Heir to Barrowton

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

If Tywin left Casterly Rock to Tommen, Casterly Rock would in future belong to House Baratheon. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Only if the son of Tommen who eventually inherits Casterly Rock uses the name 'Baratheon'. Nobody will be able to stop him if he wants to go by 'Lannister'. Or do you think anyone is going to be able to the king or his son what name to use?

2 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Tommen's sons should inherit IT, Dragonstone and Storm's End. Prince with Baratheon surname to inherit Casterly Rock is worse than Tyrion for Tywin.

See above. Chances are about zero that Tywin would have preferred some nephew or brother succeeding him rather than his golden-haired, pure-blooded Lannister grandchildren...

[Free Northman Reborn]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Only if the son of Tommen who eventually inherits Casterly Rock uses the name 'Baratheon'. Nobody will be able to stop him if he wants to go by 'Lannister'. Or do you think anyone is going to be able to the king or his son what name to use?

See above. Chances are about zero that Tywin would have preferred some nephew or brother succeeding him rather than his golden-haired, pure-blooded Lannister grandchildren...

Tywin doesn’t know they are Jaime’s children. As far as he is concerned they are Baratheons.

And there is no guarantee that an adult Tommen will favour his maternal house over his paternal one. In fact, it is an utterly ridiculous notion given that it is his Baratheon lineage that makes him King.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Tywin doesn’t know they are Jaime’s children. As far as he is concerned they are Baratheons.

We don't really know that, do we? But even if he didn't want to believe it his grandchildren still look like pure-blooded Lannisters, no?

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

And there is no guarantee that an adult Tommen will favour his maternal house over his paternal one. In fact, it is an utterly ridiculous notion given that it is his Baratheon lineage that makes him King.

Cersei's children all see themselves as Lannisters rather than Baratheons. They were brought up by their mother, after all. The very fact that Joffrey and Tommen and Myrcella all use both the stag and the lion as their banner implies that. Tywin even wanted to raise Tommen as his ward back at Casterly Rock.

And if the king happened to be the Lord of Casterly Rock himself for a time so be it. Tommen is Tywin's grandson, not some son of Kevan's. And if you can use two sigil and combine them into one banner then Tommen certainly could call himself Baratheon when he is decreeing something as king and call himself Lannister when he acts as Lord of Casterly Rock. After all, women do that, too, don't they? Catelyn and Lysa go both by the name Tully, their birth name, and the name of their husbands in their roles as Lady of Winterfell/the Eyrie.

This kind of thing should happen rather often in Dorne, by the way. After all, many Princesses of Dorne should have taken consorts who were lords in their own right or heirs who eventually became lords (confirmed for Nymeria's second husband, Lord Uller of Hellholt). Which means that a child from such a union would have succeeded to Sunspear and Dorne while another would have eventually become the Lord of Hellholt or Skyreach or Starfall. The latter would have then likely gone by the name of their father whereas the child named heir of Dorne would have eventually ruled Dorne as a Prince(ss) of House Martell.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:04 PM, Padraig O'Sullivan said:

Who inherits Barrowton if anything happens to Lady Dustin. Would it be one of her Ryswell brothers or a relative of her late husband 

May be there is a Branda Snow somewhere . B+B=B

[BlackLightning]

On 5/4/2019 at 1:37 PM, Lord Varys said:

We don't really know that, do we? But even if he didn't want to believe it his grandchildren still look like pure-blooded Lannisters, no?

Cersei's children all see themselves as Lannisters rather than Baratheons. They were brought up by their mother, after all. The very fact that Joffrey and Tommen and Myrcella all use both the stag and the lion as their banner implies that. Tywin even wanted to raise Tommen as his ward back at Casterly Rock.

And if the king happened to be the Lord of Casterly Rock himself for a time so be it. Tommen is Tywin's grandson, not some son of Kevan's. And if you can use two sigil and combine them into one banner then Tommen certainly could call himself Baratheon when he is decreeing something as king and call himself Lannister when he acts as Lord of Casterly Rock. After all, women do that, too, don't they? Catelyn and Lysa go both by the name Tully, their birth name, and the name of their husbands in their roles as Lady of Winterfell/the Eyrie.

This kind of thing should happen rather often in Dorne, by the way. After all, many Princesses of Dorne should have taken consorts who were lords in their own right or heirs who eventually became lords (confirmed for Nymeria's second husband, Lord Uller of Hellholt). Which means that a child from such a union would have succeeded to Sunspear and Dorne while another would have eventually become the Lord of Hellholt or Skyreach or Starfall. The latter would have then likely gone by the name of their father whereas the child named heir of Dorne would have eventually ruled Dorne as a Prince(ss) of House Martell.

In the case of Dorne, I think there were many more Princesses of Dorne who married the second, third and fourth sons of Dornish lords and knights rather than lords and their heirs. Marrying a lord or a lord's heir is a dynastic headache in the making. It's much easier to just marry someone who can be a full-time consort rather than having to divide their time between being a consort and a lord in their own right.

Frankly, it's good because it gives these second and third sons options. The life of a consort is much more appealing than becoming a hedge knight and infinitely more appealing than a lifetime of celibacy and service on the Wall or for the Citadel.

What do you know! A healthy dose of feminism benefits everyone.

[Lord Varys]

38 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

In the case of Dorne, I think there were many more Princesses of Dorne who married the second, third and fourth sons of Dornish lords and knights rather than lords and their heirs. Marrying a lord or a lord's heir is a dynastic headache in the making. It's much easier to just marry someone who can be a full-time consort rather than having to divide their time between being a consort and a lord in their own right.

This sounds increasingly unlikely. I mean, just look at Arianne's potential husbands. We know Doran offered her a couple of elderly lords - Ben Beesbury, Walder Frey, Gyles Rosby, Eldon Estermont, and Hugh Grandison - and she herself considered marrying Willas Tyrell and tried to seduce Renly Baratheon. Hoster Tully's offer that Arianne marry his heir Edmure was rejected by Doran.

This doesn't even remotely imply the Martells limit themselves to powerless and landless second sons in their marriage policies. It seems that lordships rarely are combined in this manner for long but while a lord and a ruling lady/princess are married, they would effectively rule their domains together.

Of course, if a lord from the other side of Westeros came to live with his wife the Princess of Dorne he might give up his lordship for that and hand it over to a brother or a son from a previous marriage, but I don't think that's a given - especially not in Dorne itself. There you could rather easily live at Sunspear with your princely wife and leave your own lordship and castle(s) in the hands of castellans and steward eventually passing it own to one of your children by your Martell wife.

Also, there are those cases where we have ruling ladies north of Dorne, anyway, who end up marrying heirs/ruling lords. For instance, we do have Rohanne Webber who eventually married Gerold Lannister, the Lord of Casterly Rock. That did combine their lordships, too, although Lady Webber's lordship wasn't all that significant. Could be that Lady Rohanne is going to get a child by Ser Eustace Osgrey which will subsequently inherit Coldmoat, but we don't know that yet. 

And it isn't exactly a headache to be a lord, anyway. Ned and Renly and Stannis and Jon Arryn and Tywin and Cersei are all lords in their own right at various points, but that doesn't prevent them from spending their time, for the most part, at court. Jon and Tywin basically never lived in their castles/lands during the time they served as Hands, ruling their domains with the help of officials and relatives.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think the Lord of Winterfell would make the determination, perhaps with input from the Iron Throne. Skirmishes and minor wars are fought over this kind of thing. 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think the Lord of Winterfell would make the determination, perhaps with input from the Iron Throne. Skirmishes and minor wars are fought over this kind of thing. 

We have a pretty good example for the kind of thing with the Arryn succession during the Regency, actually. Lady Jeyne did have a last will and stipulated an heir, but he was a rather distant cousin and there were others with better claims. Yet her candidate prevailed in the end.

Could very well be that Lord Willam had also named his wife his presumptive heir while they had no children of their own - or that Lady Barbrey convinced Ned this was the case or successfully got him to acknowledge her as new Lady of Barrowton because of his guilt over her husband's death - and any other Dustins were pushed out of the window in that fashion.

Succession isn't always as smooth a thing as we were led to believe throughout most of the series. We even see in AFfC that Arianne fears her father and brother conspire to pass her over in the Dornish succession.