A Rant About Northern Independence

[theladyinspring]

Now that Sansa has put it out there that it's "divided loyalties" to support Daenerys as Queen, I have to say something.

I've never seen anyone anywhere express the opinion I'm about to, and I don't expect the show to agree with me. 

The North has not earned their independence as a kingdom, and Sansa is in the wrong to keep pushing it.

Under a united Westeros, the Crown substantially provides for justice, distribution of resources, economic stability, safety and security, and the proper maintenance of culture and tradition (e.g. allowing for the respect of various gods depending on region without civil wars breaking out). The Crown also of course holds the majority of power in holding the throne. 

When Robb declared as King in The North it was after the Crown had failed in doing its duty in all of these areas. The Crown's power was also perceived as weak, as after all, The North only bowed in the first place because the Targaryens had dragons. The Targaryens proceeded to rule for 300 years and treated The North fairly until they didn't. The Baratheon reign under Robert had also not done a great job of stewardship, thus there was no compelling reason to follow the law and bend the knee to Stannis. 

Anyway, as King in The North, ROBB FAILED IN HIS DUTY. A proper marital alliance is key. This is something Daenerys, for example, has shown a willingness to learn and act accordingly multiple times. Because Robb failed at something no king is allowed to fail at (even Robert at least tried), he died and his kingdom died with him.

The North immediately let the Boltons be installed as Warden, which means they gave up their independence back to the Lannisters. They didn't rally to Stannis to fight, and when Jon and Sansa tried to rally them to fight for themselves, they also did not respond in appropriate numbers. This is why Wildlings and the Vale, not Northerners, were required to take back Winterfell and The North. 

Yes, they then agreed to install Jon as King in The North, but Jon's focus was to unite them in order to fight yet another outside threat. But they needed help. They could not save themselves. They didn't have the numbers and weapons necessary to put up a real fight. So Jon went to someone who could help, Daenerys. Daenerys gave up armies, and weapons (including dragons), and her own war effort, in exchange for The North's allegiance to her as Queen. The North offered no other deal. 

This was completely appropriate. If they didn't need a Queen then they could have handled things themselves. They could not, as proven repeatedly. If Daenerys does not require their allegiance in return for the massive resources she gave up then she would be in the wrong. Why should the Dothraki and Unsullied die for a people who have not done what they have done and sworn to the same Queen? It was bad enough watching them die protecting the Westerosi, imagine if they did that for people who promised NOTHING IN RETURN. Winterfell would certainly be gone and much more of The North decimated before hopefully they figured out they needed to hire an assassin to take out the Night King.

Now Sansa continues to claim that The North has some significant claim to independence and they really need it. So much so she calls it "divided loyalties" to support Daenerys as Queen. Why should anyone support "The North" or Sansa in particular as an independent kingdom? Why should the smallfolk of The North think they'd be better off? Sansa and the Northern lords didn't save them, it was the Vale, and the Wildlings, and Daenerys' armies and dragons, all of these saved them from their various trials. 

Jon gave up his claim as King in The North and bet on Daenerys as Queen taking care of The North as she would the other kingdoms. She has shown her readiness and willingness to do this. Right now, much of The North will need rebuilding and resources. They have yet to show they can do anything on their own. The Starks were fine for centuries as Wardens and did not let pride get in the way. The North bowed to the dragons before and I don't see why they oughtn't bow to them again.
 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

The North survived thousands of years as an independent kingdom until dragons came 300 years previous and forced them into a union they didn't want to be in. Over the last 3 generations the Iron Throne has seen to the deaths of Rickard, Brandon, Ned, Robb and Cat. Arguably Lyanna too. There is substantial motivation to be away from the whole thing.

As for Robb reneging on a marriage alliance. It was not a murderable offence. Prince Duncan did it, apparently Olenna did it too. Joffrey did it with Sansa much to her relief. Lyanna did it, its how Jon exists. 

You say the North immediately let the Boltons be wardens, this is not shown to be true. The Mormonts didn't want it. All the houses that allied with the Starks in the BOTB didn't want it. They didn't have a figurehead to rally around until Jon and Sansa showed up. The North was also reeling from the aftermath of the red wedding where all the Northern forces were massacred.

You say that Daenerys offered to help in exchange for bending the knee. This is not true. When Viserion died she says she will help and Jon bent the knee anyway. The North gave Jon a crown and he threw it away. Its a display of contempt for the judgement and wishes of his people. Missandei says that the slaves chose Daenerys. The North chose Jon. He didn't care.

What Daenerys got in return was a chance to take on Cersei without the threat of the extinction of humanity. Had she not fought the North would have been overrun, the Night King would be unstoppable. Westeros would have been doomed. But sure, she got nothing in return.

You say that Sansa didn't save the North, the Vale did. The Vale is only there for Sansa. The Wildings aren't even part of the 7 kingdoms. Daenerys most definitely did not save the North. Sansa's sister saved them all, the Princess that was Promised apparently. How can she be a Princess if the North is not its own Kingdom?