’t really handle it in a satisfactory manner - I suspect it’s both btw, they don’t like it and can’t do anything interesting or even coherent w/ it. And this was pretty evident even before they overtook the books. It feels to me that they are much more interested and invested in the game, the political intrigue, hence the Amazing Lannisters Show. 

 

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25 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think the Stark family (Jon and Cat included) were pretty mishandled from the start, and the same goes for Dany - other characters, too, like Jaime and Stannis, but the Stark kids and Dany especially are the main characters so to speak, so I expected their stories to be... so much better. And they weren’t, not even when the show was still watchable (pre s5). But when you think about it, these are the “magical” characters, the characters whose development and growth is more connected to the fantasy aspect of the story. And D&D either don’t care much for the fantasy aspect of the story, or can’t really handle it in a satisfactory manner - I suspect it’s both btw, they don’t like it and can’t do anything interesting or even coherent w/ it. And this was pretty evident even before they overtook the books. It feels to me that they are much more interested and invested in the game, the political intrigue, hence the Amazing Lannisters Show. 

 

Yes, they really couldn’t appreciate and handle the fantasy elements, except of course for the dragons. They stripped the story of it’s magic and myth. Jon and Arya are not wargs or connected to their direwolves, Bran’s storyline was butchered as they had no clue what do with it, the CoTF became grenade throwing elves, and the WWs amounted to nothing. The problem as you said is that they were only interested in the political drama and were probably forced to include the other aspects when they had book material and when Martin was still involved. Once the show became a huge commercial and critical success (I believe this really only happened after S3 and the red wedding), their reliance on Martin and the books decreased. They also realized that they would finish the show before Martin finished the books, which gave them added leverage to make decisions independent of the books and Martin and change things the way they wanted to. In their hubris they thought they could tell a better and more condensed story and as a result we got the butchering of Dorne and Stannis.

Up until S4 although I had issues with the show, I still enjoyed many aspects of the it. I enjoyed the last scene in the finale of S4 with Arya getting on a ship to Bravos with Ramin Djawani’s rousing score. There was this sense of hope. Alas, then there was S5. If I’m not mistaken, GRRM stopped writing for the show after S4. I’d be curious to know if there was some serious disagreement with Martin and D&D around this time. 

What’s most upsetting is the lost opportunity and the sheer waste of the talented actors they were able to get on the show, the thought that this could have been good. They got very lucky in the choice of some of their actors. Although Arya being sassy with Tywin was ridiculous and unrealistic, Maisie and Charles Dance sold it and they were a treat to watch. Sean Bean, Mark Addy, Michelle Farley were solid, Pedro Pascal was entertaining, Lena Heady and Dinklage were gold together, Conlith Hill is so good, and so many more. Stephen Dillane is one of my favorite actors and he could have done wonders with the Stannis’ character if they had just given him more to work with. He delivered Stannis line on we must to our duty no... great or small we must do our duty to perfection without even knowing anything about the character. What a waste. 

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17 hours ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

I think the show's fanbase turned on the show after episode 8.4 and not episode 8.3 for 5 reasons:

- Episode 8.3 was so hyped, that most of the show's fans were so sure this episode would have been great, that they didn't want to admit they didn't like it.

- Arya is one of the most popular characters and her stans were overjoyed she got the big kill.

- Many supporters of the show couldn't believe that the threat of the WW and the NK would be over so they wanted to wait until the next episode before they express their disappointment.

- With so many fans being annoyed by the 3rd episode, it now became acceptable among the fanbase to say they didn't like the 4th episode.  Anyone who expressed their disappointment with the 3rd episode in the first 24 hours after it aired was attacked viciously on social media by the show's rapid supporters.

- Dany is probably the most popular character and her fans hate where her character is headed.

 

I was beating my brains out these last few days to understand how and why the average audience reacted so badly to this last episode, and I think you nailed it, even though I don't think Dany is the most popular character (I believe it's Jon, and I saw many casuals saying he was being too dumb, which means a lot given how dumb he's been in the past), but yes, I think the handling of Dany's descent surely plays a part in the general dissatisfaction too.

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Just to echo what a lot of people are saying here, season 5 episode 9 with Stannis allowing Melisandre to burn Shireen ruined it for me.  At first I just flat out refused to believe that Stannis would carry out this act, so I was furious with the show for (further) butchering the Stannis character.  But then Elio and Linda (grudgingly) convinced me in one of their videos that this is likely to happen, but under completely different circumstances.  The stupidity of (shirtless) Ramsey Bolton and his 20 good men (with god-like powers) destroying all of Stannis' food and siege weapons (along with lighting a horse on fire) without even being seen was ridiculous.  

But D&D do not learn from their mistakes.  Even to this season, they continue to put characters into specific situation where the circumstances leading to that situation are not believable. (ie. "Dany just kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet")

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Posted (edited)

To me, I always appreciated the pragmatism of the adaptation, combining characters and arcs together for the sake of a smoother overall plot. I get it, TV shows need that direction, and for the first four seasons, it worked. Twists were still earned, characters were still consistent, things were just... pragmatic.

Then Season 5 happened, and it was clear that without George RR Martin on the writing team, things had changed. Suddenly, I was noticing more and more:

1: Obvious setup for obvious twists that are unexpected for the sake of shock value (looking at you, Stannis 'I love you so much Shireen GOTCHA YOU'RE BURNING LOL' Baratheon).

2: Shitty, sex obsessed dialogue about cocks and bad pussy.

3: Casual character derailment to get people from A to B.

4: Zero consequences for any stupid decision.

5: D & D 'waxing philosophical' with shitty, shallow interpretations of GRRM's work, like 'Humanity is bad and you should feel bad', 'It's all about cocks in the end', 'Religion is always bad and homophobic mmkay', and 'Pandering to fanservice and memes makes our wallets happy'.

6: Plot armour for fan favourites.

7: Casual disregard for continuity and worldbuilding, including teleportation and randomly passing the previously impassable (hey, remember when the journey between South/North meant either crossing the Neck or the Twins? And that Robb finding the Twins preferable to the dangerous Neck was... kind of an important plot point to set up the Red Wedding? Neither do the show's writers, it's fine).

8: Spectacle over plot or characterisation.

So for me, all of Season 5 was a massive turning point.

Edited by Beardy the Wildling

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Honestly? Sansa getting raped in Season 5. Then Dorne. Then Cersei blowing up the Sept and still ending up on the Throne. Then Spidersquirrel Arya jumping from the trees to stake the NK. Then the thing that happened last night.

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