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Missandei’s comment - Daenerys

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10 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Oh I don't remember all of them, but on top of my head, in addition to Jorah:

- She tells Jon (and Jorah) on several occasions that "she can't have children" and that "the dragons are the only children she will ever have".
- Allegedly she's even told Tyrion this on at least one occasion, because he brought it up last season as well ("you say you can't have children")
- In the Dragonpit last season, Jon basically calls her out on it, asking who had told her that she can't, and she replies "the witch who murdered my husband", which brings us to...
- Miri Maz Duur and her prophecy: "When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the winds like leaves". This initially sounds like MMD is just telling Daenerys "when hell freezes over", but as far as (vague) prophecies go, it can be considered fulfilled in the show by this point:
"Sun rises in the west and setting in the east" = Daenerys journey in Essos comes to an end and her journey in Westeros begins - check.
"When the seas go dry" = The Dothraki Sea (an actual place) went dry after Daenerys brought all the dothraki with her to Westeros - check.
"When mountains blow in the wind like leaves" = The Wall coming crashing down - check.
(In the books this prophecy is longer, but they cut most of it for the show.)

After all of this, cut to Jon and Daenerys having sex, because at this point Jon is no longer afraid of fathering a bastard. After all, Daenerys can't get pregnant...

Last season, the show basically told us over and over how Daenerys can't get pregnant, in the same way that the show in S8E2 over and over told us how the "crypts is the safest place". 

Is it a red herring? Possibly, but I don't think it is. Daenerys getting a real child and abdicating the throne (or refusing it altogether, focusing on her family) would be the perfect ending for her + it would mean that the Targaryen dynasty survives. 

The book makes a bigger point of this than the show has (she show touched it several times in S1 but then stopped in S2), but family is a big issue for Daenerys:
She hates being the last Targaryen.
She hates not getting to know Rhaegar.
She hates not having a (proper) home. 
She hates not being able to have children of her own.
She hates the thought of her house ending with her.

Since she can't have a home and a family - the first thing she prayed for in the show actually, (and again, is a major wish for her in the books), she instead shifted her focus on the Iron Throne. Now imagine her finding out she's pregnant. Suddenly everything that's previously been blocked from her - a home and a family - is possible again.
After all, she considers it her "duty" as the last Targaryen to rule the 7K and take back the Iron Throne, but what was it her great granduncle Aemon once said?

Love, is the death of duty...

 

Yes, the prophecy! I think your interpretation seems very right on - I always wondered about Mirri Maaz Duur’s prophecy. And I agree that family is a huge thing for her - something she hasn’t had, whereas Jon has had his pack, so to speak. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Figdoni said:

Cersei's side had Qyburn take over all the little birds as master of whispers when Vary's had to leave. Varys went from the man who knew everything in Westeros, to hearing nothing at all... thats why Cersei was able to prepare. She would have known exactly who had travelled over to Dragonstone for that strategy meeting... and it'd be hard for that many Unsullied, Ironborn and Dothraki to sail across without being seen.
 
Dany had no intel at all about what was going in Westeros, even not knowing that Casterly Rock/House Lannister were all out of money.
But its easy when you have the benefit of hindsight to call it a mistake... But the info that they needed simply wasn't available to them. Otherwise, the plan to take Casterly Rock did make strategic sense.
More than that, the advice not to go to Kings Landing was also based on sound thinking. They needed far more allies than they had. Cersei was painting Dany as a foreigner, a crazy demon girl who would come to burn them all with her dragons... so flying over to the capital on a torching expedition would only prove Cersei right in the eyes of all the Westerosi.
He also did not want to risk her, or her dragons, getting injured, or killed... and warned her that she needed to stay safe and not to presume that she was invincible... that it was her that Cersei would be gunning for.
This proved correct... Cersei was, at that very time, perfecting some 'dragon-killer' scorpions, so he was absolutely spot on.... and Dany was almost taken down on her dragon by Bronn when she didn't listen to him.
And eventually Tyrions fears were realised north of the wall with Viserion.

Every single military leader on GOT have made moves that have not worked out the way they planned, particularly in battle... Robb Stark, Stannis, the Boltons, Jon, Mance Rayder, Jaime Lannister, Tywin Lannister... Tywin was spoken about on Westeros as the best military strategist ever seen, but he lost repeatedly to Robb... it didn't cause people to call him useless coz he did nothing but make mistakes. Someone has to lose, and someone has to win... doesn't make one side useless, or the other side amazing, its just a case of who gets the upper hand.
So not sure why there's a double standard for Tyrion he's expected to have a flawless victory, without any intel, and actually without any kind of military background? 
 

And I totally disagree that he values Jaime's life over Dany's allies lives... where is the evidence of that? Jaime was almost roasted by a dragon, and Tyrion although visibly upset, did not try to stop it happening.

That's the point, Tyrion planned a military strategy with not intel at all, which is not consistent with his character. He would have sent spies to King's Landing, and to different regions, to sense the mood of the smallfolk and houses and feed him with info about  anything relevant. And Varys could have created another web of informers, even doing it from Essos, prior to sailing to Westeros, with the help of their allies.

All of Qyburn "little birds" wouldn't be of much help in informing of what was happening in Dany's quarters, And even if it'd be hard for that many Unsullied, Ironborn and Dothraki to sail across without being seen, it would have been equally hard for Euron's fleet to get unnoticed. 

And Tyrion not knowing that Casterly Rock was out of gold is not consistent with his character either, 

About Qyburn scorpions, they were not very dangerous for the dragons (I recall Jaime telling Cercei "the scorpions were shooting non stop and we could not stop her dragon... and it was only one, she has THREE!") , although she could have fallen when Drogon got hit. I give you that Tyrion had no means to know that when gave his advice, but what's the point of having dragons if you won't use them? They were the means to make the war as short as possible, and saving as many lives as possible too. 

Cercei saying bad things of Dany is expectable, is just war propaganda, and that is also another thing in which Tyrion failed. That's what he should have made too, sending envoys to different houses, and also placing people in markets, shops, taverns, to speak ill of Cersei. and promote discontent among the population.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Edited by LucyMormont

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

That's the point, Tyrion planned a military strategy with not intel at all, which is not consistent with his character. He would have sent spies to King's Landing, and to different regions, to sense the mood of the smallfolk and houses and feed him with info about  anything relevant. And Varys could have created another web of informers, even doing it from Essos, prior to sailing to Westeros, with the help of their allies.

Spies? What spies did he have at his disposal?
Varys... the master of whispers, was not capable of putting together another web of spies from Essos/Dragonstone... or else he would have.
And this is somehow Tyrions fault?

46 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

All of Qyburn "little birds" wouldn't be of much help in informing of what was happening in Dany's quarters, And even if it'd be hard for that many Unsullied, Ironborn and Dothraki to sail across without being seen, it would have been equally hard for Euron's fleet to get unnoticed. 

The little bird network extended everywhere... Varys used to receive whispers from Essos and Dragonstone, and everywhere.
Would Qyburn have known that people were sailing from Dorne, Iron Islands and Highgarden towards Dragonstone... I'm sure he did. 
Could Cersei have made some educated guesses as to where those armies were likely to attack, based on their sizes, locations etc, and what were the strategic targets they would need to take? Most likely... she'd have presumed that Tyrion would send them to the most effective places in order to win.

There were simply no spies working for Dany that could be out there watching Euron's fleet set sail... they're only visible if you have spies to see them.

46 minutes ago, LucyMormont said:

And Tyrion not knowing that Casterly Rock was out of gold is not consistent with his character either, 

The bit that she knew, which Tyrion did not know, was that she could absolutely afford to lose Casterly Rock. That was her secret weapon. That was what allowed her to take the Lannister army out of Casterly Rock to mess with Tyrions strategy.

He would never have been able to guess that the mines were dry. Very very few people knew as it was very heavily guarded secret by Tywin... A Lannister always pays his debts, but can't if they're broke...
I think the only person Tywin told was Cersei... Cersei was never gonna tell Tyrion. 
So its not 'out of character' for him to not know since he isn't a mind reader.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqIyVtlxbW8

Jaime was not correct to say they could not stop the dragon... they were missing the dragon nonstop... :D Absolutely the scorpions were dangerous... Dany almost died in that moment, trying to take the arrow out. And the NK proved it does only take one well aimed hit to take down a dragon.... so if their aim was a bit better, I'm sure they would have. (And might yet in the battle to come). But Jaime was pretty freaked out by the whole defeat, so I can understand why he felt overawed by the dragons.

And I don't know where they're supposed to conjure up "envoys" that won't get killed the moment they land on Westeros. He doesn't need to have people speak ill of Cersei anyway... the people all hate her. They fear her... but if Dany had gone over there, dragons blazing like Cersei hoped she would, and had told the people that she would, those people would likely end up fearing & hating Dany waaaay more. Tyrion understood that... he's trying to get her to be different from Cersei... better.... like Dany herself says she aspires to be

I think we will have to agree to disagree :)
 

Edited by Figdoni

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9 hours ago, starklover said:

i am sick of the jon hate and dany love. without her draogns she wouldnt have  gotten has far as she has and she had a lot of people help her along  the way.

 

I am not sure what gives you this impression. People hating Jon isn’t a thing. My points are a counter to prevailing view that he is the perfect King and Dany being written out would be an amazing story.

The fans of the books and show have been endlessly pushing this agenda. The amount of theories and fans saying that Dany is either mad, power hungry, should stay in Essos, (whilst simultaneously criticising all of the Essos stuff BTW) and basically all but state that she should be written out of the plot as soon as possible are legion. There are still book fans who earnestly believe that Dany won’t go to Westeros. You do not see this with any other character, even the villains, this wilful desire to write them out of the plot line and for them to amount to nothing.

You simply do not see this with Jon. People believe he is Aragorn and that Dany should step aside for him after the greatest anime reveal of our time.

Frankly, a lot of fans would greatly have preferred if the story had totally been Starks VS Lannister’s and have always believed that Danys arc was unnecessary to that tale. In fact I’ve spoken to quite a few people on this forum who have stated this outright. Having come into the story because of Danys arc I cannot reconcile myself to this popular viewpoint.

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6 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I am not sure what gives you this impression. People hating Jon isn’t a thing. My points are a counter to prevailing view that he is the perfect King and Dany being written out would be an amazing story.

The fans of the books and show have been endlessly pushing this agenda. The amount of theories and fans saying that Dany is either mad, power hungry, should stay in Essos, (whilst simultaneously criticising all of the Essos stuff BTW) and basically all but state that she should be written out of the plot as soon as possible are legion. There are still book fans who earnestly believe that Dany won’t go to Westeros. You do not see this with any other character, even the villains, this wilful desire to write them out of the plot line and for them to amount to nothing.

You simply do not see this with Jon. People believe he is Aragorn and that Dany should step aside for him after the greatest anime reveal of our time.

Frankly, a lot of fans would greatly have preferred if the story had totally been Starks VS Lannister’s and have always believed that Danys arc was unnecessary to that tale. In fact I’ve spoken to quite a few people on this forum who have stated this outright. Having come into the story because of Danys arc I cannot reconcile myself to this popular viewpoint.

Yes, thank you!

”Without her dragons she’d be nothing.” Every hero and warrior has had something that helps them in their arc/quest. It is their choices and the actions they take with those things that help them that MAKE them the hero/warrior they are. A lesser person would not have been able to wake dragons, would not have made the decisions and taken the actions that Daenerys did to help her dragons grow, to free slaves, to win love and loyalty, to create allies and bring her to this point. Without DAENERYS, her dragons and armies would not be where they are, either. Without her, the living would not be living. 

That goes for every single hero in this story, including Jon. 

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I stand by my prediction, which I have kept since the first novel, that Daenerys will eventually realize that her true home is in the east. That is where she has always lived, and that is where the people need her. She will leave the Iron Throne to Jon - it's the perfect solution, as her family DOES get the throne back then, so she has accomplished what she swore to do. But she doesn't have to sit on it and deal with people and lands and Houses she doesn't know.

Not so bad to be in the east, either. She can always fly back to Westeros for a visit now and then.

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