The living overestimated the deads strength

[darksellsword]

4 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

The defences were breached though and most of the Living force seems to have been killed as well.

 

That is the point: The Living stupidly increased the bodycount so that the resurrection schtick worked.

This guy gets it

[snow is the man]

17 hours ago, darksellsword said:

Obsidian was never used by men at any point as far as I know it was primarily used by the children of the forest, the reason obsidian kills wytes is because it is made of volcanic fire turned to stone Valyrian steel is believed to have ancient magic from old valyria and was originally forged with dragon fire, giving us two gigantic clues that anything fire related really is bad news for Wytes and the NightKing and why Drogon should've melted him with dragonfire, true obsidian it isn't a strong weapon when it comes to armor but as I've said the bulk of the Nightkings army is made up of rotting corpses with little to no armor and the army of the living remember only has to kill 2 Wytes per man/woman to survive. 

I didn't miss that point friend, my point was that they could've easily killed enough wytes per man that it wouldn't matter who they raised from the dead the NightKing would still lose numerically

None of what the army of the living did made sense based on "the long night" I was primarily making a point on Jon claiming it was impossible to beat them at the point of the war planning session they had in episode 2. The show writers planted a seed in the viewers heads to ignore everything that had been prepared and assembled to fight the NightKing and accept that all they could do in the end is squander their cavalry, stick their trebuchets out in front and only use them twice, build the worst trench possible and not do anything to make it flammable ie oil etc or make it deep enough that when a few Wytes fell into it that didn't create a bridge for the rest to cross.  a few archers firing from the battlements when there should've been thousands with skilled swordsmen standing behind them to protect them if the Wytes scaled the walls There are dozens of really great posts on this forum about how badly setup the forces of the living were. The whole thing was contrived not based on established facts or reason but because Dan& Dave decided it would be cool if Arya assassinated the NightKing

The idiotic thing was Dany knew the dothraki were being sent out to blindly attack the enemy in the dark, she couldn't have expected anything other than mass casualties

They knew what they were facing, they had the weapons and the means to beat them, if anything it should be the army of the living that has the element of surprise, the Nightking hasn't faced dragonglass or Valyrian Steel in centuries and all of a sudden there is an army of thousands meeting him with it first thing when he gets passed the wall

The Wytes would never have overrun them like that if they had setup correctly and had two dragons endlessly doing scorched earth runs on the larger body of Wyte forces. Dany was sending her Dothraki out on a suicide charge with metal Arakhs if Mellisandre hadn't showed up and lit them on fire then they would've been piss in the wind even more so than they eventually were. Don't even get me started on undead Viserion. They had no plan at all for him. Jaime could have instructed them on how to make Qyburns scorpion for example or had some kind of dragonglass weapon made to try and take it down, nope just let that thing fly around burning the place down at will. This show is fan fiction of a song of ice and fire.

Okay the dragons were needed to unseat the night king and since most would think hitting the night king with fire would kill him (it didn't but it isn't stupid to think it would). I agree that sending the dothraki out like that was stupid.

 

However you misunderstood what I meant when I was saying that people who were technologically advanced to any real degree didn't use obsidian since they could make bronze weapons.  I meant in real life. Any civilization who could make metal didn't use obsidian anymore since it is very brittle and breaks easily.

[darksellsword]

31 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

Okay the dragons were needed to unseat the night king and since most would think hitting the night king with fire would kill him (it didn't but it isn't stupid to think it would). I agree that sending the dothraki out like that was stupid.

 

However you misunderstood what I meant when I was saying that people who were technologically advanced to any real degree didn't use obsidian since they could make bronze weapons.  I meant in real life. Any civilization who could make metal didn't use obsidian anymore since it is very brittle and breaks easily.

I think my problem with how it all panned out is the 7 seasons of exposition of who would kill the NightKing and how. I mean they went to great lengths to have the characters in the north learn that Obsidian kills Wytes a detail that had almost been forgotten about for centuries upon centuries. I'm not sure this part is true so don't slate me for it but Obsidian aka dragonglass is stone forged by fire.The reason why there is so much of it under dragonstone in the caves may be down to dragons living in there for centuries. I know on the show D&D added the cave drawings etc that directly contradict that theory but they could've added that bullshit themselves. D&D are on the record as saying 'nobody knows if Dragonfire couldn't kill the NightKing, but they also don't know that it could' so they rather stupidly and arrogantly decided that they would ignore the established fact that dragonfire is a form of powerful magic that can melt stone and that the Nightking through being vulnerable to Obsidian is clearly vulnerable to any fire magic. If you want to get into the Prince that was promised prophecy and how well balanced and thought out it is, to have the revelation that the bastard of winterfell that had to scrap for everything he had in a frozen wasteland living the life of a jesuit sacrificing his life for doing the right thing, the guy that painstakingly convinced the living to fight with him and how to beat them with magic stone weapons and their precious Valyrian swords were needed too, the idea that this almost entirely selfmade hero is the rightful leader and ruler of Westeros that will literally battle an army of death with a flaming sword to save them, but ye'know what maybe his little sister the assassin that just learned about the whole thing a few episodes ago an assassin thats entire story arc is geared towards killing living enemies that have killed the starks, no she should kill the NightKing with a one stab saves the world move , yeah that is a much cooler outcome welldone D&D

[Forlong the Fat]

5 hours ago, darksellsword said:

I think my problem with how it all panned out is the 7 seasons of exposition of who would kill the NightKing and how. I mean they went to great lengths to have the characters in the north learn that Obsidian kills Wytes a detail that had almost been forgotten about for centuries upon centuries. I'm not sure this part is true so don't slate me for it but Obsidian aka dragonglass is stone forged by fire.The reason why there is so much of it under dragonstone in the caves may be down to dragons living in there for centuries. I know on the show D&D added the cave drawings etc that directly contradict that theory but they could've added that bullshit themselves. D&D are on the record as saying 'nobody knows if Dragonfire couldn't kill the NightKing, but they also don't know that it could' so they rather stupidly and arrogantly decided that they would ignore the established fact that dragonfire is a form of powerful magic that can melt stone and that the Nightking through being vulnerable to Obsidian is clearly vulnerable to any fire magic. If you want to get into the Prince that was promised prophecy and how well balanced and thought out it is, to have the revelation that the bastard of winterfell that had to scrap for everything he had in a frozen wasteland living the life of a jesuit sacrificing his life for doing the right thing, the guy that painstakingly convinced the living to fight with him and how to beat them with magic stone weapons and their precious Valyrian swords were needed too, the idea that this almost entirely selfmade hero is the rightful leader and ruler of Westeros that will literally battle an army of death with a flaming sword to save them, but ye'know what maybe his little sister the assassin that just learned about the whole thing a few episodes ago an assassin thats entire story arc is geared towards killing living enemies that have killed the starks, no she should kill the NightKing with a one stab saves the world move , yeah that is a much cooler outcome welldone D&D

Dragon glass is obsidian, volcanic rock. It isn't made by dragons. 

There's a lot on Dragonstone because it's a volcanic island. 

If NK could be killed by dragon fire, why would he have lasted thousands of years? He wouldn't be very hard to kill if all you had to do was get near him with a dragon, and it's important to remember that scarcity of dragons is a recent issue compared to NK's lifetime. 

And it's also not clear he was vulnerable to dragon glass-he was killed by valyrian steel, which is a fairly recent material compared to his lifespan. 

I also don't understand your objection to one stab. Should he have been pummeled to death? 

[darksellsword]

58 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Dragon glass is obsidian, volcanic rock. It isn't made by dragons. 

There's a lot on Dragonstone because it's a volcanic island. 

If NK could be killed by dragon fire, why would he have lasted thousands of years? He wouldn't be very hard to kill if all you had to do was get near him with a dragon, and it's important to remember that scarcity of dragons is a recent issue compared to NK's lifetime. 

And it's also not clear he was vulnerable to dragon glass-he was killed by valyrian steel, which is a fairly recent material compared to his lifespan. 

I also don't understand your objection to one stab. Should he have been pummeled to death? 

Dragonglass is obsidian in our world yeah and it is probably the same in Planetos yes. I didn't actually remember anything about Dragonstone being a Volcanic island but that is true thanks for that, dragonglass still has a magical property connected with fire in that world. The Nightking has never attacked Westeros while the Targaryens and their dragons have been there which is roughly 500 years so no he hasn't encountered Dragon fire before that we know of. Why has he survived 8000 years and a few epic wars when one dragonglass arrowhead can undo him and his entire army? It was pretty evident that the Nightking was vulnerable to everything the others were vulnerable to apart from fire bc D&D thought it would subvert peoples expectations to randomly make him immune to fire .We have no idea how long the Valyrians have been making Valyrian steel thousands of years presumably. What is my objection to one stab saves the world shite? it's a cliched B movie trope. The whole thing is very stupid when you add in the fact the children of the forest fought the NightKing with the first men and whoever was around at the time, giants and they couldn't take out one guy with weapons they use all the time.

[Forlong the Fat]

2 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

Dragonglass is obsidian in our world yeah and it is probably the same in Planetos yes. I didn't actually remember anything about Dragonstone being a Volcanic island but that is true thanks for that, dragonglass still has a magical property connected with fire in that world. The Nightking has never attacked Westeros while the Targaryens and their dragons have been there which is roughly 500 years so no he hasn't encountered Dragon fire before that we know of. Why has he survived 8000 years and a few epic wars when one dragonglass arrowhead can undo him and his entire army? It was pretty evident that the Nightking was vulnerable to everything the others were vulnerable to apart from fire bc D&D thought it would subvert peoples expectations to randomly make him immune to fire .We have no idea how long the Valyrians have been making Valyrian steel thousands of years presumably. What is my objection to one stab saves the world shite? it's a cliched B movie trope. The whole thing is very stupid when you add in the fact the children of the forest fought the NightKing with the first men and whoever was around at the time, giants and they couldn't take out one guy with weapons they use all the time.

Is the problem subversion or consistency with typical plot elements? There is no evidence he's vulnerable to dragonglass, nor to being hit by arrows. He dies because he was stabbed in the heart, where dragonglass was inserted to create him, with a valyrian steel dagger that possibly had additional special properties. And that's not a subversion of anything--from smaug to the deathstar, the unstoppable weapon always has a weak spot. Unless you want the good guys to lose, he kinda has to. 

I also don't see how it's arbitrary for the most powerful form of ice not to be susceptible to fire. That didn't come from nowhere, either: fire was shown to shrink back from him in previous episodes  

[darksellsword]

19 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Is the problem subversion or consistency with typical plot elements? There is no evidence he's vulnerable to dragonglass, nor to being hit by arrows. He dies because he was stabbed in the heart, where dragonglass was inserted to create him, with a valyrian steel dagger that possibly had additional special properties. And that's not a subversion of anything--from smaug to the deathstar, the unstoppable weapon always has a weak spot. Unless you want the good guys to lose, he kinda has to. 

I also don't see how it's arbitrary for the most powerful form of ice not to be susceptible to fire. That didn't come from nowhere, either: fire was shown to shrink back from him in previous episodes  

D&D are the ones that say they are tryin subversion on their audience with these plot points. The fact you are suggesting that "typical plot elements" are something desired in anything adapted from asoiaf is a travesty. There are no good guys or bad guys in this saga. George wanted to write a story where nobody is entirely good or entirely bad. The mere issue of the NightKing and him being unstoppable is garbage story telling written in crayon on the end of one of the most original and compelling pieces of fantasy fiction of our time. btw dragonfire isn't like regular fire that we make with sticks and flint it has some kind of magic to it. It is like upper tier level of magic it melts everything but a NightKing.