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Missandei’s comment - Daenerys

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As for Dany being pregnant. I can see how the "I can't have children" repeated several times might be a red herring in the show, and thus Dany realising she's with child. I disagree though with the interpretation on how MMDs prophecy has come true. Dany's journey from Essos to Westeros doesn't make the sun rise in the west, nor set in the east. She isn't the sun. Drogo was the sun. The Dothraki Sea hasn't gotten "dry". It's just empty of Dothrakis. And how the Wall = Mountains is even stranger to me. Jon's words on that prophecy ring more true to d&d's opinions about prophecies: bitter words from an angry woman.

But I don't see why such a pregnancy makes Dany "safe". Talissa wasn't "safe" either. Dany never gets to touch the IT. It's covered with Snow. And then there was her vision of Drogo and Rhaego waiting for her. She might be pregnant, but if she is it appears to me more and more that she will never even live long enough to birth the child. Just like Cersei won't live long enough to birth a 4th child.

What about Jon's heir then? Through one of his cousins imo. That's what bearclaw symbolises for me, a dynasty of rulers carrying their mother's name. That's what the female Mormonts reveal to Cat and Asha in the books. Their children are heirs, called Mormonts, and yet the name of the father is insignificant. Jon will be the last Targ, while his cousins are Starks. In the end it will be a Stark dynasty on the IT. And the 3 statues of the teaser promo hint at it. A king of winter, a lady/queen of WF, and a mother of kings.

 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As for Dany being pregnant. I can see how the "I can't have children" repeated several times might be a red herring in the show, and thus Dany realising she's with child. I disagree though with the interpretation on how MMDs prophecy has come true. Dany's journey from Essos to Westeros doesn't make the sun rise in the west, nor set in the east. She isn't the sun. Drogo was the sun. The Dothraki Sea hasn't gotten "dry". It's just empty of Dothrakis. And how the Wall = Mountains is even stranger to me. Jon's words on that prophecy ring more true to d&d's opinions about prophecies: bitter words from an angry woman.

"Prophecies are dangerous things", and they are always vague. Your interpretation feels too literal.  

But yeah, Daario shooting blanks isn't impossible either, assuming the show even bothers explaining it.
It might just throw it out the window like it did with the whole AA/tPtwP-bit. 

Quote

But I don't see why such a pregnancy makes Dany "safe". Talissa wasn't "safe" either.

Different character, different situation. Robbs and Talissas marriage was doomed from the get go, as he broke a wow and betrayed an ally by going trough with it. 

And no, it doesn't make her "safe" with a capital S, but I would increase her survival-rate by a noticeable amount if she is.

Quote

Dany never gets to touch the IT. It's covered with Snow.

And then there was her vision of Drogo and Rhaego waiting for her. She might be pregnant, but if she is it appears to me more and more that she will never even live long enough to birth the child. Just like Cersei won't live long enough to birth a 4th child.

Her vision in the house of the undying can literally be interpreted in a thousand different ways.

See my interpretation here.

Quote

What about Jon's heir then? Through one of his cousins imo. That's what bearclaw symbolises for me, a dynasty of rulers carrying their mother's name. That's what the female Mormonts reveal to Cat and Asha in the books. Their children are heirs, called Mormonts, and yet the name of the father is insignificant. Jon will be the last Targ, while his cousins are Starks. In the end it will be a Stark dynasty on the IT. And the 3 statues of the teaser promo hint at it. A king of winter, a lady/queen of WF, and a mother of kings.

So Jon doesn't get to father a child either? 
This would mean that the Targaryen name is wiped out. I'm not buying it. 
This also seems way to convoluted for the TV-series. 

Edited by MinscS2

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22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

As for Dany being pregnant. I can see how the "I can't have children" repeated several times might be a red herring in the show, and thus Dany realising she's with child. I disagree though with the interpretation on how MMDs prophecy has come true. Dany's journey from Essos to Westeros doesn't make the sun rise in the west, nor set in the east. She isn't the sun. Drogo was the sun. The Dothraki Sea hasn't gotten "dry". It's just empty of Dothrakis. And how the Wall = Mountains is even stranger to me. Jon's words on that prophecy ring more true to d&d's opinions about prophecies: bitter words from an angry woman.

But I don't see why such a pregnancy makes Dany "safe". Talissa wasn't "safe" either. Dany never gets to touch the IT. It's covered with Snow. And then there was her vision of Drogo and Rhaego waiting for her. She might be pregnant, but if she is it appears to me more and more that she will never even live long enough to birth the child. Just like Cersei won't live long enough to birth a 4th child.

What about Jon's heir then? Through one of his cousins imo. That's what bearclaw symbolises for me, a dynasty of rulers carrying their mother's name. That's what the female Mormonts reveal to Cat and Asha in the books. Their children are heirs, called Mormonts, and yet the name of the father is insignificant. Jon will be the last Targ, while his cousins are Starks. In the end it will be a Stark dynasty on the IT. And the 3 statues of the teaser promo hint at it. A king of winter, a lady/queen of WF, and a mother of kings.

 

1. My take on the MMD Prophecy:

  • When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When you're at the north pole, east and west are wherever you say they are because all directions are south at that point. Dany was falling for Jon, but it wasn't until he was dragged into the water by wights during Operation Wight/Drogon Rescue while fighting to make sure everyone else was safe, that she fell hard/completely in love with him. NORTH. FAR NORTH. Where every direction is south.
  • When the rivers run dry. When they're frozen. In the far north. Where every direction is south.
  • And mountains blow in the wind, like leaves. When the mountains are snow, in the far north, where every direction is south.

2. The House of the Undying (show version):

  • Exactly. She is in a burnt out wreck of the Red Keep. (Dragon fire or Wildfire? I'm going with dragon fire.) She reaches for, but never touches the Snow-covered Iron Throne (obviously because it's not hers, and never has been, because Jon is alive.)
  • She then is called north of The Wall by the cries of one of her children.
  • Where she finds her Sun & Stars alive and well, with a live, dark haired child in his arms.
  • She then repeats MMD's prophecy, because she believes it's all an illusion and can't possibly be true....

3. Cersei v Dany:

Cersei: I believe she was pregnant, but has lost the child. She also hasn't had any more periods following her miscarriage, because she's hit menopause, which would give a reason for Olenna's line to Tywin back in S4(?) It would also explain her odd emotional reaction to Euron when he said, "I'm going to put a prince in your belly." (But I think she might hang on to the lie that she's pregnant for as long as she can.)

I also believe she's the final boss, and on track to be Aerys 2.0. Jamie is the Valonqar, not Tyrion, and due to Cersei's narcissistic limited vision, it never occurred to her that she was born before Jamie, making Jamie also her younger sibling. 

When all is said and done, Jamie will have saved the world three times:

  • When he killed Aerys.
  • When he pushed Bran out of the window, creating the Three Eyed Raven who was key in defeating the Night King, and will also be key to defeating Cersei.
  • When he kills Cersei before she can blow up Kings Landing.

There's only room for one mad queen. Two would not only be redundant, but would be a horribly sexist message that women in power can't handle breaking through the final glass ceiling and go insane. That's the last thing I see George or the show runners doing, especially in a story where all the women are in some way amazing warriors. 

Dany:

Now that they've all survived and have defeated the Night King, she will realize how wonderful it is that she's in love with not only the son of the brother she's idolized and spent most of her life regretting she never knew, and got stuck with the nut job instead. But also the actual heir to the Seven Kingdoms, which not only strengthens her family's claim, but will united the North.

Jon and Dany will marry and rule together. She's definitely pregnant. However, at the end of ep 6, she will go the way of Lyanna Stark, and die of complications of child birth. Maybe right away, maybe within a week (like Jane Seymour), leaving Jon a single parent, and Davos the Child Whisperer.

 

 

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17 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

If they did that I wouldn’t consider it bittersweet, it would be depressing. Dany has sacrificed everything to sit on the chair, she’s lost loved one and family. Tens of thousands have willingly sacrificed themselves in her name. If Dany fails in her quest to get the throne then they all died in vain.

Jon hasn’t. His arc was about fighting the Others. In his own words he never cared about the throne. So he’s done what he needed to do. He is at his journeys end. The revelation that he is Rhaegars son doesn’t matter. He’s done nothing to earn the throne and it wouldn’t be an achievement for him to take it by default.

All that would happen is for us the audience to be shown a cruel twist of fate rob her and an undeserving fool on the throne. 

 

 

Disagree. This would be bittersweet. Rather than Dany going mad she talks Jon into being married and united, no fighting between them. They are King and Queen, both considered rightful heirs. If they defeat Cersei and Dany is pregnant, something she thought she'd never be again; dying is a bittersweet end. Shes Queen, shes married to someone she loves, has a child, but doesnt get to enjoy it-basically an embodiement of what was with Drogo, and another embodiment of Lyanna Stark, Jon's mother.

Jon never wanting to be King and becoming King is bittersweet. He was raised believing he'd never have anything, and now at least show wise, hes a bastard that's been named King in the North and now discovers hes the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. But he doesn't want it, which makes him a good candidate for King because he will consider what's best for the people first and not himself.

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49 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

"Prophecies are dangerous things", and they are always vague. Your interpretation feels too literal. 


But yeah, Daario shooting blanks isn't impossible either, assuming the show even bothers explaining it.
It might just throw it out the window like it did with the whole AA/tPtwP-bit. 

Different character, different situation. Robbs and Talissas marriage was doomed from the get go, as he broke a wow and betrayed an ally by going trough with it. 

And no, it doesn't make her "safe" with a capital S, but I would increase her survival-rate by a noticeable amount if she is.

Her vision in the house of the undying can literally be interpreted in a thousand different ways.

See my interpretation here.

So Jon doesn't get to father a child either? 
This would mean that the Targaryen name is wiped out. I'm not buying it. 
This also seems way to convoluted for the TV-series. 

For the books I see far more potential for the prophecy coming true in some weird way (think the ham joke for the AA prophecy of being born amongst smoke, etc). As for the show - the sun line could work with the Karstark sigil being carried into WF in epi1. I can give you the Dothraki dying as a "drying" in some way. And I'm more inclined to expect some shot where the Mountain dies amidst a flurry of leaves in the wind. So, I'm not raelly having an issue with that prophecy coming true, but the imagery you used to argue it has come true already.

Sure, Robb having an heir was doomed, so was Bran and Rickon apparently. Cersei producing a lasting dynasty is also doomed. Why are you so sure that Targs having heirs isn't doomed? And yup, to me both Dany and Jon come across more and more as last tragic figures of the Targ dynasty, a remnant of the past, but at least bridging characters for something new. The Targaryen dynasty was never much of a Westeros dynasty, a recent one from another empire that ended up conquering Westeros, but never fully integrated itself into Westeros, with their exceptionalism. Dany's journey parallels that. And if dragons die out like the WWs, then there is no need whatsoever for a dynasty of dragonlords, let alone incest babies to ride and birth dragons anew. Dany is the embodiment of sibling incest, of 100% fire, a foreign dynasty. But she doesn't get to touch the throne (and unlike verbal prophecies, we actually saw her future), and instead it's covered with Snow, and not just Jon, but what could be seen as a dynasty of kings of winter. However, in order for kings of winter to sit the throne, you turn toward a dynasty of the name Stark. So, yeah, I do think the Targ name in the end will be wiped out, though Jon may reign long, I do see him continue to live much in honor of his vows.

It doesn't have to be convulated in the TV-series. Gendry's a bastard, and Arya is a trueborn Stark looking like a Stark. They can just have Jon decide that her child will be his heir. The Wolf Pack theme wasn't seeded for nothing at the start of the season imo. 

Spoiler

One of the leaks has a mother who dies and very young twin child actors (to play the same part) having been casted, and it's rumored Maisie filmed with them, before she flew to Itaca for the dragonpit scene. That sounds like a Weasel plot to me. And imo d&d only would do that to portray Arya as having mother qualities. Sure, could be she becomes Lady Baratheon, but I doubt that.

The Starks have been portrayed as underdogs, the least to do with the Iron Throne, the family that seemingly had been killed, and yet they are First Men, a dynasty that somehow managed to survive Westerosi wars for 8000 years.

Ultimately this is a story of the conflict between ice (wws) & fire (dragons), the character who has a lineage of both (Targ & Stark), but also a song (Arya's name is a song) about the events didn't lead to a status quo but something different, while the Starks (and the Greyjoys) are the sole families that are both repeatedly portrayed as ending up being called Kings of some territory, while equally never actively veying for the Iron Throne (not even Robb). 

Edited by sweetsunray

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8 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

.... The obvious implication is that "The Mad King" did not necessarily earn his name by burning people alive, by seeing traitors everywhere, or by refusing to cut his fingernails. He earned it when he accused one of his well-intentioned advisors of treason one too many times, as Dany has been doing to Tyrion with some regularity for two seasons now.

Was Tyrion out of line to broach the subject of Dany's succession? Unless someone is going to take up the position that Tyrion was, in fact, hopeful for Dany to die, as Dany accused him, then I don't understand why people are confused that fans are jumping off the Daenerys Express in droves.

Does anyone honestly believe, as Dany seems eager to believe, that Tyrion is plotting with Cersei to betray Daenerys? 

It's absolutely absurd to me that it has taken this long for people to recognize Hitler On A Dragon, and beyond absurd that even now there are still people defending her every move.

How many parallels do the writers have to draw between Dany and her father before we begin to think, hey, maybe all this talk about "I'm not my father" is the opposite of true?

I have to agree with most of your post. I'm finding it also absurd how there's a total lack of objective analysis when it comes to Dany. I wouldn't quite say she has gotten to "hitler on a dragon" levels... but i can ABSOLUTELY imagine the next three episodes taking her that way. There is plenty of time for scriptwriters to do that across three feature film length episodes... and its not at all without its foreshadowing!
It's a song of Ice and Fire... We've just had the Icy threat defeated... I absolutely am awaiting the 'fire' threat to be defeated in the next three episodes. I thought it might be Cersei and wildfire, but we've already had two massive Wildfire boomboom moments & it doesn't feel spectacular enough to do a third, its just too predictable... so I'm increasingly of the mind that it will be Dany and her Dragons finally going overboard, and burning cities to the ground, just like she vowed to do. She is at her core, vengeful about what happened to her family... she speaks FAR more of her motivation to exact that revenge and take back what is 'hers', than she does about her vision for a new Westeros, other than "break the wheel", ... and when pressed by Tyrion in it, (and her succession), she acts angry and paranoid. It just aint up for discussion... which is weird, unless she no longer cares about breaking any wheel..?
And there's gonna be a lot of people yelling and raging that they didn't see Dany's descent into mad queen coming, that it 'came out of nowhere'... when it really hasn't. People have waaaaay too strong a blindspot for Dany and her volatility, singlemindedness and calculated brutality. 

7 hours ago, For Highgarden said:

Thank You! I also wonder if people forget the coin flip analogy? Jon and Dany both have a 50/50 shot at being "mad".....

..... She lost her most trusted advisor and is left with her least trusted. This in turn could easily breed more paranoia of which she already has plenty. The last few seasons all of her "good" choices were made by her advisors against her actual wishes. What happens when she stops listening to them completely? There is a reason they have set up conflict between Dany and two of Jon's closest people.  Dany vs. Sansa will come up again and I am sure Sam will be there to have some input as well.

If I talk to anyone outside this forum about the possibility of Dany going mad they lose their freaking minds like there is zero foreshadowing for it in the show and I have to stop spoiling their t.v. with my book learning. 

She said to Sansa that there was only one other man whom she ever trusted more than Jon... and it sounded like she was talking past tense, so I presumed that was Drogon. I don't think Jorah ever quite made it back to 'most trusted' after he fed info back to Varys. She loves him yes, but the real clincher will now be if she starts getting paranoid towards Jon.
I think she will.... I think Sansa's interaction with her on top of Jon having a stronger claim to the throne will get her twitchy about the Starks. She has watched people treat the Starks as their leaders in front of her; undermining her authority in practice, if not in words... the plan to capture a wight scene, she basically had NO say on it, her advisors rallied around Jon right in front of her & left her feebly pointing out that he hadn't asked her permission (when Jorah hadn't either. No-one had!)... The scenes with the Northern Houses with wee Umber lad addressing her last, like an afterthought... Theon turning up to serve Sansa... Everyone deciding to do the opposite with Jaime that she wanted to do, she was ineffective as ruler in that scene... Sansa's interactions with her... She's basically called herself queen but no-one is treating her like one. This is gonna continue to trigger her majorly if it keeps up.... and it soooo will!

The upcoming episode where she addresses the Northern houses about going down to rip Cersei out root and stem I think will be another hammerblow to her sense of rule... i think she'll get pilloried....(that trailer has been edited to look like they're cheering her, but they're two different scenes... I'll bet the cheers are for a Stark...) and if she isn't visibly distraught about what happened to the Dothraki and the Unsullied,  (and she really should be, if she's not going mad) then more people will start turning on her.

I have only watched the show, and I see LOADS of foreshadowing. Just looking at her words and actions objectively, she has always had a 'ooh, is she gonna turn out her like her Dad" question mark over her, just based on her words and deeds & that obsessive rageyness she has going on.

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Posted (edited)

@Figdoni This "lack of objective analysis" goes both ways, trust me.

While there's certainly been hints at her possibly going mad in the end, Daenerys isn't allowed to show normal feelings such as anger, suspicion, frustration etc. before the anti-Daenerys brigade starts pulling out the "Daenerys is going mad"-cards from their pockets:

"Daenerys is angry because Cersei lied to her. Omg she's going mad, I knew it."
"Daenerys is frustrated at Tyrion because he's been a useless adviser. Mad Queen 2.0 confirmed."
"Daenerys pushes Varys about the fact that he switches allegiances more often than he switches underpants, Uh-oh!"
Etc. etc.

Ultimately, despite all her perceived madness, Daenerys does (or at least tries to do) far more good than evil, but without being thoroughly good and one-sided. She tries to do what she perceives to be the right thing, but comes across as ruthless and callous when dealing with people she considers her enemy, and doesn't always think things trough.
This morally grey approach is one of the main reason why so many either like or dislike her, and is why we, after seven seasons, still are unsure how she ultimately will end up, and why we're still having this sort of discussion. 
 

Edited by MinscS2

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Figdoni said:

he upcoming episode where she addresses the Northern houses about going down to rip Cersei out root and stem I think will be another hammerblow to her sense of rule... i think she'll get pilloried....(that trailer has been edited to look like they're cheering her, but they're two different scenes... I'll bet the cheers are for a Stark...) and if she isn't visibly distraught about what happened to the Dothraki and the Unsullied,  (and she really should be, if she's not going mad) then more people will start turning on her.

Dany does that root and stem speech in the library-war room, and imo to the Stark leaders and the councilors. I really don't see Sansa jumping for joy to send the war fatigued Northerners immediately South, even if Jon feels honor bound to it, especially after Dany lost basically almost all her troops against the AotD. So, this surely will cause tension in epi 4.

The celebration scene with Dany in a red dress lifting her cup: the chairs beside her are empty. You don't see Jon or Sansa beside her. They must be someplace else. My guess is that either Sansa tries to reason with Jon to give the Northerners a time of reprieve, to not just immediately go barging up against Cersei (which is what Cersei is preparing for). OR Jon's cousins finding out who he is. OR possibly something with Gendry (they kept him alive for a reason for at least 1 more episode, other than a romantic arc with Arya imo). Regardless what they are doing at that time: you don't actually see a united Stark-Targ leadership at the head table in the feast hall.

And then there's a scene where you see Dany's stormy face walking away angry from Varys, in the same red dress she wears on that feast.

Then we have a shot of Dany appearing to fly off with her dragons, and a shot of Jon on a horse riding through the gate with Davos. So, something's surely up between Dany and the Starks and it won't appear as if anyone is happy about it.

And then you have that wildcard of Bronn being hired for an assassination of both Cersei's brothers, so I expect him to show up as well, and this having an impact on Tyrion and Jaime, possibly even Jaime dying.

Edited by sweetsunray

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8 hours ago, LucyMormont said:

 Dany has not to be paranoid to distrust Tyrion, whose behaviour IS suspicious, or at least, not consistent with what we know of him. 

Where is the Tyrion of the first two seasons, the one whose intelligence we saw in action, not just by "witty remarks", but effectively taking control of the people and circumstances around him?

So "or you are a fool, or you are a traitor" is what anyone with a working brain cell would think.

6 hours ago, MinscS2 said:


- His conversations about Daenerys going mad with Varys, he's seemingly trying to convince himself that he did the right choice. 
- The way he looked on the boat when he realized that Daenerys and Jon where getting it on, a look of pure disapproval. 
- The way he looked when the Lannisters, including Jamie, was getting their asses handed during the field of battle.
- The way he has continuously been making decisions and giving bad advice since S6.
- The way we didn't get to know what he and Cersei had been talking about in S7E7.


And then the major one: Technically he admitted to having betrayed Daenerys (in a sense) back in S7, when he told Cersei that "Daenerys didn't want to bring you words, she wanted to bring you fire and blood, until I adviced her otherwise, I don't want to destroy our family, I never have"
This is actually Tyrion admitting that he's actively been throwing monkey wrenches in the works, regarding Daenerys invasion plans, because while he does want Daenerys to win, he doesn't want his siblings to die in the process, so he's actively giving Daenerys bad advice, which culminated in the whole wight-hunt, which most of us would agree on being the single most idiotic thing anyones ever come up with in this show.

7 hours ago, Amaretto said:

Tyrion may be sincere in his devotion to Dany, but every piece of advice he has given her has either been wrong or worse than useless. He has to be the worst hand on record. From her perspective he must either be a traitor or a total liability to her cause. Admittedly, this is probably a result of poor writing as the show keeps emphasising how smart Tyrion is supposed to be. 


Disagree. He is still very much the Tyrion in the earlier seasons. He is still the Tyrion she hired as her hand... and it's really worth re-watching those scenes... at the beginning he tells her explicitly that he's undecided about her. He's very, very clear about the fact that his only reason to consider following or helping her at all is down to what Varys told him about her being a hope of a new kind of ruler, a new kind of Westeros... he wants to believe that's true.... but he needs her to convince him. He even states that he had wanted to die on the boat over to Essos, so if she really is like Vary's says, he might feel a reason to want to live... but if she's not like that, its no biggie to him if she kills him. 

There is NO blind faith in Danaery's... there's no allegiance because of her claim to the throne... there's no loyalty to her Targaryan blood... Tyrions ONLY loyalty towards her is based on the ensuing conversation with her...  the person she professes to be... the kind of ruler she promises to be... the kind of queen she convinces him that she will be.
And in that conversation where she decides not to kill him, but to make him her hand to advise her, she tells him she wants to break the wheel.
THAT is what Tyrion has agreed to help her do... break the wheel... to be a just ruler for the good of the realm.
THAT is what Tyrion signs up for, nothing else.
And EVERYTHING he has done and advised has been towards that aim and really that aim alone.
He's not advising Dany just to get her the throne, but to make sure she goes about it the right way, for her vision comes to pass.

There's been no major mistakes either that weren't mistakes that anyone could have made (like Casterly Rock, or Cersei... no-one saw either of those coming)
But he convinced her to unchain her dragons, convinced her to bring change Slavers bay more slowly, consistently tries to stop her killing everyone she's angry with or disagrees with, stops her from torching Kings Landing, and most critical -, convinces her to take the wights seriously. She didn't give a monkeys about "jon's war" until she saw them for herself. Tyrion was wholly responsible for that. If Tyrion hadn't done that, the North would have been wiped out and the AotD grown even more massive while Dany and Cersei would be battling like the stuff up North was some exaggerated story that didn't matter. 
Dany's biggest mistakes were when she didn't ask for his advice, or went against it.

He has stayed consistent in trying to help her achieve the bigger picture of what she claims to want... but it is actually her who is looking less like that Dany he pledged loyalty to... Its absolutely no wonder he and Varys are growing concerned. 
Tyrion, Varys and Jon are the three characters in GOT who have consistently, at every point, cared most about the bigger picture, the realm, the people. Would they betray Danaerys if she becomes a threat or a problem for the people? Absolutely.
Their loyalty is fundamentally towards an honorable idea of a better future, not to a bloodline. If she shows herself a threat to that honorable idea, she's going to have to lose the loyalty of the three of them, if they are to stay within their characters, as they've been portrayed across all the seasons. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

@Figdoni This "lack of objective analysis" goes both ways, trust me.

While there's certainly been hints at her possibly going mad in the end, Daenerys isn't allowed to show normal feelings such as anger, suspicion, frustration etc. before the anti-Daenerys brigade starts pulling out the "Daenerys is going mad"-cards from their pockets:

"Daenerys is angry because Cersei lied to her. Omg she's going mad, I knew it."
"Daenerys is frustrated at Tyrion because he's been a useless adviser. Mad Queen 2.0 confirmed."
"Daenerys pushes Varys about the fact that he switches allegiances more often than he switches underpants, Uh-oh!"
Etc. etc.

Ultimately, despite all her perceived madness, Daenerys does (or at least tries to do) far more good than evil, but without being thoroughly good and one-sided. She tries to do what she perceives to be the right thing, but comes across as ruthless and callous when dealing with people she considers her enemy, and doesn't always think things trough.
This morally grey approach is one of the main reason why so many either like or dislike her, and is why we, after seven seasons, still are unsure how she ultimately will end up, and why we're still having this sort of discussion. 
 

It's not the fact of her being angry or frustrated... it's where and how she directs that anger and frustration.
She's not mad at Cersei for lying to her, she's instead looking for someone to blame & attack over it. (when she's equally culpable, as is Jon & everyone else who was there)
She's not recognising any of the good advice Tyrion gave her... the only advice that she seems to care about is advice that gets her on the throne asap.

Jon also tries to do what he perceives to be the right thing, but manages to do so without coming across as ruthless or callous, no matter how angry or frustrated he gets. It's hard to picture him thinking it a good idea to torch Kings Landing. It's hard to picture him ripping Sam or Davos or Sansa a new arsehole coz they were (god forbid) wrong about something. It's hard to picture him torching the Tarlys. It's hard to picture him putting the iron throne higher up the priorities than the impending death to every human. Hard to picture him promising to lay waste to armies and torch cities to the ground.

Who can we picture doing those things? Cersei... for sure
But yet its Dany, the supposed hero, doing those things. Why is that not a problem for you?

Comparing Dany to Jon at this point should be throwing up some 'uh-ohs' for viewers... and we're supposed to since that convo between Sam and Jon making a direct comparison between them...


 

Edited by Figdoni

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1 hour ago, Christi84 said:

Disagree. This would be bittersweet. Rather than Dany going mad she talks Jon into being married and united, no fighting between them. They are King and Queen, both considered rightful heirs. If they defeat Cersei and Dany is pregnant, something she thought she'd never be again; dying is a bittersweet end. Shes Queen, shes married to someone she loves, has a child, but doesnt get to enjoy it-basically an embodiement of what was with Drogo, and another embodiment of Lyanna Stark, Jon's mother.

Jon never wanting to be King and becoming King is bittersweet. He was raised believing he'd never have anything, and now at least show wise, hes a bastard that's been named King in the North and now discovers hes the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. But he doesn't want it, which makes him a good candidate for King because he will consider what's best for the people first and not himself.

 

That’s not a fulfilling end to Danys story. You could have written her out of the plot line entirely and replaced her with Ygritte or any other female character. Jon would have restored House Targaryen on his own. It’s not romantic for Dany to die in childbirth. She might as well have just stayed in Drogos tent and saved herself the trouble. What’s the moral of the story here? 

Jon getting everything he ever wanted: beating the Others and becoming King, with all the bad people who called him a bastard bowing to him is a power fantasy not some tragic fate for Jon. Almost all of his family survived the war. You are telling that Dany has sacrificed everything to put this boy on the Iron Throne?

Jon is a failure. He failed to be a ranger, he failed to be Lord Commander and he lost the Battle of the Bastards. He failed to stop the Night King. He has entirely relied upon other people bailing him out and has not borne the consequences of his failures. He is not Aragorn. He does not deserve to be King. I would rather see Gendry and Arya on the throne than him.

Dany is not thinking of herself when she says she has to take the throne. I don’t think Dany is lying when she talks about breaking the wheel and freeing slaves?

Edited by Tyrion1991

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33 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Dany does that root and stem speech in the library-war room, and imo to the Stark leaders and the councilors. I really don't see Sansa jumping for joy to send the war fatigued Northerners immediately South, even if Jon feels honor bound to it, especially after Dany lost basically almost all her troops against the AotD. So, this surely will cause tension in epi 4.

The celebration scene with Dany in a red dress lifting her cup: the chairs beside her are empty. You don't see Jon or Sansa beside her. They must be someplace else. My guess is that either Sansa tries to reason with Jon to give the Northerners a time of reprieve, to not just immediately go barging up against Cersei (which is what Cersei is preparing for). OR Jon's cousins finding out who he is. OR possibly something with Gendry (they kept him alive for a reason for at least 1 more episode, other than a romantic arc with Arya imo). Regardless what they are doing at that time: you don't actually see a united Stark-Targ leadership at the head table in the feast hall.

And then there's a scene where you see Dany's stormy face walking away angry from Varys, in the same red dress she wears on that feast.

Then we have a shot of Dany appearing to fly off with her dragons, and a shot of Jon on a horse riding through the gate with Davos. So, something's surely up between Dany and the Starks and it won't appear as if anyone is happy about it.

And then you have that wildcard of Bronn being hired for an assassination of both Cersei's brothers, so I expect him to show up as well, and this having an impact on Tyrion and Jaime, possibly even Jaime dying.

My takes on the trailer.... 

S8E4 Trailer

  • First Cersei, with Euron behind her, are overlooking the courtyards of the Red Keep, with, I'm assuming The Golden Company? They're not in any kind of formation like actual troops would be, but then they're just sell swords.. or... ? 
  • Sansa looking at the Unsullied marching through (exiting?) Winterfell, while others are doing cleanup. Are they on their way outside for the Funeral for the Fallen? 
  • Sansa & Arya (with Gendry behind them), then Jon, likely at the Funeral for the Fallen, as Dany speaks of winning, "The Last War", obviously from another scene with Missandei and Varys beside her.
  • The Feast scene. Seems like a wedding to me, and I just can't shake that feeling. 
  • She pets Drogon. Maybe they're eating better now that his sibling is at rest and no longer possessed by the NK?
  • Arya kissing Gendry. (Yay!)
  • Wide shot of the Funeral for the Fallen... everyone is there, a united front, including Dany, Jon, & Sansa with torches.
  • Dany walking looking serious/determined... no sign of Varys, so no idea where you saw that part. (0:19)
  • Riderless Rhaegal flying over Dany's fleet.... sailing to Kings Landing I assume. End of the episode?
  • Euron seems to be begging/imploring Cersei... did she tell/(lie) to him that she's pregnant, and he's proposing?
  • Sansa watching Drogon and (wounded) Rhaegal flying outside Winterfell.... as the rest depart to fight The Last War? She's the Stark that is left who must be in Winterfell? Is Bran going south? Seems he wargs a dragon over Kings Landing at some point per his vision. Brans Vision S4E2 (1:20) 
  • Jon & Davos exiting Winterfell... 
  • Dany's fleet sailing.... south?
  • Dany next to Drogon, almost smiling, looking up in wonder.... at Jon?
  • Cersei looking evil and crazy. 

I don't see the Stark/Dany rift you do. 

As for Bronn..... I really feel this will be the worst miscalculation of all of Cersei's miscalculations.... As Bronn says when Qyburn makes the offer, "This fucking family...." No way is Bronn going to betray either Lannister brother because he knows them both to be honorable men who aren't insane idiots, and he's been around long enough that if left to her own devices, Cersei will eventually set herself on fire and take the world with her. And seriously... with a CROSSBOW???? remember what Yoren said about crossbows.... "too long to load."

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

That’s not a fulfilling end to Danys story. You could have written her out of the plot line entirely and replaced her with Ygritte or any other female character. Jon would have restored House Targaryen on his own. It’s not romantic for Dany to die in childbirth. She might as well have just stayed in Drogos tent and saved herself the trouble. What’s the moral of the story here? 

Jon getting everything he ever wanted: beating the Others and becoming King, with all the bad people who called him a bastard bowing to him is a power fantasy not some tragic fate for Jon. Almost all of his family survived the war. You are telling that Dany has sacrificed everything to put this boy on the Iron Throne?

Jon is a failure. He failed to be a ranger, he failed to be Lord Commander and he lost the Battle of the Bastards. He failed to stop the Night King. He has entirely relied upon other people bailing him out and has not borne the consequences of his failures. He is not Aragorn. He does not deserve to be King. I would rather see Gendry and Arya on the throne than him.

Dany is not thinking of herself when she says she has to take the throne. I don’t think Dany is lying when she talks about breaking the wheel and freeing slaves?

You're not being objective here at all, just stating what you would rather see happening. Im not in the Jon or Dany camp, but even a blind person would agree that Jon would be the better king, out of the two. People are following him and rallying around him, and it looks so easy, so natural, even without having dragons, or a fancy family name, even though he is just a bastard. 

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39 minutes ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

You're not being objective here at all, just stating what you would rather see happening. Im not in the Jon or Dany camp, but even a blind person would agree that Jon would be the better king, out of the two. People are following him and rallying around him, and it looks so easy, so natural, even without having dragons, or a fancy family name, even though he is just a bastard. 

 

Which is a plot hole. They should realise he’s an idiot and failure instead of heaping praise on him and bailing him out of his mistakes. Why was he not called out for almost dooming everyone at the BoB? Why was he able to abandon the NW without another word and abandon his responsibility for petty revenge; something he’s wanted to do since the first season? So much for let the boy die. He is a fool just like his father was and Rhaegar died.

Plus you’re neglecting to mention that much of that support has come from him being a Stark and specifically Ned Starks son. Which he isn’t. The Wildlings are the only group he actually won over on his own merits. The NW actually killed him. Funny, that he’s actually lying to the North this entire time and has no claim over Bran or Sansa.

Dany only got full grown dragons in season 6. She has earned and sacrificed to get where she is. Her title has, actually never been a help to her. Certainly not in Essos and given that Westeros didn’t think twice about Cersei being Queen it’s a total hinderance as it makes her the Mad Kings daughter. If she had simply been The Breaker of Chains from Essos her job would have been a lot easier.

 

 

Edited by Tyrion1991

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ShadowKitteh said:

My takes on the trailer.... 

S8E4 Trailer

  • First Cersei, with Euron behind her, are overlooking the courtyards of the Red Keep, with, I'm assuming The Golden Company? They're not in any kind of formation like actual troops would be, but then they're just sell swords.. or... ? 
  • Sansa looking at the Unsullied marching through (exiting?) Winterfell, while others are doing cleanup. Are they on their way outside for the Funeral for the Fallen? 
  • Sansa & Arya (with Gendry behind them), then Jon, likely at the Funeral for the Fallen, as Dany speaks of winning, "The Last War", obviously from another scene with Missandei and Varys beside her.
  • The Feast scene. Seems like a wedding to me, and I just can't shake that feeling. 
  • She pets Drogon. Maybe they're eating better now that his sibling is at rest and no longer possessed by the NK?
  • Arya kissing Gendry. (Yay!)
  • Wide shot of the Funeral for the Fallen... everyone is there, a united front, including Dany, Jon, & Sansa with torches.
  • Dany walking looking serious/determined... no sign of Varys, so no idea where you saw that part. (0:19)
  • Riderless Rhaegal flying over Dany's fleet.... sailing to Kings Landing I assume. End of the episode?
  • Euron seems to be begging/imploring Cersei... did she tell/(lie) to him that she's pregnant, and he's proposing?
  • Sansa watching Drogon and (wounded) Rhaegal flying outside Winterfell.... as the rest depart to fight The Last War? She's the Stark that is left who must be in Winterfell? Is Bran going south? Seems he wargs a dragon over Kings Landing at some point per his vision. Brans Vision S4E2 (1:20) 
  • Jon & Davos exiting Winterfell... 
  • Dany's fleet sailing.... south?
  • Dany next to Drogon, almost smiling, looking up in wonder.... at Jon?
  • Cersei looking evil and crazy. 

I don't see the Stark/Dany rift you do. 

As for Bronn..... I really feel this will be the worst miscalculation of all of Cersei's miscalculations.... As Bronn says when Qyburn makes the offer, "This fucking family...." No way is Bronn going to betray either Lannister brother because he knows them both to be honorable men who aren't insane idiots, and he's been around long enough that if left to her own devices, Cersei will eventually set herself on fire and take the world with her. And seriously... with a CROSSBOW???? remember what Yoren said about crossbows.... "too long to load."

 

 

There's a visual of Dany speeching in her light "furry" manteau when she says "root and stem" next to Missandei and Varys. I've seen pics for epi 4 and then you see that's in the library set, not the feast hall.

Feast hall where everybody cheers: empty chairs next to Dany.

Dany walks away with serious/storm face in the red dress in a hallway. In the background stands an out of focus Varys.

Jon is certainly not leaving together with Dany, though they arrived together. The army you see marching out of WF courtyard at the start are Unsullied, not a Northern army. And afterwards likely sail off on Dany's ships (the shot of her ships with Targ dragons on it)

The images you see are not in chronological order.

I also am not inclined to see Bronn do it, but you never know. Regardless on whether he does or not, you think he's going to keep his mouth shut about what Cersei paid him for?

Edited by sweetsunray

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

The Tyrion I know has a hopeless desire to love and be loved by his sister. Tyrion knows that Cersei's hatred toward him is rooted in the fact that their mother died giving birth to him. It's both completely unreasonable and completely understandable, because Cersei was still a young girl.

Cersei has grown into an adult, but her unreasonable hatred has not grown into reasonable forgiveness. She clings to her unreasonable hatred of Tyrion and the emotional reasoning that produced it because, having treated Tyrion so poorly for so long, she feels that she must continue treating him poorly or else contradict the comfortable fiction that Cersei The Girl never did anything wrong to begin with.

I see it differently, you paint Cercei way too good. Cercei's hatred towards Tyrion is rooten firstly in him being a dwarf, a black mark in all that Lannister beauty and perfection. Tyrion is way too used to that, not only from Cercei but from almost everybody else, including Tywin. A girl who tortures a baby, no matter how young and in grief the girl is, doesn't deserve my pity. And while Tyrion deep down might  want to be loved by his sister and having been loved by his father, to have the desire  that things would have been different, he is way too smart and cynical to fool himself. This is the sister who wanted her head and did everything she could to get it, quick in accusing him of murdering Joffrey without a single proof. This is the woman who blew up a sept full of people, including Lannisters, and who didn't show a drop of grief for his last son, even saying "he betrayed me".

And Tyrion knows exactly who she is. 

Quote

Tyrion has always trusted Cersei, and that was demonstrated recently in Season 7 when he entered the lion's den and challenged her to execute him. She failed that challenge, reaffirming Tyrion's certainty that some part of her loves him or at least appreciates the fact that he loves her enough to risk certain death by walking into that room alone and unarmed to negotiate a war that he could easily win without negotiation if only he were as willing to kill her as she pretends to want to kill him.

What mistakes are we condemning Tyrion for, exactly? That he believed Cersei when she said she was going to send an army north? We all saw that meeting. Tyrion wasn't the only one who believed her. Dany believed her. Jon believed her. Everyone believed her. Sansa even references this in episode 2 when Dany brings it up.

"He shouldn't have trusted Cersei."
"You shouldn't have trusted her either."

And what was the alternative anyway? Not believe her? Cersei is agreeing to do exactly what they asked her to do. Why should Tyrion, Dany or Jon refuse Cersei's offer to do exactly what Tyrion, Dany and Jon asked her to do? If they were going to call Cersei a liar regardless of Cersei's response, then why did they bother asking in the first place? This criticism just doesn't make sense from any angle I can see.

I fail to remember  when Tyrion trusted Cercei before S 7.

In season 7, he took the risk because somehow he wanted her to agree to a truce, just to be able to get Dany north. And she "failed" to kill him, because Dany, her dragons and her armies were outside, they had come under a white flag to parlay, and killing her Hand would be very stupid when in that moment she had almost no army left. 

Trusting Cercei was only the last of his mistakes. And Dany didn't trust Cercei, she trusted her Hand; and the same can be said from all the others. This was always a Tyrion plan, and they all got along, trusting that he knew his sister. 

His first mistake, and bad advice as her Hand, was to prevent her from going directly to the Red Keep with her dragons and burn it to the ground.  That would have been the quickest way to win the Throne, and would have saved countless lives, including all Lannister soldiers, the Reach soldiers, Yara people, etc, and the smallfolk of the whole 7 Kingdoms.

The Red Keep is not King's Landing, is a very acceptable military target; as it were Stannis ships when Tyrion used all that wildfire in the Battle of Blackwater. And I believe he prevented her to do the most obvious thing, just for personal reasons: Jaime could have been there too. It's completely understandable, he loves his brother, and he owes him too. But, he really did give a shitty advice, because he valued Jaime's life above all Dany's allies lives.

From then on, all the military strategies were Tyrion's: to send Yara to get Dorne and Reach soldiers to put Kings Landing under siege (as if starving the entire population was in some way better than burning some 200 ppl in the Red Keep!), to send the Unsullied to Casterly Rock, etc. The outcome was Dany losing all her allies. And someone has yet to explain me how is that  Cercei's side had way better intel than Dany's side.

Edited by LucyMormont

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3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Which is a plot hole. They should realise he’s an idiot and failure instead of heaping praise on him and bailing him out of his mistakes. Why was he not called out for almost dooming everyone at the BoB? Why was he able to abandon the NW without another word and abandon his responsibility for petty revenge; something he’s wanted to do since the first season? So much for let the boy die. He is a fool just like his father was and Rhaegar died.

Plus you’re neglecting to mention that much of that support has come from him being a Stark and specifically Ned Starks son. Which he isn’t. The Wildlings are the only group he actually won over on his own merits. The NW actually killed him. Funny, that he’s actually lying to the North this entire time and has no claim over Bran or Sansa.

Dany only got full grown dragons in season 6. She has earned and sacrificed to get where she is. Her title has, actually never been a help to her. Certainly not in Essos and given that Westeros didn’t think twice about Cersei being Queen it’s a total hinderance as it makes her the Mad Kings daughter. If she had simply been The Breaker of Chains from Essos her job would have been a lot easier.

 

 

i am sick of the jon hate and dany love. without her draogns she wouldnt have  gotten has far as she has and she had a lot of people help her along  the way.

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3 hours ago, Sheiraseastar23 said:

You're not being objective here at all, just stating what you would rather see happening. Im not in the Jon or Dany camp, but even a blind person would agree that Jon would be the better king, out of the two. People are following him and rallying around him, and it looks so easy, so natural, even without having dragons, or a fancy family name, even though he is just a bastard. 

jon would be a better king. hes fair, isnt power hungry and didnt kill people if they dont follow them. i think sansa and tyrion would be better then both of them though.

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1 hour ago, LucyMormont said:

I see it differently, you paint Cercei way too good. Cercei's hatred towards Tyrion is rooten firstly in him being a dwarf, a black mark in all that Lannister beauty and perfection. Tyrion is way too used to that, not only from Cercei but from almost everybody else, including Tywin. A girl who tortures a baby, no matter how young and in grief the girl is, doesn't deserve my pity. And while Tyrion deep down might  want to be loved by his sister and having been loved by his father, to have the desire  that things would have been different, he is way too smart and cynical to fool himself. This is the sister who wanted her head and did everything she could to get it, quick in accusing him of murdering Joffrey without a single proof. This is the woman who blew up a sept full of people, including Lannisters, and who didn't show a drop of grief for his last son, even saying "he betrayed me".

And Tyrion knows exactly who she is. 

I fail to remember  when Tyrion trusted Cercei before S 7.

In season 7, he took the risk because somehow he wanted her to agree to a truce, just to be able to get Dany north. And she "failed" to kill him, because Dany, her dragons and her armies were outside, they had come under a white flag to parlay, and killing her Hand would be very stupid when in that moment she had almost no army left. 

Trusting Cercei was only the last of his mistakes. And Dany didn't trust Cercei, she trusted her Hand; and the same can be said from all the others. This was always a Tyrion plan, and they all got along, trusting that he knew his sister. 

His first mistake, and bad advice as her Hand, was to prevent her from going directly to the Red Keep with her dragons and burn it to the ground.  That would have been the quickest way to win the Throne, and would have saved countless lives, including all Lannister soldiers, the Reach soldiers, Yara people, etc, and the smallfolk of the whole 7 Kingdoms.

The Red Keep is not King's Landing, is a very acceptable military target; as it were Stannis ships when Tyrion used all that wildfire in the Battle of Blackwater. And I believe he prevented her to do the most obvious thing, just for personal reasons: Jaime could have been there too. It's completely understandable, he loves his brother, and he owes him too. But, he really did give a shitty advice, because he valued Jaime's life above all Dany's allies lives.

From then on, all the military strategies were Tyrion's: to send Yara to get Dorne and Reach soldiers to put Kings Landing under siege (as if starving the entire population was in some way better than burning some 200 ppl in the Red Keep!), to send the Unsullied to Casterly Rock, etc. The outcome was Dany losing all her allies. And someone has yet to explain me how is that  Cercei's side had way better intel than Dany's side.

Cersei's side had Qyburn take over all the little birds as master of whispers when Vary's had to leave. Varys went from the man who knew everything in Westeros, to hearing nothing at all... thats why Cersei was able to prepare. She would have known exactly who had travelled over to Dragonstone for that strategy meeting... and it'd be hard for that many Unsullied, Ironborn and Dothraki to sail across without being seen.
 
Dany had no intel at all about what was going in Westeros, even not knowing that Casterly Rock/House Lannister were all out of money.
But its easy when you have the benefit of hindsight to call it a mistake... But the info that they needed simply wasn't available to them. Otherwise, the plan to take Casterly Rock did make strategic sense.
More than that, the advice not to go to Kings Landing was also based on sound thinking. They needed far more allies than they had. Cersei was painting Dany as a foreigner, a crazy demon girl who would come to burn them all with her dragons... so flying over to the capital on a torching expedition would only prove Cersei right in the eyes of all the Westerosi.
He also did not want to risk her, or her dragons, getting injured, or killed... and warned her that she needed to stay safe and not to presume that she was invincible... that it was her that Cersei would be gunning for.
This proved correct... Cersei was, at that very time, perfecting some 'dragon-killer' scorpions, so he was absolutely spot on.... and Dany was almost taken down on her dragon by Bronn when she didn't listen to him.
And eventually Tyrions fears were realised north of the wall with Viserion.

Every single military leader on GOT have made moves that have not worked out the way they planned, particularly in battle... Robb Stark, Stannis, the Boltons, Jon, Mance Rayder, Jaime Lannister, Tywin Lannister... Tywin was spoken about on Westeros as the best military strategist ever seen, but he lost repeatedly to Robb... it didn't cause people to call him useless coz he did nothing but make mistakes. Someone has to lose, and someone has to win... doesn't make one side useless, or the other side amazing, its just a case of who gets the upper hand.
So not sure why there's a double standard for Tyrion he's expected to have a flawless victory, without any intel, and actually without any kind of military background? 
 

And I totally disagree that he values Jaime's life over Dany's allies lives... where is the evidence of that? Jaime was almost roasted by a dragon, and Tyrion although visibly upset, did not try to stop it happening.

Edited by Figdoni

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5 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

My takes on the trailer.... 

S8E4 Trailer

  • First Cersei, with Euron behind her, are overlooking the courtyards of the Red Keep, with, I'm assuming The Golden Company? They're not in any kind of formation like actual troops would be, but then they're just sell swords.. or... ? 

... or civilians!!

I reckon she's sorted herself out with a human shield of innocents

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