So what is gonna happen with jon and dany now that they know who he really is.

[Nami]

6 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Then why didn't he avoid everyone else and only her ? He was fine chatting with his boys.

And your last paragraph, how is leaning in to another person a definite sexual move ? People who love eachother do that, doesn't always have to be sexual. I can only speak for myself, I've had my little sister lean in on me like that, I've leaned in like that towards my uncle. Even among friends it's normal. How you could interpret that as sexual from Jons POV is beyond me. Not like they were kissing. Its not like Jon initiated that lean and secondly, Jon was still processing the reveal even before Dany joined him Jon hadn't moved from that spot for god knows how long. Like I said, if Dany leaned in for a kiss on the lips and Jon had kissed her back, yeah you'd be 100% right. But that hasn't happened, yet.

I'm not saying Jon is never going to be with Dany, sexually. But as of right now based on episode 2, there are no clear signs that Jon is ok with incest. If anything, there are more signs that he isn't. Worst case, it's hard to say what Jons view is on that. The remaining episodes will give us a definite answer.

I just rewatched the ending. And he didn't smile once ?

before the battle, when she approached him he smiled at her

[Gianna Dorenberg]

1 minute ago, Nami said:

before the battle, when she approached him he smiled at her

Oh ok thanks. I thought you were referring to the end of episode 2. My bad.

[MinscS2]

17 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Then why didn't he avoid everyone else and only her ? He was fine chatting with his boys.

Because the implications of what he is clearly affects his relation with Daenerys more than any other current relation. It's not just about "Oh no I had sex with my aunt", it's about him being a Targaryen - like her, about her suddenly becoming his closest blood relative, and how she will react to the news about him. This is all things he himself has to process before he's ready to talk with her. 

Basically, he can act "normal" around other people because with them nothing has changed (so he doesn't have to avoid them), but with her it has - and it would've had regardless if they were in a romance or not, and/or if they'd had sex or not.

Quote

And your last paragraph, how is leaning in to another person a definite sexual move ? People who love eachother do that, doesn't always have to be sexual. I can only speak for myself, I've had my little sister lean in on me like that, I've leaned in like that towards my uncle. Even among friends it's normal. How you could interpret that as sexual from Jons POV is beyond me. Not like they were kissing. Its not like Jon initiated that lean and secondly, Jon was still processing the reveal even before Dany joined him Jon hadn't moved from that spot for god knows how long. Like I said, if Dany leaned in for a kiss on the lips and Jon had kissed her back, yeah you'd be 100% right. But that hasn't happened, yet.

Errr...what? I haven't said that it was a sexual move.
You said that Jon clearly was "digusted by Daenerys being his aunt/incest", etc.

Cuddling up against someones arm is not a sexual move per se, but if Jon was disgusted by the thought of Daenerys being his aunt from a incestuous point of view (per your own words), then he wouldn't had let her snuggle up like that. He would've instantly pulled away in disgust at her touching him - but he didn't.

And @Nami makes a great point about how he even manages to smile at her. 
Not the normal reaction to a person who's presence would disgust you.
 

Quote

I'm not saying Jon is never going to be with Dany, sexually. But as of right now based on episode 2, there are no clear signs that Jon is ok with incest. If anything, there are more signs that he isn't. Worst case, it's hard to say what Jons view is on that. The remaining episodes will give us a definite answer.

I'd say it's hard, outright impossible as of episode 3, to say what Jon's thoughts on the matter are, be it him being OK with it or disgusted by it. 

Him pulling away from Daenerys (momentarily) after the reveal is not unexpected, in fact it's something I called well over a year ago on this very forum. They both need to wrap their heads around the new reality before their relationship can recommence, assuming it ever does.

[Nami]

5 minutes ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Oh ok thanks. I thought you were referring to the end of episode 2. My bad.

It was the end of episode 2. This scene

 

[CrypticWeirwood]

12 hours ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

The incest thing will be a problem for jon. He will dump her ...

There was no incest. 

More specifically, incest is not the act of sex between two people who are related, for if it were, all sexual acts would be incestuous because everyone is related to everyone else. Incest is not an act: incest is a crime. Don’t confuse act for crime. Only illegal acts are incestuous ones. If it is not illegal, it is not incest.

That's because incest is the crime of sexual congress between two people who are more closely related than whatever degree is allowable by law in a given jurisdiction. Whether simple or complex, each legal system sets up its own very specific rules about which degree is too close to be legal. If it is closer than the permitted degree, any marriage is invalid and any carnal act is illegal. Only the illegal acts are incest, never the legal ones.

1. Common to most societies is the law that first degree relatives (consanguinity = ¹/₂) cannot marry, and so sexual congress between them is incestuous.  First degree is immediate family, so between siblings or between a parent and their child. Sibling marriage within the royal family was practiced in Egypt, where being licit it was consequently not incestuous.  The Targaryens seem to think themselves pharaohs even if the Faith disagrees.
2. With relatives of the second degree (consanguinity = ¹/₄), laws vary considerably worldwide and across time; it can be legal and thus not incest, or illegal and therefore incest. The legality and therefore the criminal status may also depend on more complex factors that the degree of consanguinity itself.  For example, avuncular marriage or double first cousins may be legal because it is not in the direct line, while marriage between half-siblings or a grandparent and their grandchild may be illegal. This more closely follows most European laws dating from the Middle Ages. There may also in certain jurisdictions be age requirements or restrictions above and beyond all this, but those have mostly come into existence only in modern times.
3. Third degree relatives (consanguinity = ¹/₈) like first cousins are generally legal under most legal systems, but some non-European cultures have various restrictions or requirements depending on the gender and matri- or patrilineal direction of the relationship, such as those involving cross-cousins.

Jon and Sansa or Arya are third degree relations, so that wouldn't count as incest because marriage between first cousins is not illegal. A straightforward reading of the degree of consanguinity between Jon and Dany is that their shared blood factor is of the second degree and of the avuncular sort, which even the nobility would sometimes practice in Westeros just as in historical Europe. Under neither system would their carnal congress be considered an illegal act; because it is no crime, it is clearly not incest. A more careful genetic analysis could yield more complicated fractions because of Targaryen inbreeding, but we aren’t perfectly certain that Rhaegar is Aerys’s son, either.

[snow is the man]

On 5/3/2019 at 8:29 PM, King Jon Snow Stark said:

You can pass a bastard name to a legitimate child?

I was just guessing. If dany and jon have kids they will probably get the targ name

 

[King Jon Snow Stark]

14 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

I was just guessing. If dany and jon have kids they will probably get the targ name

 

I guess I’m questioning the need to have Jon be a legitimate Targ. It seems to just be a thing to cause drama. 

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 hours ago, King Jon Snow Stark said:

I guess I’m questioning the need to have Jon be a legitimate Targ. It seems to just be a thing to cause drama. 

At this point, we don't really know why Martin chose this route, but we can be certain he did so with a purpose in mind.

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, Gianna Dorenberg said:

Oh ok thanks. I thought you were referring to the end of episode 2. My bad.

It was a sad smile... not a happy smile... not a romantic smile. But the smile made Dany feel confident enough to take his arm.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

There was no incest. 

More specifically, incest is not the act of sex between two people who are related, for if it were, all sexual acts would be incestuous because everyone is related to everyone else. Incest is not an act: incest is a crime. Don’t confuse act for crime. Only illegal acts are incestuous ones. If it is not illegal, it is not incest.

That's because incest is the crime of sexual congress between two people who are more closely related than whatever degree is allowable by law in a given jurisdiction. Whether simple or complex, each legal system sets up its own very specific rules about which degree is too close to be legal. If it is closer than the permitted degree, any marriage is invalid and any carnal act is illegal. Only the illegal acts are incest, never the legal ones.

1. Common to most societies is the law that first degree relatives (consanguinity = ¹/₂) cannot marry, and so sexual congress between them is incestuous.  First degree is immediate family, so between siblings or between a parent and their child. Sibling marriage within the royal family was practiced in Egypt, where being licit it was consequently not incestuous.  The Targaryens seem to think themselves pharaohs even if the Faith disagrees.
2. With relatives of the second degree (consanguinity = ¹/₄), laws vary considerably worldwide and across time; it can be legal and thus not incest, or illegal and therefore incest. The legality and therefore the criminal status may also depend on more complex factors that the degree of consanguinity itself.  For example, avuncular marriage or double first cousins may be legal because it is not in the direct line, while marriage between half-siblings or a grandparent and their grandchild may be illegal. This more closely follows most European laws dating from the Middle Ages. There may also in certain jurisdictions be age requirements or restrictions above and beyond all this, but those have mostly come into existence only in modern times.
3. Third degree relatives (consanguinity = ¹/₈) like first cousins are generally legal under most legal systems, but some non-European cultures have various restrictions or requirements depending on the gender and matri- or patrilineal direction of the relationship, such as those involving cross-cousins.

Jon and Sansa or Arya are third degree relations, so that wouldn't count as incest because marriage between first cousins is not illegal. A straightforward reading of the degree of consanguinity between Jon and Dany is that their shared blood factor is of the second degree and of the avuncular sort, which even the nobility would sometimes practice in Westeros just as in historical Europe. Under neither system would their carnal congress be considered an illegal act; because it is no crime, it is clearly not incest. A more careful genetic analysis could yield more complicated fractions because of Targaryen inbreeding, but we aren’t perfectly certain that Rhaegar is Aerys’s son, either.

In Westeros, the legality of incest depends on the religion of the region and the social concept of when is it too closes.

For wildlings: First Men, Old Gods, anyone of the same village is regarded as kin and therefore it's incest.

In the North: First Men, Old Gods, with increasing Andal influence, 1st cousins can marry, but avuncular is seriously frowned upon. It is one of the reasons why book Jon helps Alys Karstark to escape the marriage that her uncle plans for her. And yes, a few hundred years ago some uncles tried to wed their Stark nieces, but these women tried to rebel against it. In both cases (past and with Alys) it's portrayed as a power grab by men who aren't heirs.

Anywhere else: Andal, Faith, 1st cousins can marry. Avuncular is not accepted

Targs: Valyrian dragonlords, warred several times with the Faith over this and settled it with an exceptionalism rule so that any kin except for parent-child can marry. But even Egg who dwelled more time amongst the commoners than with his family, developed an aversion to sibling marriages.

If Jon had grown up with Dany and Viserys he would likely have no issue with marrying his aunt. But he was brought up amongst the North and has also acquired a perception similar to that of wildlings. Having had sexual relations with someone who turns out to be his aunt, is not just a slight hiccup for him.

Your argument might be correct from a legal standpoint, but it completely ignores Jon's cultural perception of it no matter what label you give it.

[hallam]

I think folk are thinking way too small here. The incest issue is kinda small beer and Danny might well be pregnant already by Jon

People tend to read too much into the book prophecies. As soon as I heard the Night's Watch vows, I was pretty sure that Jon was going to end up being killed and resurrected. It is pretty much foregone that a conditional prophecy will have the condition met. Mirri Maz Duur never actually says that Danny is infertile, only that she must have another baby for Drogo to return.

The big issue for Jon and Danny is not who is going to sit on the Iron Throne but how they can stop Cersei invading the north with their army decimated by the Army of the Dead.

The dragon has three heads so Arya, Jon and Danny will all have big parts in the close. Arya is the representative of house Stark, Danny the representative of house Targarian. If you remember the original targ ruler of Westeros, he married two sisters... I can't see the show going there but the book might at least imply it.

I remember when folk were venting here about the Loras/Renly nude scene. Which from their vantage point of one episode they thought 'bad writing'. Well it was one of the pivotal moments of the High Sparrow plot. But the bellyachers never admitted their error, they just whined about the next thing they thought was wrong.

I have a feeling that the NK plot might not be quite as finished as people imagine.

[Nami]

1 hour ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

At this point, we don't really know why Martin chose this route, but we can be certain he did so with a purpose in mind.

will he really be a legitimate child? I find it hard to believe Martin will spin this annulment BS with Rhaegar and Elia just so Rhaegar's marriage with Lyanna will be valid. I mean, it was clear this whole annulment thing, with a document in the citadel that no one in the world knew, was pulled out of someone's ass.

Jon doesn't need to be legitimate to end The Long Night, which is foreshadowed in the books that will be his role.

[MinscS2]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Anywhere else: Andal, Faith, 1st cousins can marry. Avuncular is not accepted.

Source please. A real source, not just one minor book-characters opinion on the matter. 
Because I've continuously read and heard the opposite: That it is accepted, and that only acts between first degree relatives are considered incest.

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Source please. A real source, not just one minor book-characters opinion on the matter. 
Because I've continuously read and heard the opposite: That it is accepted, and that only acts between first degree relatives are considered incest.

There were no objections made by the Faith when Aenys was wed to his cousin. When Visenya proposed to have Maegor the Cruel wed his niece Rhaena, daughter of Aenys though the High Septon protested. He's the leader of the Faith, so I certainly wouldn't call him a "minor book character". And this predates the exceptionalism rule for Targaryens. (sources: tWoIaF, and F&B)

The sole other known examples of avuncular marriages are those of the half-uncles of two Stark women. It walked the line, and was accepted because they were half-brothers of the father of the women in question.

If you can find any other avuncular marriages, I'd appreciate it.

[Deminelle]

8 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

<snip> A more careful genetic analysis could yield more complicated fractions because of Targaryen inbreeding, but we aren’t perfectly certain that Rhaegar is Aerys’s son, either.

Is there such possibility yet? Wouldn't it be too complicated for the show?

[MinscS2]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

There were no objections made by the Faith when Aenys was wed to his cousin. When Visenya proposed to have Maegor the Cruel wed his niece Rhaena, daughter of Aenys though the High Septon protested. He's the leader of the Faith, so I certainly wouldn't call him a "minor book character". And this predates the exceptionalism rule for Targaryens. (sources: tWoIaF, and F&B)

The sole other known examples of avuncular marriages are those of the half-uncles of two Stark women. It walked the line, and was accepted because they were half-brothers of the father of the women in question.

If you can find any other avuncular marriages, I'd appreciate it.

So basically we only have the opinions of one High Septon who may or may not have had ulterior motives, to go on.
I was hoping there would be more to back it up. (I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious.)

No I can't find (m)any other cases of avuncular marriages in Westeros than the Stark ones, but given the whole "innocent until proven guilty"-aspect, it's up to those who scream "Incest!" to prove the illegality of it, and not the other way around.

Currently it seems that the general view on avuncular marriages in Westeros is up in the air, which basically corresponds with the real world where it's banned in some countries and legal in some, including western countries. 


 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Deminelle said:

Is there such possibility yet? Wouldn't it be too complicated for the show?

There used to be quite a popular theory here, that Daenerys was Rhaegar's child by Rhaella.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

So basically we only have the opinions of one High Septon who may or may not have had ulterior motives, to go on.
I was hoping there would be more to back it up. (I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious.)

The High Septon is the equivalent to a Pope. So, yeah, that one opinion is enough.

[Nami]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

There used to be quite a popular theory here, that Daenerys was Rhaegar's child by Rhaella.

EW. Holy shit. I mean...ew.
Targs marry brother and sister. There's no mother and child incest. Good lord.

[MinscS2]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

The High Septon is the equivalent to a Pope. So, yeah, that one opinion is enough.

For you perhaps...

Given how many times popes in reality and high septons in the show act hypocritical and out of pure self-interest, one high septons opinion is far from enough to tell me what the general view of avuncular marriages are in Westeros. 

Doubt we'll find out either.