Why do some people have a problem with Sansa?

[EmmaS]

Alright first of all, I'm very happy and pleased that the character of Sansa has been getting more popular and has become a fan favorite over the seasons as she should. And I'm happy that Sophie Turner has been getting more love and support (since she's a very cool person in real life); however some of the treatment towards Sansa continues to be just absolutely despicable and most of it is for really ridiculous reasons.

So I see that she got most of the hate back in season one, however what most have failed to remember is that she was only a child and was being manipulated by Cersei. THAT should have been very obvious. And then she had to go through years of torture, humiliation, rape and other horrible kinds of abuse that one would think would garner actual sympathy for her, and yet some people still continued to be awful and make fun of her character. And some of you people had lame excuses for hating her in season 6. Most reasons including that she compared Jon to Ramsay or that she never told him about the Knights of the Vale. Well first of all, she never compared him to Ramsay, all she said was that even though Jon is a bastard, he's STILL a Stark and he's still Ned's son, just as ANY bastard child would be. It was damn obvious that that is what she meant. And it's also pretty damn obvious why she didn't tell him about the Vale Knights; even though she loves and cares about Jon, she didn't know who she could trust at the time. So many people who claimed to be her ally throughout the years have betrayed her in some way, so can you really blame her for keeping that to herself? And second, she didn't tell him because she probably didn't even know if the Knights were going to come. What if Littlefinger just said he'd bring them and ended up betraying her again, she couldn't just go on his word. They might not have showed up!

And don't bring in the lame excuse that if she told him the battle wouldn't have started out bad. But that is just silly. The battle would have started out bad NO MATTER WHAT. Ramsay STILL would have played his "little game" with Rickon and he STILL would have had him run out into the field chasing him with arrows, and Jon, like an idiot, STILL would have run out there to try to save him even though he was suppose to stick to the battle plan and leave him. As harsh as it may have sounded Sansa was right, there was no point in trying to rescue Rickon since he was basically a goner as soon as he was captured by the Boltons. They should have stuck with the plan or at least waited to get more men, just as she said. Some people also seem to overlook the fact that throughout season 6 Sansa was constantly saying to Jon that no matter what, he was still her family and she that she loved him very much. When he said he wasn't a Stark she said "you are to me". Or how when he wanted to give up and travel south she told him that the North is their home and they need to fight for it back. Which is pretty admirable right there. 

Then on to season 7, Arya was acting like a sociopathic brat who wouldn't listen to anything Sansa said, and wouldn't even here her defend herself. Luckily we all know how that turned out and how they had all been playing Littlefinger the whole time. But at the beginning of the season Sansa was again right. Jon should have consulted with her about how things would be done since she's more versed in politics than he is. She was never belittling him or talking down in him at all. She was just understandably frustrated that he would forgive people so easily rather than have people see the consequences of their horrible actions. She NEVER compared him to Joffrey as some complain, she was clearly just saying that as a ruler he needs to be more careful with his decisions and not do shit that other monarchs had done before. And hey she did tell him that he was a good ruler and that she liked him as King. And she also had every right to be upset with him for leaving for Dragonstone. The Targaryen's had brutally murdered their grandfather and uncle, so any relations with Targaryen's would have been bad. Can you really blame her for being mistrustful and upset with him for going? All she knows is that Daenerys is the Mad King's daughter, so what is stopping her from being just like him? Madness runs in their family after all, and everyone knows that.

Now on to season 8 and once again treatment against her is appalling. Maybe even more so. However if you all remember in season 7, Jon was originally ONLY suppose to go to Dragonstone for dragonglass weapons and that was it. And in quite a few scenes we can see Sansa doing inspections and inventory on what needs to be done to prepare their people for winter including gathering enough food for everyone. But, their resources are quite limited thanks to the Ironborn and then the Boltons. So they could only gather so much. And then in season 8 here comes the Dragon Queen and her "world's largest army" and two full grown dragons. Sansa was obviously NOT expecting them at all. And on top of that she has most likely heard about Daenerys' habits on burning people alive who don't bow down to her and how everyone must "bend the knee" to her. So it is entirely reasonable and understandable why Sansa would be cold towards her. They don't have enough food for everyone and Dany comes in acting like she owns the place and on top of that, she burned all the food in the Reach during that battle in the "Spoils of War" episode when they could have used those supplies. Sansa had every reason to ask her what the hell dragons are suppose to eat and how the hell she's suppose to feed her armies. Sansa has worked her ass off trying to ensure the North is safe for winter, and this Dragon woman comes in and disrupts their lives. And how does Dany respond? She looked quite pleased and smug when her dragons scared those poor smallfolk when she first arrived, she ends up threatening Sansa twice and don't forget how should previously didn't even want to help Jon unless he bent the knee. Even in episode two what did she call it? Oh that's right, "Jon's war", not the people's war, not OUR war against the dead, but simply Jon's War. She doesn't care, she only came North because of Jon, not for the good of the realm or the people. She only cares about ONE war and that's to get her precious throne. Sansa saw right through her in that episode as well. Sansa only played nice with her because she understood what Jon had been doing the entire time (playing Dany like a fiddle) and Sansa "apologizing" to her was more like "thank you for finally showing me your true colors". Sansa and the North have fought for their freedom and independence for years, they understandably never want to bow down to another corrupt southern ruler ever again. After everything she had been through herself in King's Landing, the feeling is even stronger with her and who could blame her for that! So she had every right to ask Dany "what about the north?" Dany removing her hand from Sansa gave her all the answers she needed. As long as the Dragon Queen is here, she will makes us her prisoners.

And finally in the recent episode three some are calling her a coward? Seriously! Did you all miss the beginning where she said that she didn't want to leave because she didn't want to abandon their people? But Arya very sternly told her to go anyway (because you know, Arya obviously loves and cares about her sister's safety) and she gave Sansa her dagger. Sansa who has NEVER been a physical fighter or warrior in her life would obviously not know how to use it. She has never had to carry a weapon before. So she goes down into the crypts and has that conversation with Tyrion, and it makes me laugh that people said she was being mean to Daenerys. HOW?! Literally the ONLY thing she said to him was that their relationship would never work because they have different loyalties. That was all she said! And guess what, again she's right! Sansa is loyal to the North, her family and her people; while Tyrion serves a foreign invader. Missandei had no right to talk to Sansa that way since she has no idea what she's been through. Especially since their conversation was a PRIVATE one. She or anyone else have no right to just butt in. Of course Sansa wouldn't respond to her because what is there to say? She doesn't even know Missandei, and Missandei doesn't know her. Sansa knew that all she could do is just rightfully ignore her and keep about their own business. And then when the White Walkers break into the crypts, what the hell was she suppose to do? Again, she's not a fighter, she's never physically fought against an enemy before. Especially one that is a walking dead zombie monster. She knew she couldn't just battle against them even if she does have a dagger. She can't defeat them when there are tons of them coming into the crypts and there is only one of her! All she or anyone else could do was just run and hide. There is literally nothing they could do. And Sansa actually DOES take out the dagger while she and Tyrion are hiding. It's the implication that she is preparing herself to possibly fight against them and try to protect others while she's at it. She and Tyrion were hiding because they were preparing themselves mentally and physically to fight and protect their people. Again she has NEVER in her life been in a situation like that before. There is only so much she can do and prepare herself for. The Battle of the Blackwater doesn't count since the castle was never actually broken into and none of the castle inhabitants had to fight against the enemy soldiers. Oh and fun fact, Sophie did a behind the scenes and it turns out that Sansa and Tyrion actually DID get to stab some White Walkers. Unfortunately they cut the scene out for some reason, but there you go!

Yes Dany may have helped in the fight but she had no other choice and had no where else to go yet. Otherwise she still didn't care about the war. Now she's going to be on a rampage fighting her "real" war for the throne.

Overall, Sansa has proven time and time and time again to be a loyal, compassionate, kind-hearted, very intelligent, and badass leader and ruler. She is someone who actually cares about people, she has worked her ass off to make sure that the North gets through winter and will no doubt be doing more great things in the future. She will play a VERY important role in the last three episodes as the politics of Westeros come to a head. There is a reason Arya said that "she's the smartest person I've ever met", because she is 100% correct. If it wasn't for Sansa, the Stark's never would have reunited and the North would still be under corrupt Bolton rule. Jon didn't even want to go back home, in season 6 he wanted to go somewhere south, but Sansa said no, they need to stay and fight for their home, their family and their people. The only reason why they are where they are now is because of Sansa. They have food because of Sansa, shelter because of Sansa, loyalty from the people because of Sansa. She never wanted a crown, or be "queen". That was only a young girl fantasy she had. Now she just wants to be home with her family, and to keep them safe and keep their independence. She is as they say "the key to the North". And if some people don't see that and continue to hate her for some reason, then there is something very wrong in their heads. And they are clearly watching some other random show. The hatred that she gets has NEVER made sense. It's like no matter what she does, even if she blinks in the wrong direction, some people will hate her for that. It makes no sense and it needs to stop.

[Angel Eyes]

Season 7: she’s supposed to be an up-and-coming player in the Game, yet she and Arya were played by Littlefinger until Sansa realized that they had an omniscient tree god on their side: Bran. And I would have liked Sansa executing Littlefinger personally, would have added a nice touch and would have been more meaningful that she used her own hands instead of relying on an executioner like Joffrey did. The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.

Season 8: her antagonism with Daenerys and the Northern Lords’ obsession with independence. What should it matter that the North is independent if the Army of the Dead overruns them? As Missandei says: “Without the Dragon Queen, there'd be no problem at all. We'd all be dead already." And she didn’t get any training to fight, which Jon ordered back in Season 7; when you’re in a war zone like Winterfell was in Episode 3 and don’t have some ability to fight, you’re a liability. They should have left that scene where she and Tyrion kill wights in.

And this is coming from someone who likes Sansa as a character, I criticize the way the showrunners have handled her, particularly in Season 5 when she was sent to the Boltons and used as a plot device for Theon’s redemption, meaning that all the political skill she’d picked up in King’s Landing and the Vale went completely to waste. 

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Season 7: she’s supposed to be an up-and-coming player in the Game, yet she and Arya were played by Littlefinger until Sansa realized that they had an omniscient tree god on their side: Bran.

Just one correction:  It wasn't Bran.  When Sansa spoke to Littlefinger and they played the little game, Littlefinger tried to convince her that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, and Sansa who knew that Arya didn't want to be a lady, realized that Littlefinger was trying to play her.

But what I find very interesting is that while, it is true that that entire rivalry between Arya and Sansa was pointless, everyone attacks Sansa, but no one blames Arya, who actually started the whole thing by falsely accusing Sansa.  Those double standards are what is most problematic with the Sansa-haters.

[Angel Eyes]

4 hours ago, bloodsteel bitterraven said:

Just one correction:  It wasn't Bran.  When Sansa spoke to Littlefinger and they played the little game, Littlefinger tried to convince her that Arya wanted to be Lady of Winterfell, and Sansa who knew that Arya didn't want to be a lady, realized that Littlefinger was trying to play her.

But what I find very interesting is that while, it is true that that entire rivalry between Arya and Sansa was pointless, everyone attacks Sansa, but no one blames Arya, who actually started the whole thing by falsely accusing Sansa.  Those double standards are what is most problematic with the Sansa-haters.

Is that what it was? I thought it was the deleted scene where Sansa meets with Bran and tells that she needs his help. But still, I criticize the writing of the show that it takes her that long to figure out that Littlefinger is playing her, even though Sansa, out of everyone still alive, knows how sneaky and manipulative he is.

Arya is her own can of worms, I'll tell you that, such as the fact that she blames Sansa for not trying to save their father even though Arya saw her screaming for their father's life up to the point that he got decapitated. Plus the line about dying before she would serve the Lannisters when she was cup-bearer to Tywin for half of Season 2. I guess they're overcompensating this season for Arya. And I'll say it again, I think somebody should have taught Sansa how to defend herself.

[Vaith]

13 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Season 8: her antagonism with Daenerys and the Northern Lords’ obsession with independence. What should it matter that the North is independent if the Army of the Dead overruns them? As Missandei says: “Without the Dragon Queen, there'd be no problem at all. We'd all be dead already." And she didn’t get any training to fight, which Jon ordered back in Season 7; when you’re in a war zone like Winterfell was in Episode 3 and don’t have some ability to fight, you’re a liability. They should have left that scene where she and Tyrion kill wights in.

And this is coming from someone who likes Sansa as a character, I criticize the way the showrunners have handled her, particularly in Season 5 when she was sent to the Boltons and used as a plot device for Theon’s redemption, meaning that all the political skill she’d picked up in King’s Landing and the Vale went completely to waste. 

Does Missandei's line really work if the only reason the Night King burned down the wall was because Dany brought Viserion north?

Furthermore, there are skills beyond fighting that could be important. She's shown that she's a pretty good administrator and steward in managing the provisions etc. I, for one, wish they showed off more of that through her comforting the people of Winterfell in the crypts. 

[Angel Eyes]

56 minutes ago, Vaith said:

Does Missandei's line really work if the only reason the Night King burned down the wall was because Dany brought Viserion north?

Furthermore, there are skills beyond fighting that could be important. She's shown that she's a pretty good administrator and steward in managing the provisions etc. I, for one, wish they showed off more of that through her comforting the people of Winterfell in the crypts. 

I thought the Night King's original plan was to freeze the sea at Eastwatch and go around the Wall; they'd be coming regardless.

[Vaith]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought the Night King's original plan was to freeze the sea at Eastwatch and go around the Wall; they'd be coming regardless.

An intact Wall is still a far more defensive position, and the Night King doesn't have the tactical advantage of having a blue fire-breathing dragon. It all seems a bit moot since someone really just needed to stab him in the chest with Valyrian steel in the end and all his minions shattered.

[Aurane]

I don't dislike Sansa, but I feel like her character has a lot of wasted potential.

The season 7 arc was supposed to be about Sansa coming into her own and defeating. I felt that it was a rather clunky and disjointed plot arc that didn't feel very satisfying. This is mainly because of her siblings abilities largely overshadowing her own. I also find it to be rather unfortunate that we don't get to see much of her manipulation in action, instead seeing her be a pragmatic foil to Jon and Danerys. Obviously how one is perceived has a lot to do with leadership, but we don't really get to see big maneuvers from her. These skills that she's been practicing seem to either be underutilized or used off-screen. I think that a lot of this is due to the Winterfell detour that she took in season 5. I hope that before this season is over, we at least get to see her make some alliance appeals to Sweetrobin or something.

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And it's also pretty damn obvious why she didn't tell him about the Vale Knights; even though she loves and cares about Jon, she didn't know who she could trust at the time.

I'm confused here. How would the possibility of the Vale reinforcements allow for Jon to backstab Sansa more than he already could? The Vale supporting her and Jon in the north would dissuade Jon from killing her and becoming rightful lord of Winterfell. I don't know what advantage Jon could have otherwise. Besides, the beginning of a battle is usually the most important part, strategy wise. Jon holding back for like an hour and planning out a strategy involving the Vale troops would likely turn the tide of battle much quicker, with fewer casualties on their side.

[lakin1013]

Having been fairly indifferent to Sansa most of the time, it took this final season to show me who she was.  She was a Lady who refused to comfort her people when it was war outside.  She refused to sit with them, visit and talk, or move around the crypts, to comfort the children.  Sansa was far more concerned with speaking to the other highborns.  She was far more concerned about her own safety and we know this because she hid behind headstones.  While she apparently was quite good about ordering food for the castle (and that is no small thing), she spent zero time learning how to defend herself with a sword.  She simply hid.  She does not like Dany and I totally believe spoilers about her plotting with Tyrion or Varys in order to get rid of Dany.

Finally, she gives us the classic line about men being easy to manipulate.  When I think about this line, I wonder how would she know?  Joffrey was insane and she could not manipulate him, she could only avoid him as much as possible.  Ramsay was also insane and she was his toy.  Littlefinger used her over and over again.  She probably offers the most cynical line, yet it has no context.  Sansa has had a terrible time with men, and a terrible life, but she has not earned the right to claim men can be manipulated, until she manipulates one.  According to some of the spoilers, that may be on the way.

[Damon_Tor]

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I thought the Night King's original plan was to freeze the sea at Eastwatch and go around the Wall; they'd be coming regardless.

They've been stuck behind the wall for 8000 years. If freezing the sea was an option, they would have done it already.

[WeCameFromNorth]

I never liked Sansa; she’s the kind of girl that makes me die of boredom or do exactly what Arya did – throw cake in their face. I’ve read on this forum pages and pages of justifications regarding Sansa’s choice between her father and Joffrey friggin’ Prince the Handsome, and I wasn’t convinced. She was just a girl, yes, but Arya was too. Book Margery was, too. They looked and they saw. But Sansa didn’t, because she wanted to marry The Prince.

But I actually came to respect her compassion and politeness, and i liked her "Politeness is lady’s shield" credo and behaviour.

In the show after she was saved from Ramsay, she’s just rude, insensitive, bratty, snarky, and not feminine at all. As it was also being pointed again and again on this forum, we shouldn’t be forced to stop be feminine and become killers or emotionless brutes to prove we are strong. Feminine strenght is something that Cat Stark had, that Margery had, and Sansa in her best compassionate moments had. Now, that black letter domina dress suits her just right.

[Mordant Jester]

I like the character in the books for the most part, because IMO she is a good character who rounds the story.

 

IMO, in the show, she seems to have moved from the "I like songs" to being a stone cold ruler rather conveniently and efficiently.  I get that she had been through a lot, but I don't think she has done anything to be worthy of being "the smartest person" Arya ever met.  She is a bit insipid throughout the story.  Even her big 'moment of glory' when the Vale showed up at the Battle of the Bastards wasnt a 'smart' move.  She should have told Jon, who would have told her to send for them yesterday.... and would have built a battle plan around that knowledge, perhaps saving thousands of lives?

[GOTFanatic]

Useless character, does nearly nothing the entirety of the show. At least Tyrion was useful before becoming useless, she's been that way since season 1. Her only accomplishment was getting the Vale to help Jon in the "Battle of Bastards", but she doesn't even do that right. stupidly not telling him about the pact, nearly getting Jon and his whole army killed. 

She role was that of a hostage or escapee for most of the show, no shes just a harsh bitch who doesn't like Dany. 

[azor_ahaiii]

Cuz shes a traitorous asshole

[Angel Eyes]

On 5/4/2019 at 9:58 PM, Aurane said:

I don't dislike Sansa, but I feel like her character has a lot of wasted potential.

The season 7 arc was supposed to be about Sansa coming into her own and defeating. I felt that it was a rather clunky and disjointed plot arc that didn't feel very satisfying. This is mainly because of her siblings abilities largely overshadowing her own. I also find it to be rather unfortunate that we don't get to see much of her manipulation in action, instead seeing her be a pragmatic foil to Jon and Danerys. Obviously how one is perceived has a lot to do with leadership, but we don't really get to see big maneuvers from her. These skills that she's been practicing seem to either be underutilized or used off-screen. I think that a lot of this is due to the Winterfell detour that she took in season 5. I hope that before this season is over, we at least get to see her make some alliance appeals to Sweetrobin or something.

They've (D&D) pretty much wasted her potential when they sent her to Ramsay, who is someone who can't be manipulated. If she's interested in the North's people, why not have a scene with her interacting with the Northerners and show how much they like her or not? 

I honestly would've liked to see Sansa pick up some combat kills, like archery or using a knife, since she, Tyrion, Varys, Missandei, Gilly, and Little Sam became as useful as a screen door on a battleship  when the wights started attacking the civilians in the crypts.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

Can Dany stans stop with this idiotic Sansa hate?  Sansa hasn't interacted with your favorite character at all in 7 seasons, and because Dumb and Dumber decided to make her your favorite character's antagonist for some reason, now you are all hating her.

Sansa has had one of the best character developments throughout the story, and what D&D are doing to her is really unfair to her as a character.

 

[Targaryen Peas]

she a snitch

[Rubicante]

On 5/7/2019 at 2:56 PM, azor_ahaiii said:

Cuz shes a traitorous asshole

Lol. Well said!

Jon now has two reasons to execute her.

1. For withholding information about the Vale army.

2. For immediately breaking her oath regarding who Jon actually is.

[Nowy Tends]

7 hours ago, Rubicante said:

Jon now has two reasons to execute her.

1. For withholding information about the Vale army.

2. For immediately breaking her oath regarding who Jon actually is.

That's nonsense. By virtue of what title? In what capacity? Sansa has a higher position than Jon (I think he's not "officially" Warden of the North).

Besides if he does anything against his cousin who saved his ass from a disaster he caused by not following any battle plan, he will pass for a dangerous wacko.

[azor_ahaiii]

On 5/10/2019 at 9:30 AM, Nowy Tends said:

That's nonsense. By virtue of what title? In what capacity? Sansa has a higher position than Jon (I think he's not "officially" Warden of the North).

Besides if he does anything against his cousin who saved his ass from a disaster he caused by not following any battle plan, he will pass for a dangerous wacko.

Well of course Jon will never actually execute Sansa but she in no way has a higher position than him. He IS the WotN as long as they swear loyalty to Dany, and he fought for Winterfell twice, and won. If his parentage ever goes public hes still the son of Lyanna and half a Stark like before.