The underlying logic of the GoT TV show: surprise

[watcher of the night]

D&D are not qualified to finish the story of G.R.R. Martin and they were not hired to do it. Instead of that they are acting on a very simple principle that explains the logic of the TV show after they have run out of the source material: surprise.

Let’s take the last episode:

Melissandre shows up because of surprise.

The Dothraki charge because of surprise. The entire “defense” of Winterfell was organised to give the viewers as many shocking event, as many surprise as possible.

Arya played hide and seek with the zombies in the library because of surprise.

Arya leapt out of thin air because: surprise!

There is nothing behind it. There is no deeper meaning, there is no mystery, no prophecy, nothing; it is all about surprise.

Stannis were killed because of surprise; the Martells were executed in a brutal way because of surprise; Rose and Ramsay and Littlefinger died the way they died because of surprise; Arya was stabbed by the Waif and survived it because of surprise; etc.

They (D&D) do not care about whether it is physically or logistically possible, whether it is reasonable or coherent with the story. If it is not surprising it is not going to be there. They said explicitly after episode 3: Jon and the NK had no duel because it would not be a surprise. The sole measuring stick of storyline building is surprise.

This is a TV show, it is about money and interest. Which episodes generated the biggest interest from the early seasons? Ned’s execution and the Red wedding, because of surprise. D&D are not as dumb as many think, they learned the lesson. Episode 4 is directed by the same director who directed the “Rain’s of Castamere” (red wedding).

What can we predict from this?

There will be plenty of surprises left. What would be the biggest one?

If the dead is still “alive”.

Everyone thinks that the war with the dead is over, there are dozens of post how disappointing and cheap it was.

“As long as I am standing the war is not over” Cersei “Blackfish” Lannister.

Cersei is the Night Queen, she is pregneant with the new NK.

Qyburn will resurrect the dragons beneath KL, perhaps even Balerion the black dread.

There will be a battle at the Trident between the living and the dead (history repeats itself).

There will be other surprises as well …

(I made the same observation on reddit: surprise)

[lomiller]

D&D do tend to make stuff "just happen" with little plausible reason for it playing out that way.  Seriously how the **** can ships ambush a dragon.  Sometimes it's about surprise sometime's it's about their desired dramatic effect.  Credit where it's due, they DID build to Arya killing the NK, but it's one of the few things properly built. 

[Gertrude]

9 minutes ago, lomiller said:

Credit where it's due, they DID build to Arya killing the NK, but it's one of the few things properly built. 

I disagree. No one can argue that she doesn't have the skills. She has earned those skills and the show has demonstrated that. But that's Arya's whole character arc - that she's a hardened killer. It has nothing really to do with gaining skills or knowledge to specifically defeat the NK. Her story in no way intersects with the threat from the North until she finds out about it along with most other people. That's the part that wasn't earned. They needed someone to kill the NK, looked around at plausible candidates and Arya ticked the right boxes, one of the main ones being surprise.

[of man and wolf]

Except the red wedding wasnt just for surprise and neither was Neds death. 

[Gertrude]

2 minutes ago, of man and wolf said:

Except the red wedding wasnt just for surprise and neither was Neds death. 

D&D didn't write that though, that's kind of the point.

[Roux]

3 minutes ago, of man and wolf said:

Except the red wedding wasnt just for surprise and neither was Neds death. 

those were all in the books since the television show has pushed so far past the book writing it's gotten lousy is what the person's point was. No more big reveals are coming from GRRM. They're giving way less spectacular because they're not "real". They're just for television effect. I sort of agree with what they're saying, especially since we're crammed into 6 episodes the season to end it all there's no way they can develop enough story to cover the depth that grrm has in books. 

[of man and wolf]

1 minute ago, Gertrude said:

D&D didn't write that though, that's kind of the point.

so none of what has been shown in the show is happening in the books then? How do we know? And if it does...is GRRM doing that for surprise?

[Roux]

1 minute ago, of man and wolf said:

so none of what has been shown in the show is happening in the books then? How do we know? And if it does...is GRRM doing that for surprise?

We won't know unless he writes the two more books. We're beginning to doubt that he will some people have given up completely and he's ever writing them so this show is all we're going to have for an ending which is sad. I don't think anyone should ever make it film adaptation or a television adaptation until a book series is complete. Either they do they do such a great job that there's no point in finishing the book series or they do such a lousy job that everybody's forever mad that we didn't get a better version. 

[Gertrude]

5 minutes ago, of man and wolf said:

so none of what has been shown in the show is happening in the books then? How do we know? And if it does...is GRRM doing that for surprise?

A lot of the show stuff could very well be happening. I trust GRRM to lead us through the narrative to show us why these events make sense. D&D don't do that. They jump from bullet point to bullet point with just enough connective tissue to make it plausible if you don't think about it too hard.

[of man and wolf]

2 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

A lot of the show stuff could very well be happening. I trust GRRM to lead us through the narrative to show us why these events make sense. D&D don't do that. They jump from bullet point to bullet point with just enough connective tissue to make it plausible if you don't think about it too hard.

true but its not quite so simple when you have a 60 minute tv show with so many stories to finish. There was never going to be enough time. I'll settle for this and hope I get the books immediately after, which is what I think is happening once the series is done with.

[Gertrude]

Keep dreaming :p

I mean, I get that they don't have the time to flesh this out like Martin does. I do get it. I just don't think they are very good writers. They can't write dialog for shit (Tyrion has been reduced to dick jokes and drinking games for a few seasons now). I don't understand why they don't have more writers on a show this size and with this much budget. Yeah, I'm shitting on them, but they betrayed my trust first.

[Greenmonsterff]

16 minutes ago, Roux said:

I don't think anyone should ever make it film adaptation or a television adaptation until a book series is complete. 

Im happy you aren’t in charge or we wouldn’t have this wonderful television show. It might be a weak impression of the source material, but it’s still better than literally every single other thing on television. 

[StarkofWinterfell]

1 hour ago, of man and wolf said:

so none of what has been shown in the show is happening in the books then? How do we know? And if it does...is GRRM doing that for surprise?

He has said that the show has diverged farther from his books in an article that came out today. 

He also said events for some secondary characters are quite different.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1123230/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martin-HBO-ending-books-change-differences-Iron-Throne-die/amp

One of the most telling quotes:

Quote

”The series has been...not completely faithful...”

 

[Roux]

5 hours ago, Greenmonsterff said:

Im happy you aren’t in charge or we wouldn’t have this wonderful television show. It might be a weak impression of the source material, but it’s still better than literally every single other thing on television. 

Right now there is no source material. And we would have it eventually, just not right now. Catch 22 though because without the television show most of us wouldn't know the books existed. Instead we have the half book written half television written. No one says GRRM has to follow what's happened on television at all but if he doesn't a bit it'd get pretty weird. 

[Saturno]

5 hours ago, Greenmonsterff said:

Im happy you aren’t in charge or we wouldn’t have this wonderful television show. It might be a weak impression of the source material, but it’s still better than literally every single other thing on television. 

If you are talking about the visual effects I agree... if you are talking about plot/scheeming/intrigue, then I recommend Rome from HBO and better yet I, CLAVDIVS, this one from 1976.

[Crona]

38 minutes ago, Roux said:

Right now there is no source material. And we would have it eventually, just not right now. Catch 22 though because without the television show most of us wouldn't know the books existed. Instead we have the half book written half television written. No one says GRRM has to follow what's happened on television at all but if he doesn't a bit it'd get pretty weird. 

That’s not quite right. There is plenty of material in the books that can be adapted to television that is not in the show. They simply chose NOT to use the source material. 

[Relic]

6 hours ago, Greenmonsterff said:

Im happy you aren’t in charge or we wouldn’t have this wonderful television show. It might be a weak impression of the source material, but it’s still better than literally every single other thing on television. 

Maybe watch less television and read more books? 

[ummester]

6 minutes ago, Crona said:

That’s not quite right. There is plenty of material in the books that can be adapted to television that is not in the show. They simply chose NOT to use the source material. 

What source material is there that genuinely pushes the main plot forward, involving all the major characters signed up to the show, after Season 4/5?

[Crona]

2 minutes ago, ummester said:

What source material is there that genuinely pushes the main plot forward, involving all the major characters signed up to the show, after Season 4/5?

There are plenty:

The Tyrells still have to face trial for Margery, Loras took Dragonstone, Willas is in Highgarden and sending messages regarding the Ironborn and Garlan is dispatched to Hightowers. Old town is assaulted by Euron and both Euron and Hightowers may use magic in the battle. Mathis Rowan/Mace dispatched to take Storm’s End where Aegon is located. There is also a faceless man in Oldtown.

Dorne wants an alliance with Dany but Quentyn releases the dragons and his fate is currently unknown. However this may cause issues as Aegon also contacts Dorne for an alliance. There is also rogue knight that the Kingsguard is searching for and may uncover information for TOJ.

The Vale has not engaged in any warfare buy their Lord Protector is LF who is secretly planning to take WF. However the lords of the vale may be more difficult to control than he may of thought...

Davos/Manderly court and Davos sent to find Rickon 

Stannis is still alive and sent Justin Massey to Essos for sellswords because the IB backs Stannis now. 

Barristan is Hand to the Queen and fighting for Meeren with Victorian also coming to seek an alliance with Dany for Euron

These all may seem unnecessary but it is the fabric of the story. If these storylines were in the show, so much more of their actions would make sense. Even though the storylines are not finished, it’s easier to see the logic in our characters decisions throughout the story.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

Just because George RR Martin has not finished writing the books (so we think) doesn't mean he doesn't know how it will end. Most writers working with something this big know the major ending points, even before they have the details worked out. It is a recipe for a crap story to write without a specific destination in mind... like on Lost.  This is not Lost. It is not chance. Some characters don't have an end purpose and will be disposed of, but certain events that take place are predetermined. They have hinted that things may go differently than in the books and they have, but that does not mean they are driving without a map and it also does not mean the ending will reflect that of the books. None the less the writers have picked a specific purpose and ending and it isn't just random effects to dazzle us. Whatever it is will fit the story built on HBO and mimic the story in the books in many ways. I have never seen an HBO production that was produced carelessly. They don't take the chances with uncertain scripts like some networks. There is too much money put into this for them to piss it away on a weak story arc.

As for the publishing of the books. I suspect money was paid to prevent their release before this and they will start to come out after the last episode airs. There is a lot of profit to be made by HBO this way. They get to be the first ones to call the game. Martin has finished them. He has published so many other books in between that it looks like he's farting around when in fact he is not.  Just my theory.