So what will the northman do now? Serious question since they...

[longest night]

Just now, Ser Uncle P said:

His oath was primarily to House Stark. He was renewing his oath to House Stark, as well as Jon. Jon changing titles doesn't nullify the oath to House Stark!!

 

Being a vassal means sending aid when your feudal overlord is in need. I think House Stark was in need...and Glover refused again.  

Jon isn't a Stark, and neither is Sansa.

[Ser Uncle P]

Just now, longest night said:

Jon isn't a Stark, and neither is Sansa.

House Bolton is extinct. By that rational Cersei is a Baratheon, not a Lannister.

Sansa is referred to as "Lady Stark" on numerous occasions. 

You're right, at this stage the show doesn't care about the minutae of feudal oaths. Details are for the nerds  (!) 

[longest night]

6 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said:

House Bolton is extinct. By that rational Cersei is a Baratheon, not a Lannister.

Sansa is referred to as "Lady Stark" on numerous occasions. 

You're right, at this stage the show doesn't care about the minutae of feudal oaths. Details are for the nerds  (!) 

Nope, people who marry a king or queen maintain their House name. It gives them no entitlement to the House. Whereas when a lady marries a lord, they marry into the House and take the lord's name.

Sansa being referred to as a Lady Stark is an illusion, a handwave. As Lady Mormont said, she's a Bolton. Legally she's a Bolton, not a Stark. ...or was that Lannister. There's conflicting reports.

Because in reality, she's a Lannister and was never legally married to Ramsay. She never consummated the marriage, but she never had it annulled either.

Damn the show writers are bad. As I said, Glover is playing in the stupid rules they have come up with.

[Ser Uncle P]

9 minutes ago, longest night said:

Damn the show writers are bad. As I said, Glover is playing in the stupid rules they have come up with.

I don't think they care at all about consistency in details like that.

In the books Jon would have taken the Stark name and been formally legitimised before being crowned. 

 

[Hodor's Dragon]

22 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

The Northmen will fight for independence from Southern rule until either they are ALL dead or the following conditions are met:

1. There is a mechanism in place to actually FORCE any Southern ruler to actually protect them when required. Noone sitting on the Iron Throne has ever actually helped the North face threats (various Kings beyond the wall, the Ironborn raiders etc.). The North owes no loyalty to a "Protector of the Realm" who does not protect them. IN PERPETUITY.

2. Their culture and values are treated as PART of the governing ethos, not curious sideshows.

3. They chose their own leaders. These are never imposed from the outside.

I am quite sure that this hatred of Southern rule is so deep, for the above reasons, that if Sansa does not appear to be as strongly against as they are, the Northerners will simply ditch both her and Jon and pick themselves a new leader. This is why Sansa is playing the game the way she is. It is also a defensive strategy against Cersei, to ensure that Cersei can not exploit Northern divisions to undermine herself and Jon and do the Red Wedding all over again.

 

What makes you think there's a strong hatred of Southern rule in the North? They did fine under the Targaryens for many years, and once that fell apart, then guess what, the North went to hell in a handbasket. Sure they all THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!'ed but that was a situation where they were pretty much forced to rebel and were trying to figure out what to do once they had already rebelled. They did that when the King in King's Landing was holding Ned, Sansa and Arya as outright hostages and ravaging the Riverlands with rape and plunder.

Things are different now that that Dany came and heroically sacrificed her army and risked her dragons and her own butt to save Winterfell, in full alliance with the King In the North, who has already bent the knee. I mean Westeros does have a limited but coherent system of laws, and the Nortoh is bound by its King's act to the extent there is such a thing as a kingdom in the North, and if there's not then there's no basis for rebellion.

I don't think there is. Really, Sansa expressing so strongly to Daenerys that the North would insist on its independence was, to the best of my recollection, a first for having that idea expressed strongly by a Northern leader. And I'm not sure where Sansa got this from - it's damned sure not something she has been talking in past seasons.

Ultimately, Sansa is talking rebellion. If push comes to shove, who is really with her against Dany, her surviving troops, and her dragons? Has Sansa even reached out to try to secure any allies at all? Not that I know of. And where is she if Jon isn't with her?

[a girl knows nothing]

17 minutes ago, longest night said:

Sansa being referred to as a Lady Stark is an illusion, a handwave. As Lady Mormont said, she's a Bolton. Legally she's a Bolton, not a Stark. ...or was that Lannister. There's conflicting reports.

Because in reality, she's a Lannister and was never legally married to Ramsay. She never consummated the marriage, but she never had it annulled either.

The people in charge are the ones who determine which laws/customs are going to be upheld though. Sansa seems to be one of the leading governing forces in the North for now so I think she can reclaim her Stark name and no one will argue with that. I certainly won't. Besides, Lyanna said that to her before she helped reclaim Winterfell and demonstrated her true Stark-ness.

[longest night]

6 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said:

I don't think they care at all about consistency in details like that.

In the books Jon would have taken the Stark name and been formally legitimised before being crowned. 

 

Bastards have been named king before and they legitimize themselves. However, that means the show writers would need to lessen Sansa's role and does anyone think these show writers are going to?

[longest night]

2 minutes ago, a girl knows nothing said:

The people in charge are the ones who determine which laws/customs are going to be upheld though. Sansa seems to be one of the leading governing forces in the North for now so I think she can reclaim her Stark name and no one will argue with that. I certainly won't. Besides, Lyanna said that to her before she helped reclaim Winterfell and demonstrated her true Stark-ness.

In reality, the northern lords would acknowledge Bran as lord whether he wanted it or not.

[a girl knows nothing]

11 minutes ago, longest night said:

In reality, the northern lords would acknowledge Bran as lord whether he wanted it or not.

Bran would just give them that blank stare and the dead pan "I am the three eyed raven" bit, just like he gave Sansa when she tried to tell him he was Lord of Winterfell, and they would realize he's far too weird to rule over anyone. And if they did acknowledge him as lord regardless, he would be quite an ineffective ruler seeing how he spends most his time in the Godswood warging/who knows what else. They'd have to replace him or at least supplement him with someone competent/interested in ruling.

.    

[longest night]

6 minutes ago, a girl knows nothing said:

Bran would just give them that blank stare and the dead pan "I am the three eyed raven" bit, just like he gave Sansa when she tried to tell him he was Lord of Winterfell, and they would realize he's far too weird to rule over anyone. And if they did acknowledge him as lord regardless, he would be quite an ineffective ruler seeing how he spends most his time in the Godswood warging/who knows what else. They'd have to replace him or at least supplement him with someone competent/interested in ruling.

.    

It's just strange, the show writers basically handed the... Lannisters? Boltons? Winterfell.  I am just amazed by it really. How they could screw something up... for what reason? I have yet to really see a narrative reason to force Sansa to marry a Bolton. I mean they could have had her marry Robyn, and brought the Vale forces without Littlefinger. Littlefinger could have been pushed out of the moon door for killing Lysa instead of the ridiculous thing that happened in season 7. Jon could have legitimized himself as Jon Stark.

[Ser Uncle P]

6 minutes ago, longest night said:

It's just strange, the show writers basically handed the... Lannisters? Boltons? Winterfell.  I am just amazed by it really. How they could screw something up... for what reason? I have yet to really see a narrative reason to force Sansa to marry a Bolton. 

The fake Arya plot in book V is utter crap on paper. It would be even worse on screen. 

I suppose the D's could see the major flaw in Martin's story but unfortunately came up with something even worse. 

[longest night]

Just now, Ser Uncle P said:

The fake Arya plot in book V is utter crap on paper. It would be even worse on screen. 

I suppose the D's could see the major flaw in Martin's story but unfortunately came up with something even worse. 

It's the one thing that can get Jon to break his vows to the Night's Watch, it also means that "saving Arya" is going to be his obsession once he's resurrected. It also set's up the plot of the northern conspiracy.

[divica]

Just now, Ser Uncle P said:

The fake Arya plot in book V is utter crap on paper. It would be even worse on screen. 

I suppose the D's could see the major flaw in Martin's story but unfortunately came up with something even worse. 

Not only that. We didn t have jeyne poole since the beguining. Which means that theon would stop being reek and defy ramsay for a random girl. And then he would go to the Wall with this random girl why?

However the whole sansa story also doesn t make sense...

[divica]

Just now, longest night said:

It's the one thing that can get Jon to break his vows to the Night's Watch, it also means that "saving Arya" is going to be his obsession once he's resurrected. It also set's up the plot of the northern conspiracy.

yeah but I don t think you can sell on tv that a bunch of northerns are seeing farya and not recognizing that she isn t arya. Besides the fact that you have the real arya doing things in essos.

It would be weird...

It would be better to just have everybody knowing she isn t arya and nobles going to the Wall to ask jon to break his vows because they don t want to follow the boltons and he is their last choice...

[longest night]

1 minute ago, divica said:

yeah but I don t think you can sell on tv that a bunch of northerns are seeing farya and not recognizing that she isn t arya. Besides the fact that you have the real arya doing things in essos.

It would be weird...

It would be better to just have everybody knowing she isn t arya and nobles going to the Wall to ask jon to break his vows because they don t want to follow the boltons and he is their last choice...

None of those lords would ever know she isn't Arya.

[Wik]

6 hours ago, Bradam said:

what point would invading the north serve Cersi?  Revenge I guess?  The land mass is to huge, she'd never be able to hold it.  Winter is set in, isn't any gold to steal, they are no threat to her.  There was a scene back where she was explaining to Joffery about how the north works.

This.

It's just like Russia in the Napoleonic conflict or WWII.

They have such a huge land mass, attrition will hurt any Lannister/Greyjoy army that attacks inland.

Reed's Crannogmen would likely be able to hold Callin for a LONG time vs a force marching north and even if they used their Navy it would get bogged down going through the huge wide open areas. It could be done, but it would be a huge undertaking, time consuming, massive amounts of men and materiel. Plus, who is even commanding those armies? Euron? The dude is a nut and posses ambition, and no tactical acumen. 

The war is over in the north. Everything changes south, I bet. The healing and recovery of the northern lands is underway. 

River lands destruction: TAKE 2!!!!

[divica]

Just now, longest night said:

None of those lords would ever know she isn't Arya.

If you read the book you know that.

For anyone watching the show it would sound ridiculous.

Like she is the daughter of their warden and nobody knows her face? They would need to sell that very well.

[divica]

Just now, Wik said:

River lands destruction: TAKE 2!!!!

Or euron will take advantage that the northern army left the north and start his northern invasion like balon… The show likes so much to repeat things...

[Cas Stark]

19 minutes ago, Ser Uncle P said:

The fake Arya plot in book V is utter crap on paper. It would be even worse on screen. 

I suppose the D's could see the major flaw in Martin's story but unfortunately came up with something even worse. 

I didn't mind it.  The lords wouldn't be able to know for sure who she was since too much time has passed, a fake Arya, like a fake Plantagenet is almost as good as a real one, so a fake Arya given to the Boltons to secure the North while Tywin holds Sansa in reserve for a latter double cross...worked for me.  I can see it was waaay too complicated for the show, even a show with good writers, but I'm sure they could have done something better than Sansa marrying Ramsay and the rest of the mess of that season. 

[divica]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

I didn't mind it.  The lords wouldn't be able to know for sure who she was since too much time has passed, a fake Arya, like a fake Plantagenet is almost as good as a real one, so a fake Arya given to the Boltons to secure the North while Tywin holds Sansa in reserve for a latter double cross...worked for me.  I can see it was waaay too complicated for the show, even a show with good writers, but I'm sure they could have done something better than Sansa marrying Ramsay and the rest of the mess of that season. 

I keep saying that the best solution was everybody knowing she is a fake that the boltons were trying to use in order to gain legitimacy. If the problem is how to get jon away from the NW then they should just have some northern lords ask him to take the north back from the boltons and that he is the last stark yada yada yada...

This wouldn t be to hard to sell on tv.