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Is GRRM As Complex As You Believe He Is?

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First of all I love this forum and do not meant to insult or piss anyone off. This forum was the source that made me take the books more seriously than the show (how I was introduced to the story) and sent me down a spiraling rabbit hole. I have been extremely impressed with the creativity and critical thinking users on this site have exercised on ASolaF. I preface my question because again, my aim is not to insult or belittle anyone, it is sincerely from a point of admiration of your knowledge for the story.

My question is how much faith, or how much evidence, do you have that GRRM is writing a story as complex as this site gives it credit for? I for one do not believe he is participating in the same excruciatingly complex story that this forum gives him credit for. Taking nothing away from GRRM, I still love the characters, the world-building, and most of all realism he inserted into the fantasy genre, but my fear is that he never expected to explain the story and characters to the level that this forum expects.

The best example I can use is the introduction of Jaqen. I have read numerous theories on this site about the true explanation of his origin, being locked up in the cells of king's landing. The theories are amazing and tie in a complex web or foresight and planning by the author. There are a number of these theories on characters and their motivations, and my question is simply how confident are you that GRMM has planned out his story to explain this level of detail? 

Unfortunately, I am of the opinion that GRRM simply placed Jaqen in the cells as a means to bridge Arya to the faceless men. I don't believe he had an elaborate scheme why he was there (which a discerning reader would ask, if probing into the story far enough - how is a faceless man caught up in the King's Landing justice system), yet, I've rarely come across a serious book reader who did not have a position on what the backstory and motivation is.

I'm also of the opinion that GRRM is aware of this complex explanation for his story and that is what has stymied him over the past years. I believe his eagerness and ability to write "backwards" is an attempt to plant the evidence for what he is trying to accomplish, that being a story with a volume of webs that many readers are expecting to tie-in together and make sense.

Any ways, I hope I am wrong but it just doesn't seem possible for him to tie everything together in 2 books and I, not as intelligent a reader as most on this site, haven't been able to identify the evidence that GRRM not only planted the seeds, but has the ability to grow the garden as beautiful as this site has anticipated.

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i believe in him.

it has been said that he has cast many pages of this marvelous tale aside, complex chapter pieces and other paragraphs undoubtedly full of backstory we will never know.

i say you are wrong.  he's probably got three books, maybe four up his sleeve for us.

 

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Not saying this should be a sticky topic, but it'd be good to print out a copy and keep it in our underwear drawers.  Then, when Dream of Spring is published 14 years hence, this reminder to not expect the moon could save lots of readers from suffering whiplash as we discover the future of Westeros and throw our heads back to shout at the skies, "WHAT!?!?"   

We're going to feel the conclusion like a bucket of cold water that dashes lots of readers' hopes for a more complex flowering of all the potential we see now.  Not all potential is going to blossom.  That's been the way of it.  There's not enough pages.  Oddly.     The last couple books slowed down the loom of fate and killed less characters, providing the illusion that those who are left have weathered the storm and will now find their best outcomes. So we can dust off our hearts and start to hope again....   Errrr, that's probably still not wise.  The last two volumes were the calm before the whopper.  I engage in the kind of wishful thinking you're talking about all the time, trying to max out each character's arc, but that's because I sense the coldness of what's coming and busy myself with suggesting warmer possibilities to the universe... hopefully influencing things in that direction....like a prayer.  Also, just enjoying the characters while we still can.  Some characters will be straight up HBO'd, i fears.    

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I do have faith in him to write a good book, but I can understand where you are coming from. 

On one hand, the fact that it has almost been 8 years since the last book makes me think that the next book will be full of complex twists and turns. On the other hand, the fact that it has been almost 8 years means that people have been theorizing every single little possibility that could happen over those 8 years. So there are definitely doing to be people who are disappointed that it isn't complex enough. 

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Complexity does not equal greatness.  Simplicity does not equal greatness.  Great writing makes greatness.  The thing that brings the complexity is the predicament of the main characters.  The battle between what ought to be done in conflict with what the person wants to do. 

Think of George R. R Martin and his generation.  I'm not a fan of the American teacher Tim Leary but many think people over thirty years in age have already fixed the lens through which they see life.  Life looks pink if the lens is pink.  GRRM fixed his lens in the 1950s to the 1970s period of time.  We should take note of the happenings in between.

Political corruption.  Persecution of artists in Hollywood.  Vietnam War.  Families digging bomb shelters in the basement.  These are there in the pages of the story.  The Cold War turned GRRM against useless warfare. 

George followed the rules and entered military service when some young men escaped the draft.  He shouldn't like Mance Rayder.  Movies like Planet of the Apes were popular.  Forbidden Planet is a warning to people flirting with nuclear energy. 

GRRM grew up poor and only got to travel when his career became successful.  His heroes are people who grew up hungry and worked their way up.  Duncan the Tall, Daenerys Targaryen, and Aegon.  His family lost their wealth because of corrupt politician.  The Targaryens lost their kingdom because of plotting by Rickard and the Baratheons. 

His lens may not agree with his younger readers.  There is a generational gap between author and some of his readers.  Their views may differ because of different life experiences.

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I think he is, I think people exaggerate too much on how he will end the book or the killing of his characters.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, bazookahead said:

First of all I love this forum and do not meant to insult or piss anyone off. This forum was the source that made me take the books more seriously than the show (how I was introduced to the story) and sent me down a spiraling rabbit hole. I have been extremely impressed with the creativity and critical thinking users on this site have exercised on ASolaF. I preface my question because again, my aim is not to insult or belittle anyone, it is sincerely from a point of admiration of your knowledge for the story.

Cool beans. In answer to your thread title --- Is GRRM As Complex As You Believe He Is?

Complex is not a word I would use. Ambiguous,  unclear --- as in using multiple words to describe the same thing (White Walkers, Others) and intentionally frekking with readers by using multiple nicknames for Umber.  Plus,  Skahaz mo Kandaq, the Shavepate, and the Jhaqo & Jhogo thawg.

4 hours ago, bazookahead said:

My question is how much faith, or how much evidence, do you have that GRRM is writing a story as complex as this site gives it credit for? I for one do not believe he is participating in the same excruciatingly complex story that this forum gives him credit for.

None.  I gotta agree.

Edit:  While I enjoyed book one, two and three, I did not appreciate Feast for Crows --- Meanwhile back on the Wall--- nor did a appreciate Dance with Dragons cavil.

He lost focus, expanded the story.  He hopes to end the story in two more approximately 1000 page books.

Spoiler

Piss poor as it is with the mixing and mingling of characters the you know what gonna supply an ending.

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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If things were as complex and hidden as some people would have you believe then if anything he'd be a bad writer anyway. What's the point in leaving breadcrumbs that the average reader will never even come close to piecing together. The books do have a lot of complex foreshadowing and connections but it's basically a meme at this point. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Complexity does not equal greatness.  Simplicity does not equal greatness.  Great writing makes greatness.  The thing that brings the complexity is the predicament of the main characters.  The battle between what ought to be done in conflict with what the person wants to do. 

Think of George R. R Martin and his generation.  I'm not a fan of the American teacher Tim Leary but many think people over thirty years in age have already fixed the lens through which they see life.  Life looks pink if the lens is pink.  GRRM fixed his lens in the 1950s to the 1970s period of time.  We should take note of the happenings in between.

Political corruption.  Persecution of artists in Hollywood.  Vietnam War.  Families digging bomb shelters in the basement.  These are there in the pages of the story.  The Cold War turned GRRM against useless warfare. 

George followed the rules and entered military service when some young men escaped the draft.  He shouldn't like Mance Rayder.  Movies like Planet of the Apes were popular.  Forbidden Planet is a warning to people flirting with nuclear energy. 

GRRM grew up poor and only got to travel when his career became successful.  His heroes are people who grew up hungry and worked their way up.  Duncan the Tall, Daenerys Targaryen, and Aegon.  His family lost their wealth because of corrupt politician.  The Targaryens lost their kingdom because of plotting by Rickard and the Baratheons. 

His lens may not agree with his younger readers.  There is a generational gap between author and some of his readers.  Their views may differ because of different life experiences.

There is thing called empathy ability to look things from someone else perspective, he writes many diverse characters and if he "shouldn't like some of them" it really doesn't show much, I believe  he attempts to give every one of them fair representation.

I have no knowledge about his family's history just some basic things that he was a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War, though he had stated that he isn't against War he would consider just or defensive like fighting against Nazi Germany in WW2.

Though some of your claims about story are utterly ridiculous , Targaryen lost their throne deservedly by their own sheer idiocy and madness, they were close to destruction many times in their history mostly caused by family infighting, don't throw blame on people who had reason to demand justice or defend their lives against their tyranny.

Edited by Eltharion21

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As a person...he's, like, a regular person. 

His writing, however, has very complex themes and backstories, but is generally straightforward. Complex isn't always good. 

His stories are straightforward and emotionally-charged, which is why they resonate so much with people. 

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He is very good at not leaving plot holes. As far as every single thread being developed to its fullest and all connecting thematic, I seriously doubt it. But what he does do really well is having a "tight" plot that's difficult to poke holes through. 

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GRRM couldn't write a story of this scale without a good deal of planning and bookkeeping. As far as Jaqen H'gar is concerned, we don't know his story yet. I think it's safe to assume that he wasn't in King's Landing on vacation. His presence in the dungeon could have been accidental, but being the highly trained assassin he is it is a bit odd that he was lumped in there with ordinary street criminals. He definitely has an agenda or he wouldn't be posing as Pate in the Citadel. What that agenda is remains to be seen but we'll hear from him again.

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He can't resolve everything. And some things will be just down to magic. Fan speculation is just a lot of fun. We'll probably be talking about all of this long after the series finishes. 

It'd be great to at least get.
Why or how is BR the 3EC?
Why did Ned and the KG have to fight?
Lyanna's story. The exact promise.
The details of the tragedy at Summerhall.
What was the exact details of the 'pact' the First Men made with the cotf?
LF's ENDGAME, (if he has one).


We'll almost definitely get closure on the IT and the fates of major houses. We'll know whether or not humanity manages to repel the Others even at all. And we should learn what the others want from the south. The above are things I think George may leave ambiguous, even by stories end. The only people who can give us a good info dump will be Bran with his magic. Sam with his books or an unfortunate soul in a prologue. So that being the case I expect there to be a lot of ambiguity. 

 

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I think that GRRM's writing is so complex, that majority of readers don't get even half of what is actually going on. Though, when he will give more information in next books, they will be able to go back, and with addition of that new information, will understand more.

 

17 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Why or how is BR the 3EC?

Shiera Seastar is the 3EC. And GRRM will reveal why and how thru Bran's and Dany's chapters (because Shiera is also Quaithe, and eventually she will show her face to Dany, and will explain to her all whats and whys, though in typical for her roundabout manner).

21 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Why did Ned and the KG have to fight?

Because Ned had to be brought to a weak and fevered condition, to have that dream about Lyanna. And because he had to be dying from that infected leg wound, for readers not to complain, that someone somehow didn't tried to save Ned from execution. The point is, is that he was going to die either way, from beheading or from sepsis. And his death was not only unavoidable, it was necessary. And to agree to Varys' conditions, Ned was supposed to be out of his mind. So that's why GRRM made Ned fight against KG and Jaime - to bring him into a needed state (weakened, fevered, dying).

24 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Lyanna's story. The exact promise.

We will get the full story either from Howland, or from his wife Jyanna, who could be Ashara Dayne, so both of them were near Lyanna, when she was dying, thus they know what exactly was promised.

25 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

The details of the tragedy at Summerhall.

Shiera, most likely, was there. She knew, what didn't worked last time, so this time she instructed Dany, what should be done, to hatch dragon eggs (she was smiling and whispering stars, great wings, ghosts in faded raiment of kings in AGOT, Dany IX. She saved Rhaego, and told Dany, what needs to be done, to hatch dragon eggs). She will eventully reveal to Dany, who she is, and how did she became Quaithe, what happened at Summerhall, etc.

29 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

What was the exact details of the 'pact' the First Men made with the cotf?

The Children will tell it to Bran, after he will wake up next time, only to realise, that the weirwood seedpaste has grown out from his stomach thru his muscles and bones, and the tree is binding him to that cave, same as was done to Bloodraven. Maybe, that's when GRRM will share with readers, that it was Shiera who binded Bloodraven to the Weirwood. They are GRRM's parallels to wizard Merlin and water fairy Nimue.

32 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

LF's ENDGAME, (if he has one).

He is GRRM's parallel to The Beast out of the earth, from the Book of Revelation. His endgame is to serve as fAegon's false prophet (with those Targaryen banners, that he was secretly gathering. Image of the Beast - "A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd." - ACOK, Dany IV).

Varys is the dragon/Satan, fAegon and Golden Company is Antichrist, or The Beast out of the sea (with one mortally wounded head that healed itself), Littlefinger is fAegon's false prophet, or The Beast out of the earth. He has dragon's voice, because his ancestor is Aegon IV, and he has lamb's horns, because his other ancestor is Falena Stokeworth (there's a lamb on their banner). In the end of the book he will burn.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_(Revelation)

"The first beast comes "out of the sea" and is given authority and power by the dragon. This first beast is initially mentioned in Revelation 11:7 as coming out of the abyss. His appearance is described in detail in Revelation 13:1-10, and some of the mystery behind his appearance is revealed in Revelation 17:7-18.

The second beast comes "out of the earth" and directs all peoples of the earth to worship the first beast. The second beast is described in Revelation 13:11-18 and is also referred to as the false prophet.

The two beasts are aligned with the dragon in opposition to God. They persecute the "saints" and those who do "not worship the image of the beast [of the sea]" and influence the kings of the earth to gather for the battle of Armageddon.[1] The two beasts are defeated by Christ and are thrown into the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation 19:18-20."

Three heads of the dragon is GRRM's parallel to the Holy Trinity.

  • The Mother - Dany (The Woman clothed in the Sun);
  • The Son - Rhaego. He's not dead. The Stallion that mounts the world, Khal of khals, that will unite all Dothraki, and all people will be his herd. Like Jesus in Revelation is King of kings and Lord of lords, and will guide an army of horsemen on white horses, and will unite all people of the world, and will become their great shepherd. Sword coming out of Jesus' mouth - fire (R'hllor's weapon) coming out of Rhaego's mouth. Rhaego is a crusader;
  • The Holy Ghost - Jon (Agnus Dei, Lamb of God, slain but standing; the real Messiah, who will oppose Antichrist - mummer's dragon, fAegon).

In some of his other, Bible-themed books, GRRM's writing was simpler and more straightforward. Like in "Call him Moses", or "The Way of Cross and Dragon".

13 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

What's the point in leaving breadcrumbs that the average reader will never even come close to piecing together.

"a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone" - AGOT, Tyrion II.

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I think that GRRM is indeed writing an incredibly dense and complex story. That is proven really in that we can look back through the 5 books we already have and discover the detailed foreshadowing that he used. So no I have no doubts that he is creating a rich complex story. But no, not as complex as many fans think as frankly some; ok a large number, of the predictions and theories are impossibly convoluted and strung together on the scantiest of evidence/wishful thinking.

 

Jaquan was just place din the Black Cells as a plot device and a way to introduce the character and the FM.

Something people get their knickers in a twist over is this idea that being a FM it is impossible for him to have made a mistake or been caught short somehow. Therefore he must be in the Black Cells by his own design. But one thing GRRM does do and is easily evidencable through the text, is that he makes believable characters. People are fallible the best of us make mistakes, even a faceless man can get caught out and find himself unable to extricate himself from a situation. Luckily he had Arya to spring him out of it! 

 

I too wonder sometimes if it is possible in two books. I would not be at all surprised if there ended up being 8 in the end. But I think he's trying his best to do it in 7. 

 

He really isn't that out there as a writer, this is still a traditionally structured  story. And whilst the characters break some tropes, in a lot of ways they also conform to the most basic tenants of narrative too. He's taken several archetypal stories and woven them together making a brilliant sprawling epic tale. Telling each antagonists story though their own POV and supporting side characters in such a way that they will eventually all come together culminating in a triumphant but balanced ending. Not everyone will live, some people will make sacrifices and compromises, but it will still have a traditional heroic ending. 

But most of the whacky theorists are not reading the story as it is but seeking to out OMG you guys!!!! each other with ever more tenuous  and implausible ideas. 

GRRM is a scholar he loves history, mythology, fantasy, and the escapism of the fictional world. So of course he has layered all this throughout the story. He's drawing upon many ideas both real world and fairy tale. And there is a brilliant path of breadcrumbs to follow for those readers who are astute enough to spot it. He has spoken about his desire to do this, to reward re-reads, and his three fold fore-shadowing technique. So yes it is complex......But not Ned skinchanged a pigeon and is still with us or Varys is a woman who is fAegon's real mother type complex. 

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18 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Jaquan was just placed in the Black Cells as a plot device and a way to introduce the character and the FM.

Though his route (Black Cells in Red Keep - Harrenhal under Tywin Lannister - Citadel) implies possibility of a different scenario.

He intentionally let himself be captured and placed into Black Cells, because he knew, that there was a secret passage, leading from there to the Hand's Tower (the same passage thru which went Tyrion, to kill Tywin). When he got into that Tower, and didn't found there, what he was looking for, he went after Tywin to get it (whatever it was). And because at that time it was known, that Tywin is in Riverlands, Jaqen hitchhiked Night's Watch wagon, and used them to deliver him closer to Tywin, after that he was going to ditch them. When he went thru Tywin's belongings in Harrenhal, and still didn't find it, he figured out, that that (most likely a) document is somewhere at the Citadel.

If in the next book fPate will find something, that will make him very glad, and he will go back with it to Braavos, then it will the evidence, that his presence in the Black Cells was deliberate, and not just a slipoff. That he was sent by his superiors to the Red Keep, to find that thing.

It could be pages of "Signs and Portents". Or a contract between Iron Bank and Lannisters, or Iron Bank and King Robert Baratheon. Or something else.

For now, based on Euron's connection to Faceless Men, and Rodrick Harlaw mentioning to Asha, that Marwyn claims to have found three pages of "Signs and Portents", and Hotho Harlaw bringing him Marwyn's "Book of Lost Books" from Oldtown, and Euron's plan to invade Oldtown, it seems, that Euron is going there, because he is after the same thing as Jaquen/fPate. And that something is the complete text of the Prophecy about the Promised Prince and Second Long Night, made by Daenys the Dreamer. Or not. We'll see.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Though his route (Black Cells in Red Keep - Harrenhal under Tywin Lannister - Citadel) implies possibility of a different scenario.

He intentionally let himself be captured and placed into Black Cells, because he knew, that there was a secret passage, leading from there to the Hand's Tower (the same passage thru which went Tyrion, to kill Tywin). When he got into that Tower, and didn't found there, what he was looking for, he went after Tywin to get it (whatever it was). And because at that time it was known, that Tywin is in Riverlands, Jaqen hitchhiked Night's Watch wagon, and used them to deliver him closer to Tywin, after that he was going to ditch them. When he went thru Tywin's belongings in Harrenhal, and still didn't find it, he figured out, that that (most likely a) document is somewhere at the Citadel.

And what evidence is there for any of this? 

What evidence is there that he let himself be captured? Or that he knew of the tunnels, or that Tywin would have what he was after or have left it in the tower? Tywin has not been hand of the King in over 15 years!

What evidence is there that he deliberately placed himself with the NW Or that he went through Tywin's belongings in Harrenhall. Especially as by the time he gets there, again, Tywin is not in residence there. Roose Bolton is. 

What evidence is there that this thing he thought Tywin had(no evidence points to him thinking Tywin has anything) is now in the citadel?

Quote

If in the next book fPate will find something, that will make him very glad, and he will go back with it to Braavos, then it will the evidence, that his presence in the Black Cells was deliberate, and not just a slipoff. That he was sent by his superiors to the Red Keep, to find that thing.

It could be pages of "Signs and Portents". Or a contract between Iron Bank and Lannisters, or Iron Bank and King Robert Baratheon. Or something else.

For now, based on Euron's connection to Faceless Men, and Rodrick Harlaw mentioning to Asha, that Marwyn claims to have found three pages of "Signs and Portents", and Hotho Harlaw bringing him Marwyn's "Book of Lost Books" from Oldtown, and Euron's plan to invade Oldtown, it seems, that Euron is going there, because he is after the same thing as Jaquen/fPate. And that something is the complete text of the Prophecy about the Promised Prince and Second Long Night, made by Daenys the Dreamer. Or not. We'll see.

 

How is Jaquen finding the thing he is clearly in Old Town to get; given that he has travelled there of his own free will as opposed to being a captive, and deliberately taken a face which allows him access.  evidence that he was in the black cells deliberately? 

Or that his superiors sent him to the RK?

There are a few theories as to what he is after in Old Town. What evidence is there that your own idea is the most plausible? 

You can not just present a theory as fact and provide zero text support.  

 

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Posted (edited)

Clearly Jaqen's story is still in play - we don't know exactly what his goal might be. One way to find clues is to look at other characters who are also associated with the Black Cells and the dungeon of the Red Keep: Varys (probably Rugen), Rennifer Longwaters, Ser Ilyn Payne, Rorge, Biter, Ned Stark and Tyrion.

On the surface, these characters seem to have nothing in common. But Rennifer gives us an important clue: in the very brief time he is on screen (in the books), he tells Jaime that he is a descendant of Elaena Targaryen, sister of Baelor the Blessed and matriarch of Houses Plumm, Penrose and some Waters (or Longwaters) descendants.

If the message is that people with dragon blood are "hidden" in the Black Cells, only to be reborn later in the story, this adds a layer of possibilities to other characters. I have seen credible theories about Varys and Tyrion as hidden Targs. I could believe that Ser Ilyn also has a hidden backstory that we have not yet heard - although it seems far-fetched at this point that he would be a literal Targ; I could see him as a symbolic Targ, representing "the wrath of Aerys" or something like that.

Can't see at all how Ned Stark would be a hidden Targ, so people could argue that "Black Cells = Targ death and rebirth area" is not valid. However, Ned Stark's bones were supposed to go to the Winterfell crypt and we are told that they never arrived. @sweetsunray proposed an interesting theory that Ned's bones ended up back on the steps of Baelor's Sept, where he was executed, when the sparrows collected bones of holy men and women who died in the war and piled them around the statue of Baelor. Since he couldn't make it back to Winterfell for his rebirth, maybe Ned had to borrow the Targ "crypt" for this purpose.

Of the group of characters associated with the Black Cells, Rorge and Biter are the most closely associated with Jaqen. They just seem like plain old low-life, soulless, horrifying monsters. How could they be hidden Targs? In a nutshell, I think Biter alludes to both dragon teeth and to "bitter," as in Bittersteel. The given name of Bittersteel was Aegor Rivers. It's possible that we are supposed to see the similarity between "Aegor" and Rorge." The Rivers surname could even be similar to Longwaters, if you try to visualize what a Longwater might be in real life. They are still imprisoned on their trip with Yoren toward the Wall, but Arya frees them during an attack by Amory Lorch (known killer of Targaryens) by giving Jaqen an axe. Kind of a Pandora's Box move, in my opinion. But Jaqen subsequently becomes something of an executioner for Arya, perhaps strengthening the parallel to Ser Ilyn.

Edit: I had forgotten about Arya's eavesdropping session which is not in the dungeon per se, but is in the basement of the Red Keep, where all the dragon skulls are kept. This link speculates that Varys has a brother, possibly Qyburn or Marwin, who was the torchbearer who emerged from the well and was overheard by Arya talking treason. There is symbolism around these men that might connect them to Brightflame, the exiled brother of Aegon V, who was featured in the Dunk & Egg novella The Hedge Knight. If they are descendants of Brightflame, they would be more examples of hidden Targs emerging from hidden depths of The Red Keep:

So, to answer your larger question, GRRM is not complex at all. All people who emerge from the Black Cells embody aspects of Targaryens being reborn. Very straightforward.

Luckily, you can enjoy the books by looking beneath the surface or on a more literal level. If people don't like the Targ association, or if it hurts their brains to look for literary clues, they can ignore these layers and still be delighted by the books.

P.S. Just to make things even more interesting, recall that Petyr Baelish controls a lot of the appointed jobs in King's Landing, as Master of Coin. He may have hired Rennifer Longwaters for the undergaoler position. I suspect Littlefinger is also a descendant of Elaena Targaryen, and he was taking care of a cousin and ensuring an ally would keep an eye on the cells. So Varys (as Rugen, the undergaoler) and Baelish (through chief undergaoler Rennifer) and Tywin (through King's Justice Ser Ilyn) all have eyes and ears in the dungeon.

Edited by Seams

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On 5/4/2019 at 5:23 PM, bazookahead said:

My question is how much faith, or how much evidence, do you have that GRRM is writing a story as complex as this site gives it credit for?

A story has never been written as complex as this site seems to believe a song of ice and fire is.  We entertain ourselves when we imagine twists in every page.  Youtubers make their money by proposing complex theories and each of them come up something new each week.  Everybody wants to come up with a new idea to get likes.  

 

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